Shot a handgun course over the weekend with a Glock 17 with Trijicon RMR.  This was in a handgun course level that I had taken before with this group, so I felt it was a good environment to test out the handgun with RMR set up.  That and it's ALWAYS good to work on fundamentals, especially since I haven't shot that much in the past year. 

Going in, I was wondering how I would pick up the dot on the draw as well as in between shots.  Got to experience that and came away with things I can work on with the instructors as well as things that I'd like to work on in general.  The two instructors also had differing experience on handgun with red dots, which I found helpful to have a range of perspectives. 

Some highlights:
1) Sloppiness and bad habits that I have with trigger control was apparent in the first live fire exercise (one hole drill).  Something that I am aware of and actually spend quite a bit of time doing ball and dummy drills.  This tendency seems to creep in both when I haven't shot in a while and after going through periods where I've been shooting quite a bit, but not that much on paper.  While I was happy that I was able to clean things up for the second pass at the one hole drill and subsequent drills, always humbling to see that your fundamentals could use some work.  While I was actually "ok" with the first group that I shot, the instructor noticed it.  I also think that maybe shooting with the dot allowed me to relax a bit one some of the drills where I am normally concentrating on the front sight, I think things tended to "wander".

2) I definitely noticed the "dot twitch", where the dot always seems to be moving where the front sight seems stable.  Having shot this level course before, I was trying to push myself to "aim smaller".  One target had a logo for an aim point in the middle of a target circle, but that logo also had smaller points that allowed a smaller POA.  That's where I was really noticing the dot jump.  I had noticed it before and read about it some.  Would discuss briefly with both instructors.  Not a bad thing, but something I noticed.  In some of the drills where I was pushing for more speed, I had to push "not letting the dot hover" and just pick a "good enough" and go. 

3) Picking up the dot in between shots is something I definitely noticed and something I think I can clean up with shooting more regularly.  The cadence drills certainly helped to see that and I think those will help that moving forward.  But on another drill that called for multiple shots and I was trying to push it, the instructor commented on how I didn't seem to be pushing it enough since my target was still relatively clean.  I found that I was waiting on the dot in some cases.  I should be shooting this gun flat enough that I thought it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but definitely something I'll have to work on. 

4) Gun manipulations with the red dot is a little different.  Actually easier in one case in one method that one of the instructors recommended and I see it coming into play more with malfunction clearance.

5) There is a definite learning curve with the red dot for me.  Something I'll have to spend time on and think about if I really want to stick with it.  I think so, but I just hope to get in more range time with it in order to give it a fair shake.

Overall, it was a SUPER fun day on the range.  Always fun shooting with this group.  It was a repeat for me, so it was great to see some familiar faces that were taking the class again, which I think is always great.  I'd personally would shoot with this group on any level class that they offer as I always end the day having improved and found things that I need to improve.  It was also great to see a bunch of new faces with in shooting classes for the first time.  One was an AWESOME shooter.  I was shooting next to him all day, but in different relays.  While it's not a competition, I can honestly say that that pushed me to focus more.  I was also shooting next two a guy I had shot with in a carbine class before with this group.  He's a really good shooter too, and there was definitely some friendly competition going on.  All good fun and great to see folks putting in the time to get training and having a really good time in doing so. 

No gear changes or wants after the course, which is unusual for me.  Just need more ammo now.   

Sounds like a great day!  Often people underestimate the benefits of getting back to a foundational or fundamentals type of course.  Obviously, the training group presenting the material is critical, but many people (especially males) don't realize the value in taking, or repeating a "Foundational" level course and often ego gets in the way of progression.  Great to see you putting in the work, and it shows!

Sounds like a great day!  Often people underestimate the benefits of getting back to a foundational or fundamentals type of course.  Obviously, the training group presenting the material is critical, but many people (especially males) don't realize the value in taking, or repeating a "Foundational" level course and often ego gets in the way of progression.  Great to see you putting in the work, and it shows!

It was an awesome day for sure!  The weather conditions made for an interesting and soggy day. . .   

I've always been one to often go back to fundamentals (esp with shooting) and really appreciate instructors and training groups that both stress the importance of that as well as put in the work on those themselves.  Totally hear you on the ego thing.  I had a couple of buddies who I really wanted to take this course, but they felt that "foundational" wouldn't benefit them.  A couple of others had drill that weekend, but were down to go.  Hopefully I'll be able to get them to come out in the near future. 

It was an awesome day for sure!  The weather conditions made for an interesting and soggy day. . .   

I've always been one to often go back to fundamentals (esp with shooting) and really appreciate instructors and training groups that both stress the importance of that as well as put in the work on those themselves.  Totally hear you on the ego thing.  I had a couple of buddies who I really wanted to take this course, but they felt that "foundational" wouldn't benefit them.  A couple of others had drill that weekend, but were down to go.  Hopefully I'll be able to get them to come out in the near future.

As discussed, I get it, and in their defense, they have no knowledge behind this training groups concept and the training approach that they employ in the "Foundational" course that you took.  Conceptually the progression of training, drills and more importantly how the drills can be executed by the individual is not something we have seen anywhere from a "base" level course.

