Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now? (Read 92781 times)

Funtimes

Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« on: March 26, 2014, 06:08:56 PM »
Since the decision a lot of people have been asking what is going on.  Well, let’s try and break this down a little bit:

1.)    Our decision basically rides on the Peruta v. San Diego case.  That case was argued earlier in the morning than Baker was argued.  Therefore, the decision in that case was released prior.  Instead of writing a new decision, the (3) judge panel basically said, “Hey, look at this case – it says why Baker should win.”  Our case then had its preliminary injunction vacated and remanded to the district court to be heard in light of Peruta.   Remember, a preliminary injunction was us basically saying, “This is so jacked up that you should give me a carry license while we wait to figure out the merits of the case.”   We still have to handle the merits. The preliminary injunction was just our first bite at the apple; sadly, it was a bite that took about 3 years to chew (It’s a really long dinner…).

2.)   The Peruta case has some stuff going on with it.  Basically, after San Diego lost they decided that they were no longer going to defend the matter in court. Their white flag went up and they are surrendering.  The State of California Attorney General’s Office, saw this white flag, and were like, “Oh shit. An unconstitutional law needs saving!”  So off they ran to the courts to ask if they can pinch hit for the San Diego Sheriff.   
This had some problems, because everyone thought the game was over.  So they did some voodoo magic and filed some documents asking the 9th circuit court if they can play ball.   This matter is currently pending before the court and has not been ruled on.
Why do we care if the Attorney general gets a chance to swing? Well. Good question!  After a 3 judge panel makes a ruling, the parties involved have an option to ask the entire court or generally a significantly larger panel, which in the 9th circuit would be 11 justices instead of 3, to rehear the case in question.  This process is called en banc. 

So, if that wasn’t a pain in the ass enough – if the parties involved don’t want to do this, the judges that were on the panel can do it themselves! To make it even better, judges who were not on the panel can also call for a vote.    Once a vote is held or not held, then we kind of know how this will proceed.
Lastly, there are some timelines to this stuff, and a few of them are passing as we speak.  The problem is that because this is such a huge cluster of crap, we don’t even think that the courts or anyone involved are 100% sure of what deadlines have passed and what is to be heard next.

3.)   Just the other day in our case, Judge Alan Kay (our judge) got notice of all this stuff.  He complied with the 9th Circuit and dismissed a section of the case as directed.  Then, he put the State of Hawaii and the Attorney General back on legal notice that a law on the books has been implicated.   This was kind of necessary, because the State and the AG previously ducked out of the suit saying they didn’t want anything to do with it.  Well, now they are going to have to come back and play some ball.

4.)   The future:   We wait.  I know. I know.  And, I really hate it too!  There isn’t too much to do right now.  We have to see how Peruta is ultimately disposed of.  If it stand, carry is a win hands down.  If they start playing legal games with Peruta, we could be stayed or put on hold for a very long time.   Best case scenario is we could be exercising our rights by summer time.  Worst case scenario means we could be waiting a few more years for things to play out in the 9th circuit on a single case.

Lastly, I want people to know that we can still use donations.  If you like the work we are doing, please help us out.  Send a few bucks our way.  We had to bear all the costs of that appeal, which was probably in the realm of 12k dollars.  If you want to help us out, you can do so online at www.thehdf.org/donate/ or by mail at 99-040 Kauhale St. #1798, Aiea, HI 96701.   If you have any questions, I’m available through e-mail at Chris@thehdf.org.  If you really need me, we can talk (just shoot me an e-mail first) and I will be happy to speak with you on the phone.

Blessings to everyone!  We are still fighting – 3 years strong!
Christopher Baker

MisterEd

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 10:01:52 AM »
Th ank youfor the update, Chris...

Laser_Jock_Mauna_Kea

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2014, 07:28:00 PM »
Great work on the court case guys.

I love Hawaii but really miss CCW.

So I called the Big Island Hawaii Police Department today to request an application for CCW.

After about 5 phone transfers 5 disconnects and an hour of trying I was connected to the Records division. (call the Police and order a Pizza ....see which one shows up first)

I requested an application for a permit. They responded they had been getting lots of requests due to the lawsuit but no such application exists.

I was told the only method on the Big Island was to write a letter directly to Police Chief Harry S. Kubojiri  and essentially beg for him to allow me  the basic exercise of my civil liberties. It wasn't clear if genuflection was required or not.

I pointed out this was a direct contradiction of Baker and Peruta......she confirmed, yes, indeed it was.  I asked again for a formal application and was told that no such application exists.

