A new approach to getting Concealed Carry in Hawaii

[Antithesis]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/us/06guns.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=nonresidents%20utah&st=cse
 
Essentially, the Utah CC permit is recognized in 32 states, including states that have no concealed carry permitting process of their own.  People travel specifically to Utah or to instructors registered to Utah to get their CC permits because it is so widely recognized.   We've been trying to get our own CC passed but it always gets shot down before it even makes it out of the gate.  I'm thinking maybe our approach has been too direct; the change from a very anti-gun climate to CC in Hawaii is just too much of a drastic change for lawmakers and the public. If we took a more round about approach, by getting Hawaii to recognize another state's CC permit might be a heck of a lot easier than trying to introduce CC to Hawaii outright-- especially since 32 other states already recognize the Utah permit.  It would be like adding a detour along the way so the lawmakers and public can get "comfortable" with concealed carry without actually having the fuss and controversy of true concealed carry in the state.  Those of us (which is probably all of us) looking to get CC, would now have a viable option to have a legal CC permit in Hawaii.  It would also be a valuable stepping stone to get our own in-state CC in the near future.

What are your thoughts on this? 

 

James Roe, a 64-year-old computer consultant from rural Pennsylvania, spent a recent Saturday in a Pittsburgh suburb learning about riflings, hangfires and powder charges. The gun safety class was for people seeking a concealed-firearm permit in Utah, some 1,500 miles away. Never mind that Mr. Roe has not been to Utah in 20 years and has no plans to visit anytime soon.


   Like thousands of other gun owners who will most likely never set foot in Utah, Mr. Roe wants a permit there for one reason: It allows him to carry his semiautomatic .45-caliber pistol in 32 other states that recognize or have formal reciprocity with Utah’s gun regulations.
“I think that all states should be as broad based with reciprocity and as careful as the state of Utah is,” said Mr. Roe, who wants the option of taking his handgun with him when he visits his son in Ohio, both for protection and for target practice. (Ohio does not honor Pennsylvania’s firearm permit.)
With the Supreme Court ruling last week that the Second Amendment’s guarantee of an individual’s right to bear arms applies to state and local laws, Utah is a popular player in Americans’ efforts to legally obtain firearms. The state is issuing what has become the permit of choice for many gun owners.
Fifteen years after the Utah Legislature loosened rules on concealed firearm permits by waiving residency and other requirements, the state is increasingly attracting firearm owners from throughout the country. Nearly half of the 241,811 permits granted by the state are now held by nonresidents, according to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification, which administers the permits.
In 2004, Utah received about 8,000 applications for the permits. Last year, 73,925 applications were submitted — with nearly 60 percent coming from nonresidents.
Laws for carrying concealed firearms vary widely by state, as do issuing standards for permits. New York, New Jersey and Connecticut do not honor other states’ permits. Some states, like Florida, allow nonresidents to qualify for permits. Utah stands out because its permit is relatively inexpensive and is broadly accepted, and the requisite safety class can be taken anywhere.
By passing the class and the background check, and paying a $65.25 fee, the applicant receives what many consider to be the most prized gun permit in the country. Permits are good for five years and cost $10 to renew.
Some Second Amendment proponents argue that people with permits are more likely to be law abiding because they have undergone at least some form of background check.
“The spirit of self-defense should not stop at a state’s border,” said Clark Aposhian, a Utah gun lobbyist who sits on the state’s Concealed Firearm Review Board, which helps regulate the permitting process. “Not once has there been a pattern of problems with Utah permit holders in other states.”
But Utah’s permit program has its critics. Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, asserted that Utah’s policy was dangerous because many states were lax in submitting felony and mental health records to the federal database used for background checks.
“I think it’s absolutely shameful and ludicrously irresponsible to say that anybody anywhere who wants one of our concealed-carry permits, and thus will be able to carry legally in dozens of states, can just log on to our Web site and pay 60 bucks and that’s all she wrote,” Mr. Hamm said.
As more people have turned to Utah for permits, the demand for instructors who teach Utah’s gun safety class in other states has increased. Of the 1,097 instructors certified by Utah, 706 are in other states. Advertisements for classes held throughout the country appear widely on the Internet.
Another source of contention is that the class does not require any actual shooting. One could conceivably obtain a Utah permit without ever having fired a gun. Nevada and New Mexico recently stopped honoring Utah permits because the class does not meet its live-fire requirements.
“Residents of other states should be aware that people who have a Utah concealed-weapon permit may not have actually fired a weapon,” said Dee Rowland, chairwoman of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah. “I think that would be quite shocking to members of the public.”
Supporters of Utah’s policy counter that the state’s 50-page curriculum on gun safety, and background checks that are updated every 24 hours, ensure that the system is safe.
“We teach passive defense in Utah,” said State Representative Curtis Oda, a Republican from Clearfield.
“We have no idea what could have happened had there been an armed defender at Columbine and Virginia Tech,” Mr. Oda said, “but we know with absolute certainty what happens when there’s not.”