I have yet to see anyone's base level course be able to hold the attention and test any shooter skill level from newer shooter all the way through advanced shooter.  The concept was formulated by doing workups specifically for high-level shooters in select .mil and LE units pre-deployment.  It is dubbed "Extreme Fundamentals" and is one course in a series of Advanced Diagnostics courses that was developed by that training group, and concepts from those courses can be seen in the base level course. 

In fact, we have seen the same reaction as your buddies to the name "Extreme Fundamentals" by some pretty serious shooters.  Invariably guys are literally sweating bullets in that course, not because it is physically challenging, but mentally and emotionally challenging.  You finish that course as fatigued as any physically oriented course and guys can't wait to do it again or the next in the series.  Hopefully, they are able to offer that series here someday.

 

Discussion on the carbine on safe during mag changes. Had gone through similar in a carbine class last spring and somewhat again in a skill builder. Haven’t worked on it since, but this article brought it back.

https://www.ballisticmag.com/2018/12/25/carbine-safety-mag-change/?fbclid=IwAR3K89mJzfUgU68HutVVgkMsJ_gh3eYwTSncH_9uiZ8kr5rrDj4c26ZbJVE&utm_campaign=meetedgar&utm_medium=social&utm_source=meetedgar.com

Discussion on the carbine on safe during mag changes. Had gone through similar in a carbine class last spring and somewhat again in a skill builder. Haven’t worked on it since, but this article brought it back.

https://www.ballisticmag.com/2018/12/25/carbine-safety-mag-change/?fbclid=IwAR3K89mJzfUgU68HutVVgkMsJ_gh3eYwTSncH_9uiZ8kr5rrDj4c26ZbJVE&utm_campaign=meetedgar&utm_medium=social&utm_source=meetedgar.com

As always, PMac is 100% right on. 

As always, PMac is 100% right on.

A friend in AZ took a course from him and he was trying really hard to convince me into joining him.  He agreed that the Scrambler was "very interesting".   

I'm surprised this is even a topic to discuss.  HDF carbine skill builders have taught me well.

I'm surprised this is even a topic to discuss.  HDF carbine skill builders have taught me well.

You'd be surprised at what a lot of people don't know. . .

You'd be surprised at what a lot of people don't know. . .

if you don't know, you betta aks somebody...

if you don't know, you betta aks somebody...

If u know, u know bah! 

Excellent points on preparing for a training class.  Luckily, I sought out advice prior to my starting getting into classes and have received advice similar to much of what is mentioned in this video.  I've also witnessed much of what is mentioned as well. 

Good vid, I'll send it to my noob friend.

He just got his first gun, so I told him when he takes a HDF class when he's ready, #1 Sharpie.  #2 Ears open, mouth shut.

Good vid, I'll send it to my noob friend.

He just got his first gun, so I told him when he takes a HDF class when he's ready, #1 Sharpie.  #2 Ears open, mouth shut.

And don’t be “that guy”. Has varying meaning, but one if the last HDF shoot (that I attended) was guy who the groups was always waiting on. You don’t see that are much in paid courses, but never want to be “that guy”.

And don’t be “that guy”. Has varying meaning, but one if the last HDF shoot (that I attended) was guy who the groups was always waiting on. You don’t see that are much in paid courses, but never want to be “that guy”.

if you are looking around the class and you don't see "that guy", guess what?

if you are looking around the class and you don't see "that guy", guess what?

Burn

Burn

heads

if you are looking around the class and you don't see "that guy", guess what?

Whatchu talkin’ bout Willis?

Whatchu talkin’ bout Willis?

focus

focus

Definitely noticed a few of them. One kept fiddling with their gear on the side and another didn’t grasp the concept of “load up your mags”. The marker example also came up.

You weren’t there, so you’re safe.  Injured reserve is always valid reason. 

Thats odd I thought youd do it the reverse way.  2 points are great if you have to carry stuff, jump over walls, and move but are slower to use.  Better for real life stuff.

1 point is good if you are static and are fast to use, which is good for training courses and competition.

The single point attaches in less than a second.  The Vickers has a QD on the rail, but needs to be wrapped around in the butt stock.  This takes way longer to set up

Interesting to read an old thread.  I noticed because I do a high ready when reloading, I get a blister on my middle finger due to the sling restricting the high ready angle.  Compared to when reloading with no sling, I can point the muzzle higher and tuck the butt stock more under the arm pit and the trigger guard doesn't rub on my middle finger.  The sling is a loose as it can be, but tight enough so when needed, the rifle doesn't hang low when pulled tight by the tab.  It's snug against the body so can run easier and not buss up the knees.

Could I buy a longer or different one, yes I could. But since I only use the sling once a year, it makes due for now.  And I can spend $$$ on other items.

I've learned a lot since 2018 and to read my comments, much of my thought process has changed.

Spoke to the wife and she wants to try this class.  Prob start with pistol.

Thanks for starting this thread.