PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment (Read 1574 times)

changemyoil66

PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« on: November 15, 2024, 07:51:30 AM »


Kevin Ogrady is a lawyer who works with HIFICO and Alan Beck to fight for your 2a right.  He is also a DUI attorney.

Chris Marvin "The Veteran" is part of the anti 2a org.  For a stand your ground bill a few years ago, he testifed against it and used Kinosha, WA and Kyle Rittenhouse as that might happen here. He was unaware that open carry of a rifle  is illegal.

Take aways:

The vet states he is a CCW holder. If he is a HI CCW holder, then his testimony to support the sensitive places makes no sense as he can only CCW on the sidewalk.

Alm used an example of a CCW holder stopping a person shooting multiple people at Fort Street Mall.  I guess he doesn't know that Fort Street Mall is a park and thus subject to HI's sensitive places law and CCW is banned there.

Overall, Alm seemed fair and not anti 2A, which as the states prosecutor, he should be.

The Waianae self defense shooting where people where killed and a car with possible flamable liquid drove into the area of people was used.

Facts for stand your ground laws that 25 states have and The Vet stated even though its half the states, its less than half the population who would use it. He is wrong as 52% of the population all under the 25 states stand your ground laws. Are we surprised his stats are wrong?

They brought up ghost guns/homemade/no serial number etc...

Alm stated for the Waianae self defense that the good guy was arrested for about 12 hours before released.  He isn't too certain on that, but pretty sure.

pacwire

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2024, 01:51:59 PM »
I've always liked Steve Alm.  Last night my impression is that he seems "fair"

the "VET" is what he is... Anti 2 A. 

Of course I liked Kevin  O Grady

and the incoming West side Senator- I liked her too....

Aloha!

tim808

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2024, 07:36:23 PM »
Thanks for the run down on the  video!

I got my firearms after Katrina hit Florida…..

But with Hawaii’s laws, I can’t do anything with my firearms if looters want stuff from us.

I sort of feel like my firearms are basically for recreation use.

I’m better off using an airsoft or paintball gun or pepper gel.

On a side note:
I sort of have mixed feelings about them bringing up Rittenhouse as an example.  Things are done for the LCD.  Those dummies were stupid to mess with a kid that had an AR. 

That kid may have had good intentions but was sort of young/naive to go to a protest with a rifle.

To bring a rifle with you, I’m thinking you feel/think that it might be a pretty nutso situation…or maybe you don’t think it is that crazy….but want to relish open carrying a rifle.   Either way, he didn’t think thru the situation all the way….the outcome if he had to shoot/injure/kill. 

Most of us on this forum are older and more mindful of risk and would not risk negative outcomes affecting what we have built up and impacting our lives and our families

I’m thinking that that kid must consider that someone might take revenge

Anywho, it sucks that situations like that affect the rest of us.

So I guess for me, I would have a firearm to protect myself …..and diaperse some of the  pepper spray to encourage them to find lower hanging fruit somewhere else

It sucks that they can mosey along till they can find a victim.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2024, 07:51:55 PM by tim808 »

Westside_Redneck

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2025, 12:06:28 PM »
Thanks for the run down on the  video!

I got my firearms after Katrina hit Florida…..

But with Hawaii’s laws, I can’t do anything with my firearms if looters want stuff from us.

I sort of feel like my firearms are basically for recreation use.

I’m better off using an airsoft or paintball gun or pepper gel.

Anywho, it sucks that situations like that affect the rest of us.

So I guess for me, I would have a firearm to protect myself …..and diaperse some of the  pepper spray to encourage them to find lower hanging fruit somewhere else

It sucks that they can mosey along till they can find a victim.

So you are concluding that we can only use a paintball gun or pepper gel to deter looters when it comes to property crime? Perhaps we can use those Less-lethal launchers like byrnas or similar CO2 or PCP powered carbines to deter looters? If said criminals are not threatening to use deadly force on ourselves or our persons, at the time they are actively committing the property crime in question; we can justify using a less lethal tool as a means of deterrence?