[2aHawaii]

It sounds like a good approach and maybe it could be introduced at the same time as the concealed carry bill to provide an "out" for the legislators. Still being relatively new to the state legislative process, I wonder if it would help or hurt and possibly divide our efforts.

Ideally, though, I would like to pass our own "shall issue" bill and take back some of our rights from the government.

[Tom_G]

The Utah license is recognized in other states due to reciprocity, meaning Utah also recognizes licenses from those states.  Utah's program is pretty well set up, which is probably why lawmakers in those other states feel comfortable offering reciprocity. 

I can't help but think that Utah lawmakers would probably laugh at the following conversation:

Hawaii: Hey, Utah, we're thinking about recognizing your CC license here.  Would you mind recognizing ours in turn?

Utah: Sure, no worries.  Let us take a look at your program for issuing.  By the way, how many people are we talking about?

Hawaii:  Program?  Nah, we just let our Chief of Police decide.  He's pretty good at knowing who should and who shouldn't be carrying.

Utah:  Wait, say what?

Hawaii:  Yep.  You'd be amazed!  In the last 20 years, we have only issues a single permit to a civilian, and that expired after a year.  It's uncanny, they way our CLEO sniffs out the posers!

Utah:  You're pulling our legs, right?  You've got to be pulling our legs! 

Hawaii:  What's the problem?  We've been doing this for longer than most of our residents have been alive.  Truthfully, it dates back to the big land grab we pulled here.

Utah:  Ok, I'm going to hang up now. 

[vooduchikn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/us/06guns.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=nonresidents%20utah&st=cse
 
Essentially, the Utah CC permit is recognized in 32 states, including states that have no concealed carry permitting process of their own.  People travel specifically to Utah or to instructors registered to Utah to get their CC permits because it is so widely recognized.   We've been trying to get our own CC passed but it always gets shot down before it even makes it out of the gate.  I'm thinking maybe our approach has been too direct; the change from a very anti-gun climate to CC in Hawaii is just too much of a drastic change for lawmakers and the public. If we took a more round about approach, by getting Hawaii to recognize another state's CC permit might be a heck of a lot easier than trying to introduce CC to Hawaii outright-- especially since 32 other states already recognize the Utah permit.  It would be like adding a detour along the way so the lawmakers and public can get "comfortable" with concealed carry without actually having the fuss and controversy of true concealed carry in the state.  Those of us (which is probably all of us) looking to get CC, would now have a viable option to have a legal CC permit in Hawaii.  It would also be a valuable stepping stone to get our own in-state CC in the near future.

What are your thoughts on this? 

 

James Roe, a 64-year-old computer consultant from rural Pennsylvania, spent a recent Saturday in a Pittsburgh suburb learning about riflings, hangfires and powder charges. The gun safety class was for people seeking a concealed-firearm permit in Utah, some 1,500 miles away. Never mind that Mr. Roe has not been to Utah in 20 years and has no plans to visit anytime soon.


