Poll

What is your stance on abortion?

Under no circumstances allowed
33.3%
Under rape/incest
20.8%
Under Medical or Genetic issues.
8.3%
Personal choice
33.3%
Forced
4.2%
Total Members Voted
24

Abortion (Read 22270 times)

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2020, 07:24:53 PM »
We force people to protect their children every single day through child protective services, the legal system, etc. 

How is a mother "being forced" to carry her child to term any different than "forcing her" to provide proper food, clothing, a safe and healthy place to live, medical care as needed, vaccinations, etc, etc,etc.

You can't tell me that the intrusion by government to ensure the wellbeing of a child before birth is any more of a hardship on a parent than ensuring the wellbeing of the child after birth.

After birth, the child may be forcibly taken away from negligent mothers.  Seems much more extreme than simply requiring that the mother give birth and then decide if the child will be put u for adoption.

I guess its because I don't believe its a child so, basically you are forcing a certain future on her both physically and mentally.

Once its an actual child then yes everything you said becomes true.  Though technically she can give up the child.  But she can't give "it" up before its born?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2020, 09:19:39 PM »
I guess its because I don't believe its a child so, basically you are forcing a certain future on her both physically and mentally.

Once its an actual child then yes everything you said becomes true.  Though technically she can give up the child.  But she can't give "it" up before its born?

It's statistically proven that a family with children provides stability, creates a happier home, and gives the adults a more focused perspective on their lives and careers.  Regardless of economic situation, the addition of an infant is a net plus for the family.  With friends, family members, churches, charities and gov't assistance, there really is no reason to argue that lack of surplus income is an impediment to having a child.  How many parents have cleaned up their lives all for the sake of their children?  It's not uncommon.  I know many who did it -- "for the kids".

You keep making children sound like burdens.  They are blessings to most families.

Well, your family being an obvious exception, of course.   O0
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

ren

Re: Abortion
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2020, 09:21:37 PM »
I am not blessed. :(

hvybarrels

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3744
  • Total likes: 826
  • board waxed - powder dry
  • Referrals: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2020, 09:28:22 PM »
I am not pro-abortion, but I know what happens when it is not available. Black market and self-performed procedures resulting in lots of dead young women.

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2020, 10:20:01 PM »
It's statistically proven that a family with children provides stability, creates a happier home, and gives the adults a more focused perspective on their lives and careers.  Regardless of economic situation, the addition of an infant is a net plus for the family.  With friends, family members, churches, charities and gov't assistance, there really is no reason to argue that lack of surplus income is an impediment to having a child.  How many parents have cleaned up their lives all for the sake of their children?  It's not uncommon.  I know many who did it -- "for the kids".

You keep making children sound like burdens.  They are blessings to most families.

Well, your family being an obvious exception, of course.   O0

I believe you are partially correct.  It can indeed go this way.   I've seen both ways.   When planned a child can be the best blessing of your life.   When unplanned its a gamble.  Not sure if I want to gamble a future humans well being.  Its up to the person to decide if they are ready and willing.  A stable happy family is key.  A one night stand oopsy is unlikely to turn into that.  If we had no abortion imagine how many of those would happen.  All the poor kids. 

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2020, 10:23:12 PM »
I am not pro-abortion, but I know what happens when it is not available. Black market and self-performed procedures resulting in lots of dead young women.

This is definitely an issue too.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2020, 10:45:25 PM »
I believe you are partially correct.  It can indeed go this way.   I've seen both ways.   When planned a child can be the best blessing of your life.   When unplanned its a gamble.  Not sure if I want to gamble a future humans well being.  Its up to the person to decide if they are ready and willing.  A stable happy family is key.  A one night stand oopsy is unlikely to turn into that.  If we had no abortion imagine how many of those would happen.  All the poor kids.

I have news, youthful forum member.  More children are unplanned than planned. 

Even those who use contraceptives can miss a dose, have a malfunction, or just be careless.  Once is all it takes sometimes.

My wife was on the pill until we got married.  Afterward, it took a year and a half to "succeed."  We weren't trying to have a child, but neither were we avoiding it.  We figured, let nature take its course, and if it happens, it'll be on its own schedule.

If people "planned" to have kids at the optimal time in their lives, they'll eventually be too old -- which happens to a lot of couples.  You don't have to have the nice house, big savings account and be debt-free to start a family.  The optimal life situation may never come.  Plus, there's the "I'm not ready" mentality.  Few parents ever are ready.  It's a learn-as-you-go opportunity..
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 10:49:43 PM »
This is definitely an issue too.

Not as much as people pretend it is. 