It occurs to me that while recording these phone calls is a good first step, it would be better to conduct these conversations via email as that would provide me an unequivocal transcript of our communications which could be subpoenaed later or FOIA-ed. However, email addresses for our public servants doesn't appear to be ...well, public.

Does anybody have an email list for the relevant people?

macsak

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2014, 07:42:00 PM »
Great work on the court case guys.

I love Hawaii but really miss CCW.

So I called the Big Island Hawaii Police Department today to request an application for CCW.

After about 5 phone transfers 5 disconnects and an hour of trying I was connected to the Records division. (call the Police and order a Pizza ....see which one shows up first)

I requested an application for a permit. They responded they had been getting lots of requests due to the lawsuit but no such application exists.

I was told the only method on the Big Island was to write a letter directly to Police Chief Harry S. Kubojiri  and essentially beg for him to allow me  the basic exercise of my civil liberties. It wasn't clear if genuflection was required or not.

I pointed out this was a direct contradiction of Baker and Peruta......she confirmed, yes, indeed it was.  I asked again for a formal application and was told that no such application exists.

It occurs to me that while recording these phone calls is a good first step, it would be better to conduct these conversations via email as that would provide me an unequivocal transcript of our communications which could be subpoenaed later or FOIA-ed. However, email addresses for our public servants doesn't appear to be ...well, public.

Does anybody have an email list for the relevant people?

not positive, but i thought that recording without consent or warrant is illegal in HI

OldFaithful

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 07:55:14 PM »
Its illegal to do that almost everywhere if I'm not mistaken.  You would need consent from one of the people in the call.  Kind of like putting recording/tracking software on someone's phone or computer.  That's a federal crime if no consent is given.

Funtimes

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 08:36:20 PM »
not positive, but i thought that recording without consent or warrant is illegal in HI

Hawaii is one party consent.  If you are recording your call, I'm pretty sure that you have consented =p.  It would be illegal to say, record someone elses call where you are not a party.  You also cannot install things to make the recording.   There are also considerations for expectations of privacy etc., but that's kind of hard to say when you are a government employee - as the public has every right to know everything you are doing with their tax dollars.

Laser_Jock_Mauna_Kea

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:22 PM »
This is a one party consent state.

And what we have here is a public servant openly stating their intention to disobey the law and lie about the existence of documents already acquired via FOIA.

 I would simply like an application form and an honest answer to my questions.

My point is, for legal purposes, an email transcript is superior to voice communications hypothetically recorded and encrypted.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 02:45:43 PM by Laser_Jock_Mauna_Kea »

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 07:50:56 AM »
I called Hilo PD over a month ago asking for the email address of the Chief (not on the website) so I could ask some questions and get written email answers regarding the current CCW licensing policy in light of Baker and Peruta (at that point it was only Peruta). Four days later I received a call back message stating that the email addresses were there on the website. I looked again, but could find nothing for the chief or any other personnel, only a general "feedback" email address: copsysop@co.hawaii.hi.us. Since the law (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/hrs0134/HRS_0134-0009.htm) clearly states the the chief is responsible for all such decisions re CCW licenses, there would really be no point in me getting an email back from anyone other than the chief wherein he states his legal position regarding issuance in light of Baker and Peruta. I'm going in today to pick up a "permit to acquire" ( :wtf: Please Master, may I exercise my natural, civil, individual, fundamental, unalienable Constitutionally-guaranteed right?) and plan on asking the clerk if she can tell me the chief's email address. Not that any of it would make any difference, I'm just curious to see what kind of canned response they have, if any, to their continued adherence to a clearly unconstitutional law.

UPDATE: I asked the clerk when I was in there today and she said she did not know, and didn't know why it wouldn't be on the website. I plan on sending an email to the general "contact" email address and asking for his email address. If I get a response I will post it.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 07:38:06 PM by punaperson »

carcass

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 02:23:52 PM »
New guy here looking to move to Hawaii..

The chief is responsible but he doesn't have to be the one personally getting back to you in it. He's just responsible for the content and gives him plausible deniability if something negative happens. Where I am, we have a separate gun section that handles all the questions and such.

The sheriff may simply stonewall until a lawsuit is filed against him for denying someone's permit request. That person must have proof that he was denied so he will have to send a letter to the chief. I'd send it certified mail so you have proof it got there.