   Like thousands of other gun owners who will most likely never set foot in Utah, Mr. Roe wants a permit there for one reason: It allows him to carry his semiautomatic .45-caliber pistol in 32 other states that recognize or have formal reciprocity with Utah’s gun regulations.
“I think that all states should be as broad based with reciprocity and as careful as the state of Utah is,” said Mr. Roe, who wants the option of taking his handgun with him when he visits his son in Ohio, both for protection and for target practice. (Ohio does not honor Pennsylvania’s firearm permit.)
With the Supreme Court ruling last week that the Second Amendment’s guarantee of an individual’s right to bear arms applies to state and local laws, Utah is a popular player in Americans’ efforts to legally obtain firearms. The state is issuing what has become the permit of choice for many gun owners.
Fifteen years after the Utah Legislature loosened rules on concealed firearm permits by waiving residency and other requirements, the state is increasingly attracting firearm owners from throughout the country. Nearly half of the 241,811 permits granted by the state are now held by nonresidents, according to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification, which administers the permits.
In 2004, Utah received about 8,000 applications for the permits. Last year, 73,925 applications were submitted — with nearly 60 percent coming from nonresidents.
Laws for carrying concealed firearms vary widely by state, as do issuing standards for permits. New York, New Jersey and Connecticut do not honor other states’ permits. Some states, like Florida, allow nonresidents to qualify for permits. Utah stands out because its permit is relatively inexpensive and is broadly accepted, and the requisite safety class can be taken anywhere.
By passing the class and the background check, and paying a $65.25 fee, the applicant receives what many consider to be the most prized gun permit in the country. Permits are good for five years and cost $10 to renew.
Some Second Amendment proponents argue that people with permits are more likely to be law abiding because they have undergone at least some form of background check.
“The spirit of self-defense should not stop at a state’s border,” said Clark Aposhian, a Utah gun lobbyist who sits on the state’s Concealed Firearm Review Board, which helps regulate the permitting process. “Not once has there been a pattern of problems with Utah permit holders in other states.”
But Utah’s permit program has its critics. Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, asserted that Utah’s policy was dangerous because many states were lax in submitting felony and mental health records to the federal database used for background checks.
“I think it’s absolutely shameful and ludicrously irresponsible to say that anybody anywhere who wants one of our concealed-carry permits, and thus will be able to carry legally in dozens of states, can just log on to our Web site and pay 60 bucks and that’s all she wrote,” Mr. Hamm said.
As more people have turned to Utah for permits, the demand for instructors who teach Utah’s gun safety class in other states has increased. Of the 1,097 instructors certified by Utah, 706 are in other states. Advertisements for classes held throughout the country appear widely on the Internet.
Another source of contention is that the class does not require any actual shooting. One could conceivably obtain a Utah permit without ever having fired a gun. Nevada and New Mexico recently stopped honoring Utah permits because the class does not meet its live-fire requirements.
“Residents of other states should be aware that people who have a Utah concealed-weapon permit may not have actually fired a weapon,” said Dee Rowland, chairwoman of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah. “I think that would be quite shocking to members of the public.”
Supporters of Utah’s policy counter that the state’s 50-page curriculum on gun safety, and background checks that are updated every 24 hours, ensure that the system is safe.
“We teach passive defense in Utah,” said State Representative Curtis Oda, a Republican from Clearfield.
“We have no idea what could have happened had there been an armed defender at Columbine and Virginia Tech,” Mr. Oda said, “but we know with absolute certainty what happens when there’s not.”

 
My license is from Utah. The class is very quick and easy and the process for application is affordable and pretty painless. There is a guy on the big Island that teaches the class. He comes over here often and will teach the class in a few hours to groups or one on one. Nice thing about Utah is that you don't have to be a resident to apply.
 
Utah recognizes most of the other CC states licenses, but Utah law applies when you are carrying in Utah on another states CC license and vice versus. This is pretty much true across the board. I highly doubt Hawaii will adopt blindy adopt Utah CC laws and licensing instead of passing its own, but I definitely support the effort. Good idea, now how to put it into motion?
 