The nation will never totally ban abortions.  If the states place limits and exceptions on abortions, it doesn't "ban" them.  it just means you have to make that decision before you pass the first trimester or be within the exceptions.

I really don't see back alley abortions being a thing again.  As for self-induced, that still goes on today, particularly when the woman is trying to hide an affair, was raped and/or is underage.  Not the best frame of mind for making sound decisions.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

oldfart

Re: Abortion
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 11:05:15 PM »
I formulate my opinions from personal experience and.common sense.
Common sense tells me that a lot of wonderful people and things might not exist if abortions were performed with reckless abandon.

Personal experience is even better. Let me relate this true story.
About 20 years ago a woman became pregnant with a girl.
The girl had a defective chromosome structure.
The doctors said the girl might be retarded and have medical problems.
The doctors offered to abort the baby.
The parents said no.
Today, that girl is an aspiring french pastry chef in college who has already created treats enjoyed by some notable local tv celebs and a few lucky members of our local gun community.
What, Me Worry?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2020, 01:52:48 AM »
I formulate my opinions from personal experience and.common sense.
Common sense tells me that a lot of wonderful people and things might not exist if abortions were performed with reckless abandon.

Personal experience is even better. Let me relate this true story.
About 20 years ago a woman became pregnant with a girl.
The girl had a defective chromosome structure.
The doctors said the girl might be retarded and have medical problems.
The doctors offered to abort the baby.
The parents said no.
Today, that girl is an aspiring french pastry chef in college who has already created treats enjoyed by some notable local tv celebs and a few lucky members of our local gun community.

That's a very good example of why humans are not capable of playing God.

You don't have to believe in God.  You just have to be intelligent enough to know that you are not God, and you have no way to know what the real cost of aborting a new life might be.

Name all the problems you want that MIGHT be associated with allowing these lives to exist.  Then realize that those problems may actually be solved by those people.  Those, and other more critical problems, are waiting for the next Edison, Einstein, Currie or DeVinci to solve them.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Inspector

  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Total likes: 1580
  • MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!!
  • Referrals: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2020, 03:13:26 AM »
That alone demonstrates you haven't read or retained what many of us here took much time and effort to post multiple times in response to your nonstop pro-abortion opinions.

To repeat myself and others, most people accept abortion decisions WITH limits and exceptions:

-  limited to the first trimester, with the exceptions of:
    -  actual risk to the mother's life ... if carrying to term or birth threatens her life
    -  if the child was a result of rape
    -  if the child was a result of incest
(should not assume that rape or incest are always going to be acceptable as a single exception clause)

I strongly want to include "-  if the parents are Liberal/Progressive/Socialist elitists", but I'll leave it at the above.
This is almost exactly what I agree with. And I also agree that most people will or do accept these limits and exceptions. It really shows the narrow mindedness of the OP to not include what most people think in his survey. For someone who keeps harping on things can’t be black and white, he keeps spewing only black and white opinions. He needs to open his eyes to the bigger picture. And this is a state issue not a federal issue.
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2020, 03:42:34 AM »
This is almost exactly what I agree with. And I also agree that most people will or do accept these limits and exceptions. It really shows the narrow mindedness of the OP to not include what most people think in his survey. For someone who keeps harping on things can’t be black and white, he keeps spewing only black and white opinions. He needs to open his eyes to the bigger picture. And this is a state issue not a federal issue.

Yep.  People who want to enact legislation, but can't because their cause is not supported by the majority in their state, try to use the US Congress and Supreme Court to force states to do their bidding.  That, in spite of the fact the feds have a pretty limited function.  The states were given autonomy for the most part to let their residents live their lives according to their residents' wishes.  I'm glad CA doesn't pass a law which in turn requires all other states to follow it. 

That's exactly the effect of using the federal laws and courts to overstep their bounds and force every9one to march in step.  That's not how this nation was set up.  We're a collection of independent states under a federal system designed, above all else, to protect our rights and freedoms.

Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Inspector

  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Total likes: 1580
  • MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!!
  • Referrals: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2020, 04:07:54 AM »
Yep.  People who want to enact legislation, but can't because their cause is not supported by the majority in their state, try to use the US Congress and Supreme Court to force states to do their bidding.  That, in spite of the fact the feds have a pretty limited function.  The states were given autonomy for the most part to let their residents live their lives according to their residents' wishes.  I'm glad CA doesn't pass a law which in turn requires all other states to follow it. 

