Cops on rampage - killing citizens (Read 29452 times)

macsak

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2019, 12:15:25 PM »
There were 3 people in the truck. Why not wait to see what the 2 in the hospital have to say before letting your imagination run amok?

 :wacko:

#thevictimmustbebelieved

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2019, 12:18:40 PM »
There were 3 people in the truck. Why not wait to see what the 2 in the hospital have to say before letting your imagination run amok?

 :wacko:

How does asking questions for clarification equal to imagination running amok?

Your comments are condescending to one who is only looking for the truth, given the unusual rise of police shootings and fatalities that are happening as of February 2019.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2019, 01:04:17 PM »
How does asking questions for clarification equal to imagination running amok?

Your comments are condescending to one who is only looking for the truth, given the unusual rise of police shootings and fatalities that are happening as of February 2019.

You're making insinuations and conclusions about SOP and "executions".

Please. Save me the "condescending" accusations.  You have a history of posting defamatory comments about police. Don't make this about me.

If you were looking for the truth, you'd be waiting for information to come out before jumping to conclusions.

"but one officer deliberately put himself in harms way within the police vehicle barricade.  HPD really needs to rethink its SOP in these situations."

"Police must be always put on their toes when they choose to execute somebody, instead of bringing a suspect to due process of the law, no matter what the risks may be."

Those are not "questions."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 02:11:40 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2019, 01:31:48 PM »
  HPD really needs to rethink its SOP in these situations.


How about don't try and injury cops.  Listen and follow commands.  Problem solved.

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2019, 04:04:58 PM »
You're making insinuations and conclusions about SOP and "executions".

Please. Save me the "condescending" accusations.  You have a history of posting defamatory comments about police. Don't make this about me.

If you were looking for the truth, you'd be waiting for information to come out before jumping to conclusions.

"but one officer deliberately put himself in harms way within the police vehicle barricade.  HPD really needs to rethink its SOP in these situations."

"Police must be always put on their toes when they choose to execute somebody, instead of bringing a suspect to due process of the law, no matter what the risks may be."

Those are not "questions."


The police report stated that one officer was in the path of the trapped vehicle.  How did that happen?  Why were police officers in a position of potential danger when their own report clearly said they established a vehicle barricade?  Moreover, were the officers in-question even in the path of the vehicle or is that just what the police said?

You may argue semantics, but an officer responsible fatality occured without due process of the law and the only thing the police has said to this point was they had to kill the perpetrator because they thought some of their officers were in deadly harms way.

Well, shooting at a driver of a vehicle where other passengers were present is not a wise course of action, especially if the vehicle was in motion.  The chances of a direct hit is far from certain, while the chances of injuring innocent passengers rises exponentially.  What kind of law enforcement officer would use their firearms if innocent bystanders are present?




Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2019, 04:24:44 PM »

The police report stated that one officer was in the path of the trapped vehicle.  How did that happen?  Why were police officers in a position of potential danger when their own report clearly said they established a vehicle barricade?  Moreover, were the officers in-question even in the path of the vehicle or is that just what the police said?

You may argue semantics, but an officer responsible fatality occured without due process of the law and the only thing the police has said to this point was they had to kill the perpetrator because they thought some of their officers were in deadly harms way.

Well, shooting at a driver of a vehicle where other passengers were present is not a wise course of action, especially if the vehicle was in motion.  The chances of a direct hit is far from certain, while the chances of injuring innocent passengers rises exponentially.  What kind of law enforcement officer would use their firearms if innocent bystanders are present?

Those are questions.  See the difference?

The answers require facts. Facts are not the same as assumptions.

If witness statements and police body cam videos support your assumptions as facts, THEN you have the information needed to question police tactics and SOP.

See how that works?

The DRIVER, not the police, put the passengers in peril. But you blame the Cops.

I'm done with you.  Feel free to continue ranting. I've said all that can be said until more information is made public.

 :shaka:
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2019, 09:03:58 PM »
Extra, extra, read all about it!  The little facts on the killing at the capitol has finally been made public!

So it appears the drunk that was killed at the capitol was not a former MMA champion, as inferred by the deputy sheriff who claims he had to shoot the perpetrator because he had the sheriff in some form of headlock.

I guess when you are confronting a drunk 5'3" 105 lbs. cripple, who was reported as barley being able to maintain his balance while standing; lethal force is definitely the only option, instead of pepper spray or baton.

Could have it been more likely that the drunk perpetrator could not hear or even was obeying the deputy sheriff's commands to vacate the premises, and as he tried to stand-up or walk away, he lost his balance and instinctively lunged or grabbed on the deputy sheriiff to regain his balance, which might have been wrongfully misinterpreted as an attack through which the deputy sheriff ended that person's life?

In any case, another incident of questionable judgement at the hands of law enforcement resulting in an avoidable fatality.