[2aHawaii]

It's funny that this topic came up now. It looks like Utah may try for "constitutional carry"

Some state lawmakers want to loosen Utah’s already liberal gun laws by following the Last Frontier’s example and allowing any legal gun owner to pack a concealed weapon without a permit.

Americans’ constitutional gun rights don’t start with permit training, and they aren’t restricted to the home, said Rep. Stephen Sandstrom, R-Orem. This summer he is crafting a bill based on an Alaska model to remove the permit requirement while continuing to provide the option for those who want a license that other states with gun restrictions will honor. He had been calling the proposal “Alaska carry,” but after this week’s Supreme Court ruling on handguns he is pitching it as “constitutional carry.”

“The Second Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms,” Sandstrom said, emphasizing the “and.” “It doesn’t just say ‘to keep arms.’ ”

More than 226,000 people — including 125,000 Utahns — had Utah concealed-weapons permits as of March 31, according to state records, and 13,122 got their permits during the first quarter of the year.

Utah traditionally has had some of the most pro-gun laws in the country. The Legislature has overridden local restrictions, including a gun ban on the University of Utah campus. This year lawmakers followed Montana in exempting local gun makers from federal restrictions, a constitutional showdown that Montana gun-rights advocates are attempting to validate in court.

Utahns already have an implied right to carry guns in plain view to most places, because there is no law banning it. To carry a concealed weapon, though, the state requires gun owners to take a safety course, submit to a background check and pay a $65 application fee. The state does not require a shooting proficiency test, which has caused several states including Nevada to stop recognizing Utah permits. Renewals and updated background checks are required every five years.

The Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification conducts daily checks of Utah court records to determine whether permit holders are still eligible to possess weapons. The bureau searches national databases every few months. Alcohol violations, protective orders, firearm offenses, domestic violence and felonies are common reasons for losing a permit. Revocations spiked from 75 in 1999 to 256 in 2000, the year the bureau began the daily checks. The state revoked 409 permits last year.

Sandstrom said he is meeting with gun-rights advocates and plans a bill for consideration in the next legislative session. He claims wide support among House colleagues, and Rep. Curtis Oda, R-Clearfield, is one of the likely co-sponsors.

“There’s a bunch of us talking about it right now,” Oda said.

Some lawmakers and police officers are wary of the proposal.

“We really are going back to the Wild West, aren’t we?” said Rep. Brian King, D-Salt Lake City.

King said he would need more information — support from police officers, for instance — before he could vote for such a change. The U.S. Supreme Court this week overturned a Chicago ban on handguns, he noted, but did not prohibit “reasonable restrictions” on gun owners. Getting a permit is not difficult, he said, and requiring some training is reasonable.

“We ought to ask ourselves, do we really want to increase the number of people carrying guns around?” King said. “Why is that a good idea?”

To Sandstrom and Oda, it’s good because it arms people who may be threatened by criminals who already ignore gun laws. “Gangbangers are going to carry concealed weapons irregardless,” Sandstrom said.

But the Utah Peace Officers Association likes the current permit system. Everyone with a right to gun ownership who wants a permit can get one, said association board member Michael Galieti, a Cottonwood Heights police officer.

“The system as it is works to everyone’s benefit, and for the safety of the police officer as well as the safety of the citizen,” Galieti said. “We’re not aware of any situations where anyone has been unreasonably denied a permit.”

[HiCarry]

But the Utah Peace Officers Association likes the current permit system. Everyone with a right to gun ownership who wants a permit can get one, said association board member Michael Galieti, a Cottonwood Heights police officer.

“The system as it is works to everyone’s benefit, and for the safety of the police officer as well as the safety of the citizen,” Galieti said. “We’re not aware of any situations where anyone has been unreasonably denied a permit.”

        I can't help but ask myself what that police officer would think of the permit system if he were subject to its restrictions and requirements as the rest of us are? After all, he doesn't "need" a permit to carry off-duty......but what if he did? Would he still be supportive of the system as it exists now?