But should things escalate and they do decide to come after us or our persons directly with the threat of deadly force or serious bodily harm; we can use our firearms, knives, machete etc to defend ourselves or our persons and be justified under Hawaii's law?

changemyoil66

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2025, 12:15:11 PM »
So you are concluding that we can only use a paintball gun or pepper gel to deter looters when it comes to property crime? Perhaps we can use those Less-lethal launchers like byrnas or similar CO2 or PCP powered carbines to deter looters? If said criminals are not threatening to use deadly force on ourselves or our persons, at the time they are actively committing the property crime in question; we can justify using a less lethal tool as a means of deterrence?

But should things escalate and they do decide to come after us or our persons directly with the threat of deadly force or serious bodily harm; we can use our firearms, knives, machete etc to defend ourselves or our persons and be justified under Hawaii's law?

Be careful if any less lethal type projectile leaves your property. Esp if it crosses the road.  My neighbor used a byrna with a solid projectile and hit the guy 3 times. It didn't do anything. IDK what type of projectile he used, except that it wasn't the pepper powder ones. The guy ended up kicking his ass.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2025, 01:14:05 PM »
So you are concluding that we can only use a paintball gun or pepper gel to deter looters when it comes to property crime? Perhaps we can use those Less-lethal launchers like byrnas or similar CO2 or PCP powered carbines to deter looters? If said criminals are not threatening to use deadly force on ourselves or our persons, at the time they are actively committing the property crime in question; we can justify using a less lethal tool as a means of deterrence?

But should things escalate and they do decide to come after us or our persons directly with the threat of deadly force or serious bodily harm; we can use our firearms, knives, machete etc to defend ourselves or our persons and be justified under Hawaii's law?
Be careful when applying logic where our state's laws and ordinances are concerned.

Let's say someone is looting your business with no intention to cause physical harm, but to merely relieve you of your inventory.

By using force, be it lethal, less than lethal, or without any type of weapon, a lawyer could argue that YOU escalated the situation which might make you the aggressor -- especially if the person is fleeing the store with bags and boxes of your property.  if you had any other option to remain safe, like just being calm and letting the looter leave or finding a safe place to wait them out, then use of force when force was not a threat can be seen as being the aggressor.

In our leaders' minds, property crimes are not worth enforcing unless a Cop is right there to witness it.  Therefore, no civilian should take it upon themselves to stop a property crime.  It just makes matters worse. 

Liberals have the mindset, "Well don't you have insurance? So, you're really aren't losing money on looting."  insurance will foot the bill, so don't make it worse by trying to protect your stuff.

It's easier to comply and not intervene if you're an employee -- i.e. the merchandise isn't yours.  Sure, the store may go out of business putting you out of work, but the looter isn't threatening you with imminent harm.

In short, be careful when looking into HI laws.  Put yourself in the criminal's shoes and see what kinds of defenses -- logical or ridiculous -- they could use against you.  Relying on the law to protect you as you protect yourself ignores a famous comment by a former HPD Chief of Police:  Is it worth putting yourself through our legal system to defend yourself or your property?  (paraphrased)
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2025, 01:43:13 PM »

Liberals have the mindset, "Well don't you have insurance? So, you're really aren't losing money on looting."  insurance will foot the bill, so don't make it worse by trying to protect your stuff.



I've people bring things like this up on SSH FB page.  What they forget about is the deducitble. WHy should I be out $500 or more just because of a criminal?  Then add in what if they get non-renewed due to losses and now have to buy a more expensive policy.  Then, if there's an insurance agent involved and they cannot find a replacement policy, they now lose business.  Or worst, get blamed if there is no coverage and now their professional liability has to respond.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2025, 02:01:31 PM »
I've people bring things like this up on SSH FB page.  What they forget about is the deducitble. WHy should I be out $500 or more just because of a criminal?  Then add in what if they get non-renewed due to losses and now have to buy a more expensive policy.  Then, if there's an insurance agent involved and they cannot find a replacement policy, they now lose business.  Or worst, get blamed if there is no coverage and now their professional liability has to respond.

Yes, the people who want to tell everyone else how to live rarely understand the side effects of their advice -- usually because they've never had to experience the situation they are talking about -- it's just academic to them until they have to actually file a claim, produce receipts, pay deductibles, wait on an appraiser, wait for a settlement check, then have to pay higher premiums or find another insurer at higher premiums because the old insurer canceled you for costing them money.

In the meantime, you have no inventory to replace the stolen stuff, so you're missing out on sales which means your cashflow might not cover payroll and operating costs.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Westside_Redneck

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2025, 11:19:10 AM »
Be careful when applying logic where our state's laws and ordinances are concerned.