But I guess for the supporters with the shoot first and ask questions later approach to law enforcement in this forum, lets see if HPD can break the all-time record for police shootings and/or fatalities in this year.    :wtf:

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2019, 10:10:24 PM »
Extra, extra, read all about it!  The little facts on the killing at the capitol has finally been made public!

So it appears the drunk that was killed at the capitol was not a former MMA champion, as inferred by the deputy sheriff who claims he had to shoot the perpetrator because he had the sheriff in some form of headlock.

I guess when you are confronting a drunk 5'3" 105 lbs. cripple, who was reported as barley being able to maintain his balance while standing; lethal force is definitely the only option, instead of pepper spray or baton.

Could have it been more likely that the drunk perpetrator could not hear or even was obeying the deputy sheriff's commands to vacate the premises, and as he tried to stand-up or walk away, he lost his balance and instinctively lunged or grabbed on the deputy sheriiff to regain his balance, which might have been wrongfully misinterpreted as an attack through which the deputy sheriff ended that person's life?

In any case, another incident of questionable judgement at the hands of law enforcement resulting in an avoidable fatality.

But I guess for the supporters with the shoot first and ask questions later approach to law enforcement in this forum, lets see if HPD can break the all-time record for police shootings and/or fatalities in this year.    :wtf:

I read he was 5' 4" and 120 lbs.  Not sure where you got 105 lbs.  At his size, a 15 lb difference is not insignificant.

"Sherrif’s deputies are not equipped with tasers or body cams."

"Surveillance footage didn’t cover the area where encounter took place."


Speculation by his mother and mother's boyfriend is still not "fact."  They didn't witness anything. 

I'll wait for something besides emotional statements by people who weren't there.



http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/02/24/heartbreak-tears-family-man-shot-capitol-raises-questions-over-his-death/
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2019, 10:39:19 PM »
I read he was 5' 4" and 120 lbs.  Not sure where you got 105 lbs.  At his size, a 15 lb difference is not insignificant.

The accounts reported by today's Star Advertiser beg to differ.  You are right, he wasn't 105 lbs. the article reported court records showing as the victim being even lighter at 102 lbs.


"Sherrif’s deputies are not equipped with tasers or body cams."

Clearly something wrong here with their SOP.


"Surveillance footage didn’t cover the area where encounter took place."

Exactly, all we have is the deputy sheriff's account of killing clearly a relatively short and light drunk man.


Speculation by his mother and mother's boyfriend is still not "fact."  They didn't witness anything. 

I'll wait for something besides emotional statements by people who weren't there.

According to the victim's parents recounted by the article in the today's Star Advertiser, he was born with twisted feet that required surgery at the Shriners Hospital for Crippled Children and walked with a limp.  Hence, since the victim was disabled, how can one justify using lethal force against such a short and light crippled adversary.



Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2019, 11:10:31 PM »
According to the victim's parents recounted by the article in the today's Star Avertiser, he was born with twisted feet that required surgery at the Shriners Hospital for Crippled Children. 

Hence, the victim was a disabled cripple, who walked with a limp.

If you read the article I linked, it also included the polio at birth story.

Did the report you read actually say he was "a disabled cripple" at the time of the shooting?

I didn't see anything saying he's crippled, or that the condition wasn't corrected.  Maybe the Shriner's Hospital corrected the majority of the polio effects.  He may have had many surgeries and physical therapy in his 28 years.

Walking with a limp is not synonymous with "crippled."  Just saying.

I'm not a Star-Pravdatizer subscriber, so I didn't read their report.  Maybe she provided more recent information on his condition.  Anything to add from what you read?
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2019, 11:17:48 PM »
So a person who is "crippled" is not capable of causing injury to someone else?

Whats the stats on the sheriff? Was he 6"3 300lbs?

Like i said, how about obey commmands and dont use force on any LE.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2019, 11:28:22 PM »
So a person who is "crippled" is not capable of causing injury to someone else?

Whats the stats on the sheriff? Was he 6"3 300lbs?

Like i said, how about obey commmands and dont use force on any LE.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

This is going to turn into another Monday morning quarterback situation like the Deedy fiasco. Family and friends now want to destroy the Deputy Sheriff, yet there's even less independent evidence as to what actually happened.

There are a few arrests involving a defendant with the name Delmar C. Espejo in Honolulu court records, including criminal property damage last Nov 2018.

It would be nice to see if the Deputy has any history of excessive force complaints, too.

"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2019, 11:29:45 PM »
I was at a bar once. Had this cripple talking shit to everyone the whole night. He had a cane too. Finally someone got tired of it and stepped up. The cripple pushed the guy with 1 hand. Guy pushed back and cripple went flying. He then played the cripple card and was crying.

Everyone there knew he deserved it and no one helped him up.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2019, 11:35:20 PM »
So a person who is "crippled" is not capable of causing injury to someone else?

Whats the stats on the sheriff? Was he 6"3 300lbs?

