Classes at Frontsight/Sig (Read 7164 times)

TooFewPews

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2019, 04:24:50 PM »
because if you cannot beat the test, the next best alternative is to try and game it...

in the second half of day 2 and for all of day 3, we were running both relays.  it resulted in a lot of shooting-induced overexertion.


Just an observation, if you want to take the skills test but don't want to waste time at the lectures then I would recommend the 2 day HG skill builder.  It has most of the shooting in the 4 day but none of the lectures.  You basically do a few hours of fundamental/safety review then you start shooting different parts of the skills test, run through short versions of the test, and the whole test, etc...  it is a class designed to get those on the edge, over the line. No man-on-man competition, no lectures, just practice the skills test.  They use the turning targets which can be good or bad depending on the person.  It can add more pressure because the targets "disappear" and are noisy.  It gives you a fraction of a second more time because you can draw on the sound of the actuators just before they start to turn (not a rule but my observation) and keep shooting until the target is 90 degrees (angled shots are accepted as long as the hole crosses the line).

the class does more total shooting than the 2 day but less than the 4 day.  I like it. :love:

thanks for the tip.  i was considering getting the private training membership so that i could DG the handgun test and then immediately try to squeeze the 4-day practical rifle class into a 2-day period.  the practical rifle test doesn't seem that difficult.

I'll post pics of the skills test requirements below for your reference.




« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 04:31:50 PM by TooFewPews »

rustyeleio

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2019, 04:34:16 PM »
I'd agree with that.  The practical rifle was easier to pass but physically more tiring due to the weight of the rifle (yes, I am out of shape) and going friggen prone was hard on my knees even with pads (I have bad knees already due to high school sports).  I think the dreaded type 3 malfunction is not timed, just have to do it right.  I think going prone is optional in the test but it sure does make that 100yd shot easier to guarantee.  You have to get down fast which is why my knees were busted up, probably bad technique too.   :rofl:

TooFewPews

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2019, 05:01:28 PM »
I'd agree with that.  The practical rifle was easier to pass but physically more tiring due to the weight of the rifle (yes, I am out of shape) and going friggen prone was hard on my knees even with pads (I have bad knees already due to high school sports).  I think the dreaded type 3 malfunction is not timed, just have to do it right.  I think going prone is optional in the test but it sure does make that 100yd shot easier to guarantee.  You have to get down fast which is why my knees were busted up, probably bad technique too.   :rofl:

For the practical rifle test, do you use the same target paper as the handgun test?  in other words, are all of the shots (except for the head shots) scored based on the normal-sized thoracic cavity target paper?

zippz

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2019, 05:13:24 PM »
For the practical rifle test, do you use the same target paper as the handgun test?  in other words, are all of the shots (except for the head shots) scored based on the normal-sized thoracic cavity target paper?

Targets are the same for all courses.  I brought home a few targets that I can copy.  I DGd on handgun, rifle, and shotgun so I can train whomever needs help to pass it.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

rustyeleio

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2019, 05:21:46 PM »
For the practical rifle test, do you use the same target paper as the handgun test?  in other words, are all of the shots (except for the head shots) scored based on the normal-sized thoracic cavity target paper?

I am 99.5% sure it was the same target.

Another interesting observation.  The practical rifle class had a mix of optics.  I would say mostly red dot (some with magnifier), some low power scope, few iron sights.  I used a 1-4x and kept it at 1x up to 50 yd and upped it to 2x at 100yd.  Technically, they said whatever setting you used for the close shots should be the starting setting for every shot and any change to higher mag has to come after the beep.  I subtly changed to 2x as I was walking back to the 100yd  so I gamed it a little... :wave:  Guys with red dot magnifiers were told to flip the magnifier after the beep.

Surf

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2019, 07:52:10 PM »
No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs.  That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason.  I still cringe at the name Front Sight.  I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.   

rustyeleio

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2019, 09:44:39 PM »
No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs.  That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason.  I still cringe at the name Front Sight.  I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.

Please explain.  Just want to be sure that how you think those terms are being used at that school is how they are actually used at that school.  I mean, I know Front Sight is the Mcdonald's  or Walmart of shooting schools but sometimes I like to eat at Mcdonalds and I love Walmart. :love:

TooFewPews

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2019, 09:47:10 PM »
Targets are the same for all courses.  I brought home a few targets that I can copy.  I DGd on handgun, rifle, and shotgun so I can train whomever needs help to pass it.

I scanned the thoracic cavity portion and turned it into a PDF. I’ll post it later so people can print as many copies as they want for practicing. The head is just a box so I figured that it isn’t as critical to get the target into the perfect shape.

No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs.  That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason.  I still cringe at the name Front Sight.  I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.   

I think that the training at FS for the introductory courses is extremely dated. In that respect, I agree with you and I went into it knowing full well that I would probably not learn much. I ended up learning a lot, but it wasn’t a result of their instruction. It was nice to be able to get a ton of reps in, which we can’t get on island as civilians. I also got a chance to practice at various distances that I wouldn’t be able to practice at normally; the 25 yard bullseye range at Koko Head is pretty limiting and indoor ranges can get expensive quickly.

FS also has rifle ranges that go out to almost 1,000 yards so I would be really looking forward to trying that out.