Let's say someone is looting your business with no intention to cause physical harm, but to merely relieve you of your inventory.

By using force, be it lethal, less than lethal, or without any type of weapon, a lawyer could argue that YOU escalated the situation which might make you the aggressor -- especially if the person is fleeing the store with bags and boxes of your property.  if you had any other option to remain safe, like just being calm and letting the looter leave or finding a safe place to wait them out, then use of force when force was not a threat can be seen as being the aggressor.

In our leaders' minds, property crimes are not worth enforcing unless a Cop is right there to witness it.  Therefore, no civilian should take it upon themselves to stop a property crime.  It just makes matters worse. 

Liberals have the mindset, "Well don't you have insurance? So, you're really aren't losing money on looting."  insurance will foot the bill, so don't make it worse by trying to protect your stuff.

It's easier to comply and not intervene if you're an employee -- i.e. the merchandise isn't yours.  Sure, the store may go out of business putting you out of work, but the looter isn't threatening you with imminent harm.

In short, be careful when looking into HI laws.  Put yourself in the criminal's shoes and see what kinds of defenses -- logical or ridiculous -- they could use against you.  Relying on the law to protect you as you protect yourself ignores a famous comment by a former HPD Chief of Police:  Is it worth putting yourself through our legal system to defend yourself or your property?  (paraphrased)

You are describing property crime as it applies to being a business owner. So basically, Hawaii law does not want you to intervene in any possible way unless the thief threatens to use a weapon against you or your employees as they are committing said crime.



I am talking about property crime as it applies to your place of residence!

Like, say you are a renter, and somebody early in the morning decides to raid your open-air carport and steal something out of it or your car that happened to be left unlocked that night.

What can you legally do outside of running outside and yelling at them? Can you legally chase them down the street (unarmed) if they are caught and are running away with a handful of stolen property from your carport?

As a local resident, I come seeking real answers.

Westside_Redneck

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2025, 11:45:22 AM »
Be careful if any less lethal type projectile leaves your property. Esp if it crosses the road.  My neighbor used a byrna with a solid projectile and hit the guy 3 times. It didn't do anything. IDK what type of projectile he used, except that it wasn't the pepper powder ones. The guy ended up kicking his ass.

I used byrna as an example that folks in the chat would recognize. Anyone who's looked into less lethal launchers should know that the Byrna is considered the weakest launcher for kinetic (non pepper powderball) defense. Those launchers are putting out less than 15 or 9 joules (depending on which model he bought) worth of energy anyway.

Perhaps with the Grimberg Galve at 30 joules, or the new Pistel x68 from MCS firing at a whopping 40 joules out of the box, you are talking better kinetic power for at-home use than what your neighbor used. I'm sorry he had to find out the hard way that byrnas suck for kinetic defense, they were made for pepperball getaways anyway.


 

zippz

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2025, 11:51:48 AM »
For the protection laws, read all of the following thoroughly and be an expert at it:  https://law.justia.com/codes/hawaii/title-37/chapter-703/
Use of pepper spray ordinances for Honolulu:  https://www.honolulu.gov/rep/site/csd/csd_docs/Pepper_Spray_packet.pdf

For protection of property and looters for things outside of your home, usually cameras, lights, and just your presence is enough to deter theives where they'll go somewhere else.  If you catch them trying to steal something, you can give them a warning and use pepper spray if needed.  Pepper spray is very effective, cheap, and prevents criminal and civil liability.

Having a firearm as a backup to pepper spray incase the perp turns violent towards you or your family.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2025, 12:00:53 PM by zippz »

zippz

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2025, 12:24:44 PM »
I used byrna as an example that folks in the chat would recognize. Anyone who's looked into less lethal launchers should know that the Byrna is considered the weakest launcher for kinetic (non pepper powderball) defense. Those launchers are putting out less than 15 or 9 joules (depending on which model he bought) worth of energy anyway.

Perhaps with the Grimberg Galve at 30 joules, or the new Pistel x68 from MCS firing at a whopping 40 joules out of the box, you are talking better kinetic power for at-home use than what your neighbor used. I'm sorry he had to find out the hard way that byrnas suck for kinetic defense, they were made for pepperball getaways anyway.