Like i said, how about obey commmands and dont use force on any LE.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

That's the issue though, there isn't conclusive evidence to prove that the victim was in compliance or non-compliance.  All we do know is that someone was killed and according to the link provided by Flapp, the deputy sheriff did not have a taser or body cam, BUT was fitted with pepper spray and a baton.  Especially dealing with someone that clearly had no advanced hand-to-hand fighting skills and had irreversible physical impediments, why didn't the deputy sheriff utilize the less lethal tools at his disposal?

If a civilian was faced in a similar situation and choose to use a firearm against a perpetrator with the same physical disabilities, but had pepper spray or baton also in the arsenal, you bet the local prosecutor would try to throw that civilian in jail for unnecessary use of force and/or murder./b]

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2019, 11:42:54 PM »
I was at a bar once. Had this cripple talking shit to everyone the whole night. He had a cane too. Finally someone got tired of it and stepped up. The cripple pushed the guy with 1 hand. Guy pushed back and cripple went flying. He then played the cripple card and was crying.

Everyone there knew he deserved it and no one helped him up.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yep. Someone can use a cane as a weapon, too.

I'm not stating an opinion either way. I do know the Deputy said he ordered Espejo to leave the area.  I can't imagine why he'd lie about that detail.  If true, the "victim" could have diffused the situation by leaving.  When you're drunk & drinking in public, it's not wise to ignore the orders of any law enforcement officer.

Every situation like this involves at least 2 people. It just takes one making the choice to do something different to change the outcome.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2019, 11:48:54 PM »
That's the issue though, there isn't conclusive evidence to prove that the victim was in compliance or non-compliance.  All we do know is that someone was killed and according to the link provided by Flapp, the deputy sheriff did not have a taser or body cam, BUT was fitted with pepper spray and a baton.  Especially dealing with someone that clearly had no advanced hand-to-hand fighting skills and had irreversible physical impediments, why didn't the deputy sheriff utilize the less lethal tools at his disposal?

If a civilian was faced in a similar situation and choose to use a firearm against a perpetrator with the same physical disabilities, but had pepper spray or baton also in the arsenal, you bet the local prosecutor would try to throw that civilian in jail for unnecessary use of force and/or murder./b]

Are you seriously saying only people with advanced hand-to-hand training represent a threat to others if they decide to attack? 

I ASSUME he was carrying a bottle, since it was reported he was drinking alcohol in public. Was he also carrying a blade?  He potentially had a weapon in his hand and weapons of opportunity. Disable the Deputy with a hit over the head with any object (bottle), then take his firearm.  It's been done.

Your imagination is still running amok.   :popcorn:
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2019, 11:50:52 PM »


If a civilian was faced in a similar situation and choose to use a firearm against a perpetrator with the same physical disabilities, but had pepper spray or baton also in the arsenal, you bet the local prosecutor would try to throw that civilian in jail for unnecessary use of force and/or murder.

It's not even been a week yet, and here you are saying the Deputy is getting special treatment. He's on leave pending the results of the investigation.

Cart  <behind>  Horse
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2019, 11:51:11 PM »
I'm not stating an opinion either way. I do know the Deputy said he ordered Espejo to leave the area.  I can't imagine why he'd lie about that detail.

Who knows?  Maybe he woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?  Maybe he was too excessive in his commands or was actually begging for a confrontation?


If true, the "victim" could have diffused the situation by leaving.  When you're drunk & drinking in public, it's not wise to ignore the orders of any law enforcement officer.

If you are drunk, you are not in your right mind and not in-control of your faculties; hence, it should be no surprise to the deputy sheriff to receive non-compliance.  Moreover, this is even more reason for the deputy sheriff to have prepared for a potential physical altercation, but ready to utilize non-lethal means to address that contingency if it arose.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2019, 11:54:40 PM »
Try posting something that doesn't start with "maybe" for a change.   :thumbsup:

Even drunks know when they are interacting with a uniformed Deputy. if he's so drunk he's incoherent, then it's very possible he did attack the Deputy for no good reason --  "not in-control of your faculties". That's his fault for getting that drunk, not the Deputy's.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2019, 11:58:38 PM »
Are you seriously saying only people with advanced hand-to-hand training represent a threat to others if they decide to attack? 

No, but our trained deputy sheriff should be more than capable to handle a physical altercation against the average Joe or the victim in this case.


ASSUME he was carrying a bottle, since it was reported he was drinking alcohol in public. Was he also carrying a blade?

No evidence, but hard to believe such a weapon not reported yet if there was one.


He potentially had a weapon in his hand and weapons of opportunity. Disable the Deputy with a hit over the head with any object (bottle), then take his firearm.  It's been done.

Possible, but then you are talking about a victim with physical impediments and intoxicated.  His moves based on such an adversary would be clumsy and uncoordinated at best, which is much less a match for our trained deputy sheriff.