That's exactly the effect of using the federal laws and courts to overstep their bounds and force every9one to march in step.  That's not how this nation was set up.  We're a collection of independent states under a federal system designed, above all else, to protect our rights and freedoms.
And BTW Omnigun, what Flapp just described is NOT freedom. If you have to try and use the courts to make laws and force the states to subscribe to those laws we lose our freedom. Unfortunately, you are too narrow minded to see that.
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

Inspector

  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Total likes: 1580
  • MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!!
  • Referrals: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2020, 04:11:52 AM »
I have a question for the scientific Omnigun.

If fetuses are not alive, then how can Planned Parenthood sell LIVE body parts from aborted fetuses? Also, how can scientists use LIVE stem cells from aborted fetuses if they are not alive?

Please provide a comprehensive answer. I would like to hear how ABORTED fetuses are not alive yet they are alive enough to be used for creating and growing other life?
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2020, 06:07:17 AM »
I have news, youthful forum member.  More children are unplanned than planned. 

Even those who use contraceptives can miss a dose, have a malfunction, or just be careless.  Once is all it takes sometimes.

My wife was on the pill until we got married.  Afterward, it took a year and a half to "succeed."  We weren't trying to have a child, but neither were we avoiding it.  We figured, let nature take its course, and if it happens, it'll be on its own schedule.

If people "planned" to have kids at the optimal time in their lives, they'll eventually be too old -- which happens to a lot of couples.  You don't have to have the nice house, big savings account and be debt-free to start a family.  The optimal life situation may never come.  Plus, there's the "I'm not ready" mentality.  Few parents ever are ready.  It's a learn-as-you-go opportunity..

I'm not talking about those types of unplanned. I'm talking about people getting pregnant when they don't want to at all.  Like a fling, one night stand.   Meet a girl at a party/club/tinder. Those happen all the time. Or teen pregnancy. Or prostitution or drugs.  The chances of a happy family unit and a child having a positive family experience are slim.  Many of those cases the child suffers. 

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2020, 06:19:14 AM »
I have a question for the scientific Omnigun.

If fetuses are not alive, then how can Planned Parenthood sell LIVE body parts from aborted fetuses? Also, how can scientists use LIVE stem cells from aborted fetuses if they are not alive?

Please provide a comprehensive answer. I would like to hear how ABORTED fetuses are not alive yet they are alive enough to be used for creating and growing other life?

https://oversight.house.gov/planned-parenthood-fact-v-fiction

I believe human life needs consciousness to be alive. Simple as that.   If not it's simply a body,  much like donating organs after death. Those organs are "alive" but the person isn't.   They can be used to benefit many people. Stem cells have wonderful positive possibilities for humanity and I encourage the scientific advances made possible. Including drugs like the one that saved Trump from covid.  Advance humanity forward through science and one day we might cure cancer, aging and many negative aspects of human life. 

Inspector

  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Total likes: 1580
  • MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!!
  • Referrals: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2020, 06:24:01 AM »
https://oversight.house.gov/planned-parenthood-fact-v-fiction

I believe human life needs consciousness to be alive. Simple as that.   If not it's simply a body,  much like donating organs after death. Those organs are "alive" but the person isn't.   They can be used to benefit many people. Stem cells have wonderful positive possibilities for humanity and I encourage the scientific advances made possible. Including drugs like the one that saved Trump from covid.  Advance humanity forward through science and one day we might cure cancer, aging and many negative aspects of human life.
If something needs consciousness to be alive then I guess trees are not alive. Nor are bugs or plants of any kind? So now you are saying life is dead? And people in comas cannot be alive then either since that is the only thing someone needs to have in order to be alive?

Explain how you can have it both ways.
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2020, 06:30:13 AM »
If something needs consciousness to be alive then I guess trees are not alive. Nor are bugs or plants of any kind? So now you are saying life is dead? And people in comas cannot be alive then either since that is the only thing someone needs to have in order to be alive?

Explain how you can have it both ways.

Trees are not alive in the sense cutting them down not is murder.  Nor is killing a chicken murder.  They are alive but not human level alive. Humans are a higher level of life.  It's made hard to explain this as there's no exact term that i know of for the uniqueness of human life.  We are the only creatures on earth with human consciousness.

Inspector

  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Total likes: 1580
  • MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!!
  • Referrals: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2020, 06:41:17 AM »
Trees are not alive in the sense cutting them down not is murder.  Nor is killing a chicken murder.  They are alive but not human level alive. Humans are a higher level of life.  It's made hard to explain this as there's no exact term that i know of for the uniqueness of human life.  We are the only creatures on earth with human consciousness.
You are ignoring the coma question. Answer it.
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2020, 06:43:23 AM »
You are ignoring the coma question. Answer it.

People in comas who are brain dead are alive physically but not human level alive.  They are like unborn fetuses.

Same reason doctors are not charged with murder when they take someone off  life support.