I don't recommend byrna or galves and other like stuff except for people that don't want to own a gun but still want protection against violent crime.  On a scale of "less lethal" devices being lethal, these are on the higher end.  Pepper spray would be at the bottom of the list.  You can legally use pepper spray against the widest range of things from property damage to deadly force.  Stuff like the Gimberg Galve and Pistel x68 are closer to firearm replacements to protect against serious bodily injury and death.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2025, 01:24:13 PM »
You are describing property crime as it applies to being a business owner. So basically, Hawaii law does not want you to intervene in any possible way unless the thief threatens to use a weapon against you or your employees as they are committing said crime.



I am talking about property crime as it applies to your place of residence!

Like, say you are a renter, and somebody early in the morning decides to raid your open-air carport and steal something out of it or your car that happened to be left unlocked that night.

What can you legally do outside of running outside and yelling at them? Can you legally chase them down the street (unarmed) if they are caught and are running away with a handful of stolen property from your carport?

As a local resident, I come seeking real answers.
2024 Hawaii Revised Statutes
Title 37. Hawaii Penal Code
703. General Principles of Justification
703-306 Use of force for the protection of property. §703-306 Commentary:

https://law.justia.com/codes/hawaii/title-37/chapter-703/section-703-306/

You can use a proportional level of force to protect property according to the law.

However, you're going to be second-guessed by people who believe a person's life and physical safety are worth more than any property they could steal from you.

If someone steals $40 worth of shoes and slippers by your entrance, does that warrant going after the thief with a baseball bat?  Does it warrant 3 large young men rushing out and kicking the thieve's ass?

Most times, you're going to be told to call the police and file a report.  For such a small value, they are going to tell you they can't do much about it.

Nowadays, the safest (for you) and best form of theft recovery/apprehension is installing lots of video cameras and also using your phone if you witness something.  Immediately call the Cops.  If you are able, maybe follow them at a distance until the Cops locate you.

There's always a risk when trying to stop someone else from wrongdoing.  Are they playing with a full deck?  Are they high?  Are they armed?  Are they not alone?  A vagrant with a box cutter can do some damage before you know what's happening as you retrieve your slippers or tools.

Legally, the law says as long as the other party has no claim to the property (i.e. doesn't say it was theirs to start with), you can demand the property back and even use a reasonable amount of force.  What's reasonable?  Hopefully your jury agrees with your definition.  if, on the other hand, the thief claims that is their property, law enforcement is probably going to tell you it's a civil matter.  Now you have to file a lawsuit to get the property returned, assuming you can prove the property is yours -- again .... cameras are great.  The property may not be worth it if you wind up having to go this route.

Conflict resolution seems to side with whichever way causes the least disruption despite who's in the right.  I wonder how many lawyers make money off all the "take it to court" laws on the books?
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

ren

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2025, 02:08:22 PM »
surprised no one mentioned getting a "big dog"
Deeds Not Words

QUIETShooter

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2025, 02:19:11 PM »
Let them have it.


Notice the sentence could have 2 meanings........ :wave:
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Westside_Redneck

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2025, 04:28:36 PM »
Legally, the law says as long as the other party has no claim to the property (i.e. doesn't say it was theirs to start with), you can demand the property back and even use a reasonable amount of force.  What's reasonable?  Hopefully your jury agrees with your definition.  if, on the other hand, the thief claims that is their property, law enforcement is probably going to tell you it's a civil matter.  Now you have to file a lawsuit to get the property returned, assuming you can prove the property is yours -- again .... cameras are great.  The property may not be worth it if you wind up having to go this route.

Conflict resolution seems to side with whichever way causes the least disruption despite who's in the right.  I wonder how many lawyers make money off all the "take it to court" laws on the books?

Makes one wonder, how many of these degenerate vagrants go with the route of claiming "the property was theirs" knowing that the cops won't do anything to them if they make a false claim. I recall in my county, a woman reported to the police about vagrants causing vandalism at a cemetery, but the cops told her unless they had "video" they can't do anything about it. It's like our policemen in this state are trained to not be policemen and instead give tickets to soft targets like h@0/3 tourists driving rental cars!