Kali screwed the pooch when they outlawed open carry and then a de facto ban by refusing to grant CCW permits. It basically gave no option for someone to exercise their rights to bear arms.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 02:33:24 PM by carcass »

Tom_G

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 03:54:33 PM »
not positive, but i thought that recording without consent or warrant is illegal in HI

It's illegal if neither party is aware they are being recorded.  If you are ne of the parties, and you are aware that the conversation is being recorded, well...
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

salty0317

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 06:19:09 PM »
Still trying to find an electronic method of contacting Police Chief Harry S. Kubojiri?
You can contact him on his Linked In account. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/harry-kubojiri/40/6b7/99 and that will pop up in his e-mail.   :thumbsup:








« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 06:36:14 PM by salty0317 »

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 07:35:42 PM »
Still trying to find an electronic method of contacting Police Chief Harry S. Kubojiri?
You can contact him on his Linked In account. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/harry-kubojiri/40/6b7/99 and that will pop up in his e-mail.   :thumbsup:
I don't see it on the page you link to. I'm not signing up for linkedin or facebook. What is his email address? Thanks.

Tom

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 08:09:18 PM »

Lastly, I want people to know that we can still use donations.  If you like the work we are doing, please help us out.  Send a few bucks our way.  We had to bear all the costs of that appeal, which was probably in the realm of 12k dollars.  If you want to help us out, you can do so online at www.thehdf.org/donate/ or by mail at 99-040 Kauhale St. #1798, Aiea, HI 96701.   If you have any questions, I’m available through e-mail at Chris@thehdf.org.  If you really need me, we can talk (just shoot me an e-mail first) and I will be happy to speak with you on the phone.

I just donated.  Hope others will too.
Tom
NRA Endowment Member

salty0317

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2014, 08:41:36 PM »
I don't see it on the page you link to. I'm not signing up for linkedin or facebook. What is his email address? Thanks.
Good luck and let us know what he says -
hskubojiri@co.hawaii.hi.us






« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 09:25:06 PM by salty0317 »

Laser_Jock_Mauna_Kea

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 09:24:43 PM »
I was hoping the addresses followed some standardized pattern.

Thank you very much. I want to make sure every part of conversation is logged and time stamped. Email is perfect for that.

salty0317

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 09:27:38 PM »
I was hoping the addresses followed some standardized pattern.

Thank you very much. I want to make sure every part of conversation is logged and time stamped. Email is perfect for that.
No problem - I just removed a bunch of info above - people need to be more careful who they share their personal info with - I found his home phone and cell phone number too, not cool.

Laser_Jock_Mauna_Kea

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2014, 09:31:13 PM »

Lastly, I want people to know that we can still use donations.  If you like the work we are doing, please help us out.  Send a few bucks our way.  We had to bear all the costs of that appeal, which was probably in the realm of 12k dollars.  If you want to help us out, you can do so online at www.thehdf.org/donate/ or by mail at 99-040 Kauhale St. #1798, Aiea, HI 96701.   If you have any questions, I’m available through e-mail at Chris@thehdf.org.  If you really need me, we can talk (just shoot me an e-mail first) and I will be happy to speak with you on the phone.

Blessings to everyone!  We are still fighting – 3 years strong!
Christopher Baker

Hundred Bucks heading your way. Great Work. Thanks .

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2014, 09:36:10 PM »
Good luck and let us know what he says -
hskubojiri@co.hawaii.hi.us
Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to find that and post it. I probably might have guessed that address (except maybe for the middle initial) given that the general contact email address is copsysop@co.hawaii.hi.us.

Now I have to formulate a few pointed questions with the proper polite "tone" while still asking for precise answers. I'm guessing that they may already have a canned response as I've heard that they have received quite a few inquiries.

Laser_Jock_Mauna_Kea

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2014, 09:38:17 PM »
Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to find that and post it. I probably might have guessed that address (except maybe for the middle initial) given that the general contact email address is copsysop@co.hawaii.hi.us.

Now I have to formulate a few pointed questions with the proper polite "tone" while still asking for precise answers. I'm guessing that they may already have a canned response as I've heard that they have received quite a few inquiries.

I place a high premium on civility. As Churchill said, " It costs nothing to be polite. "

salty0317

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2014, 09:56:22 PM »
Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to find that and post it. I probably might have guessed that address (except maybe for the middle initial) given that the general contact email address is copsysop@co.hawaii.hi.us.

Now I have to formulate a few pointed questions with the proper polite "tone" while still asking for precise answers. I'm guessing that they may already have a canned response as I've heard that they have received quite a few inquiries.

There are probably a few of us on here who are interested in the very same things, me being one of them.
I'm not sure if it might be helpful to perhaps let him know that your question are representative of many people on 2ahawaii and that perhaps letting him know that his reply is something that will appear on 2ahawaii. Giving him an opportunity  to address the situation overall in a more on-line public mannerism? I'm not certain how to approach it... just write what you feel is right and hopefully it wont be ignored.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 10:15:56 PM by salty0317 »