I’m not endorsing FS in any way, but it’s basically free training (excluding the cost of ammo).  Also, it gives me another reason to visit my dad in Phoenix, which isn’t very far from Vegas/Pahrump. I’d probably pay a decent amount of money to someone who could provide quality private training locally, but I don’t know anyone that could host at a suitable venue.

TooFewPews

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2019, 06:52:20 AM »
here's a PDF of the Thoracic Cavity in case any of you wanted to hang something up on your wall or print it and take it to the range for life fire practice.

To print the full TC on one piece of paper, make sure that you are using an 11x17" tabloid size paper.

TC - for printing on Tabloid (11x17”) paper
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18QHwjyygKlvQhcqvKRFZWDKjHeG57LHY/view?usp=sharing



For those of you that are printing on normal 8.5x11" paper, here is the two-piece TC for printing on the standard 8.5x11" paper.
make sure that you set your printer to 100% scale.  there will be some overlap for the TC, but that was intentional due to the print margins of a lot of printers.  use the numbers at the top and bottom to line up the left and right sides.

TC - Left Side
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLoVYjZyuY3eABX2oBsi9W53_XbiKlxn/view?usp=sharing

TC - Right Side
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qCUxopTzTgbynBrvsoeThOos-7q_-wWl/view?usp=sharing

RSN172

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2019, 07:28:34 AM »
Most of us who have FS memberships probably also have a lot of FS credits which can't be used to buy a lot of the good stuff in the Pro Shop.  I use mine to pay for the yearly bg check, to shoot the machine gun and the targets.  I got a bunch of the regular and hostage targets when I was there at the end of Feb.  I also bought some gray masking tape from Amazon to tape the bullet holes.  I hate the standard color masking tape they use there to tape over the gray target.

zippz

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2019, 12:43:03 PM »
No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs.  That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason.  I still cringe at the name Front Sight.  I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.

Front Sight is far from the best for training cirriculum, but I believe it's the best overall place for most people.  Most premium shooting schools are for the top 5% of shooters.  Front Sight caters to the other 95%.  The curriculum leaves a lot of room for improvement, but it's the 80% answer for most people who would otherwise not take other courses.  Travel and course costs are about half of other schools.  There's a lot to do nearby.  Usually family and friends to visit in Nevada.  And Front Sight is family friendly, even for kids.  It's extremely difficult to pitch other schools to the average shooter in Hawaii.  When tell someone  Front Sight is cheap and near Las Vegas, it sells itself.  They probably train 3,00 students a week so it's a good service for the 2nd Amendment.

What I get out of it is cheap training while I take my annual trip to Las Vegas, see other teaching techniques, and learn demographics and what it takes to get the average person to attend training.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

drck1000

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2019, 01:15:34 PM »
Most premium shooting schools are for the top 5% of shooters. 
Just curious, who or what groups are you thinking about for "premium shooting schools"? 

I've been to many that definitely helped the "bottom" 95%.  Everyone's gotta start somewhere and many instructors/schools realize this as well as are very much geared to helping them improve.  I've seen it first hand.   

zippz

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2019, 02:22:35 PM »
Just curious, who or what groups are you thinking about for "premium shooting schools"? 

I've been to many that definitely helped the "bottom" 95%.  Everyone's gotta start somewhere and many instructors/schools realize this as well as are very much geared to helping them improve.  I've seen it first hand.

The volume shows it.

Sig, Gunsite, Thunderranch and others may train a hundred or two hundred in a week?  If they could support larger classes they probably would have by now.

Years ago Front Sight at peak times was training over 2,000 students per week, then doubled their range capacity.  Probably training close to 3,000 now.  That's the 95% market.  I see whole families attending classes.  People that pick up a gun for the first time. Law enforcement and military.   If you wanted to create a firearms training facility that could train thousands of students at a time, it would look like FS.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2019, 05:02:24 PM »
The volume shows it.

Sig, Gunsite, Thunderranch and others may train a hundred or two hundred in a week?  If they could support larger classes they probably would have by now.

Years ago Front Sight at peak times was training over 2,000 students per week, then doubled their range capacity.  Probably training close to 3,000 now.  That's the 95% market.  I see whole families attending classes.  People that pick up a gun for the first time. Law enforcement and military.   If you wanted to create a firearms training facility that could train thousands of students at a time, it would look like FS.

FS is selling more than just firearm training. They offer assistance for CCW applications in many states (I have NV, FL and UT thanks to their classes, fingerprinting, notary and application assistance).  They offer vacations, with space for RVs and future facilities for lodging, eating and shopping.

As stated, locality is a big draw.  Pahrump has many hotel/casino/restaurant choices, and Vegas is only an hour away.  That location also has tolerable weather most of the year.  They also offer youth achievement programs for children with wall climbing and similar activities.

Quote
In addition, they will explore ropes activities, Martial Arts, and firearms. All activities are age-appropriate and extremely safe.
Your children will be challenged "by choice". In other words, they will never be forced to participate in an activity that makes them
uncomfortable.

If you don't like to see dirt and sand being moved around, fast forward to 5:30 time mark:


"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

zippz

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2019, 09:11:04 PM »

If you don't like to see dirt and sand being moved around, fast forward to 5:30 time mark:

I thought they'd never build the pavilion so I'm pleasantly surprised they're actually doing it.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

RSN172

Re: Classes at Frontsight/Sig
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2019, 10:42:20 PM »
I am waiting for the day I can use my 10 hotel certificates.