I don't recommend byrna or galves and other like stuff except for people that don't want to own a gun but still want protection against violent crime.  On a scale of "less lethal" devices being lethal, these are on the higher end.  Pepper spray would be at the bottom of the list.  You can legally use pepper spray against the widest range of things from property damage to deadly force.  Stuff like the Gimberg Galve and Pistel x68 are closer to firearm replacements to protect against serious bodily injury and death.


Now, assuming you are going to use these higher-end launchers for a response to a deadly threat that occurs at your home, and the usage was successful that it stopped the threat without "killing" said intruder, would the laws concerning using firearms to defend yourself or your loved ones from death or serious bodily injury apply here? If that is the case, then we can have these launchers that are rated for high power right out of the box without modification; with that in mind, the lib prosecutors would have significantly less wiggle room to make a case against your choice of "home defense weapon.". All this without the headaches that come from getting a gun permit and getting your weapon logged into the police's system; with, of course, a big knife, spear gun, or another more lethal weapon as a backup.

I carry pepper gel spray with me everywhere (for indoors or outdoors), I just wish those commies at Hawaiian and Southwest did not prohibit me from traveling with them via checked luggage when I go to the mainland or Oahu.


changemyoil66

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2025, 03:32:05 PM »
You are describing property crime as it applies to being a business owner. So basically, Hawaii law does not want you to intervene in any possible way unless the thief threatens to use a weapon against you or your employees as they are committing said crime.



I am talking about property crime as it applies to your place of residence!

Like, say you are a renter, and somebody early in the morning decides to raid your open-air carport and steal something out of it or your car that happened to be left unlocked that night.

What can you legally do outside of running outside and yelling at them? Can you legally chase them down the street (unarmed) if they are caught and are running away with a handful of stolen property from your carport?

As a local resident, I come seeking real answers.
You can use reasonable force to get ur stuff back or stop the theft. But no deadly force.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

zippz

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2025, 06:52:08 PM »
Now, assuming you are going to use these higher-end launchers for a response to a deadly threat that occurs at your home, and the usage was successful that it stopped the threat without "killing" said intruder, would the laws concerning using firearms to defend yourself or your loved ones from death or serious bodily injury apply here? If that is the case, then we can have these launchers that are rated for high power right out of the box without modification; with that in mind, the lib prosecutors would have significantly less wiggle room to make a case against your choice of "home defense weapon.". All this without the headaches that come from getting a gun permit and getting your weapon logged into the police's system; with, of course, a big knife, spear gun, or another more lethal weapon as a backup.

I carry pepper gel spray with me everywhere (for indoors or outdoors), I just wish those commies at Hawaiian and Southwest did not prohibit me from traveling with them via checked luggage when I go to the mainland or Oahu.

There's no self-protection law specifically on firearms.  It applies to all types of deadly force...knives, baseball bats, cars, etc.

You could carry pepper spray in your check in luggage and I've done it many times with no ill effects.  The most the airlines would do is tell you to get rid of it and maybe delay your trip.

eyeeatingfish

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2025, 11:03:07 AM »
Makes one wonder, how many of these degenerate vagrants go with the route of claiming "the property was theirs" knowing that the cops won't do anything to them if they make a false claim.

As best I understand it, the part about someone claiming the property as theirs is when legal ownership is being asserted. So if for example if I have some of claim of title to your property.  If a tow truck driver is repossessing your car you cannot harm him because he is acting upon the bank which has an interest in your car. If a burglar breaks into your house he doesn't just get to say your TV is actually his and then gets released with no charges.


Flapp_Jackson

Re: PBS Hawaii Self Defense Law Segment
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2025, 11:46:23 AM »
As best I understand it, the part about someone claiming the property as theirs is when legal ownership is being asserted. So if for example if I have some of claim of title to your property.  If a tow truck driver is repossessing your car you cannot harm him because he is acting upon the bank which has an interest in your car. If a burglar breaks into your house he doesn't just get to say your TV is actually his and then gets released with no charges.

If you call the Cops because someone at a bus stop grabbed your phone and tried to run with it, and nobody who witnessed it is willing to stick around to give a statement, the thief can claim the phone is theirs.

The Cop isn't going to try and determine whose phone it is at the scene.  He's going to take down both party's info and tell you to file a lawsuit to get it back.  It's a case of your word against the thief's.

Cops are not considered peace officers.  They are law enforcement.  Unless they saw the crime happen, they just write a report and leave the resolution up to the courts.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall