Home Defense Firearms Training (Read 11297 times)

Kuleana

Home Defense Firearms Training
« on: December 27, 2014, 07:54:48 PM »
Aloha,

Just as the title says, what do you consider to be an adequate curriculum for home defense firearms training.

Mahalo,
Kuleana

Tom_G

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 08:18:14 PM »
"Adequate" is an interesting choice of word!

I see all these articles, posted here and by friends on social media, where some unlikely hero has successfully defended themselves or their home against ne'er-do-wells.  These people are never the ones who train or prepare, they're just people who happen to have a gun in the house and some clue how to use it.  And, of course, these stories all come from states where people don't go to jail for defending themselves. 

I don't consider that approach adequate, although it seems to work pretty well.  If I were designing a curriculum, I think it would have four primary components:
1. Operation of, and ongoing practice with, the defense weapon of your choice,
2. A written-out plan of both action and aftermath,
3. Familiarity with the laws of the land,
4. Some form of affirmation program.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Kuleana

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 09:09:18 PM »
Thanks Tom,

I really like your framework and agree with your points.  How would one achieve the practical aspect of shooting in the curriculum you described?

Kuleana

macsak

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 09:15:51 PM »
Thanks Tom,

I really like your framework and agree with your points.  How would one achieve the practical aspect of shooting in the curriculum you described?

Kuleana

research self-defense shootings on the internet and find articles like this:
http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/10-things-you-should-never-do-after-self-defense-shooting
"My gun is laying over there, and that is the gun that I used to shoot my attacker in self defense because I feared for my life. I do not want to say anything else until I have had time to talk to my attorney. I want to cooperate with the investigation completely, but I'm very upset right now and I need to talk to my attorney first. I hope you understand."

Tom_G

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 09:18:32 PM »
Thanks Tom,

I really like your framework and agree with your points.  How would one achieve the practical aspect of shooting in the curriculum you described?

Kuleana

There's certainly no need to reinvent the wheel there!  I am a fan of the NRA introductory pistol classes.  They are an excellent introduction to the fundamentals of how firearms work and how to use them.  From there, seeking specific training relating to defense in the home.  NRA has such a class, but they're far from the only game in town.  Along with the classes, an ongoing regimen of practice should be developed.  Personally, I don't think it needs to be exhaustive (read my post on philosophy of self defense weapon selection), but one should practice often enough that the skills and plans aren't forgotten.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

dafrtknocker

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 09:21:30 PM »
Safety and Firearms Education has a "BASICS OF PERSONAL PROTECTION IN THE HOME", not sure if that's what your looking for.

http://www.safetyandfirearmseducation.com/Training_Classes.html

Tom_G

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 09:23:36 PM »
Safety and Firearms Education has a "BASICS OF PERSONAL PROTECTION IN THE HOME", not sure if that's what your looking for.

http://www.safetyandfirearmseducation.com/Training_Classes.html

That is the NRA class, offered by a friend (and fellow NRA Training Counselor) of mine.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

macsak

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 09:25:15 PM »
Safety and Firearms Education has a "BASICS OF PERSONAL PROTECTION IN THE HOME", not sure if that's what your looking for.

http://www.safetyandfirearmseducation.com/Training_Classes.html

i cannot comment on his home defense courses, but several us took the NRA RSO course from cliff, and it was taught well, and it was very educational/informatve
he is a true professional

mauidog

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2014, 11:38:04 PM »
From a practical shooting perspective, I would highly recommend attending a few MPPL or other pistol club/league orientation and classification day.  The variety of targets, distances, barriers, formats, and skills involved are nothing like static range practice. 

You'll be able to reload between targets in a stage, clear jams if/when you have any, and always, ALWAYS be conscious of where that muzzle is pointed.  If you happen to lose track of your muzzle direction, there will be people there to reinforce it for you.

All in all, I think this can be one of the best ways to rehearse the skills you might need in a HD situation.  The DVD and YouTube route can help your planning and visualization so you're mentally prepared, but you'll still want to know you can actually hit your target with a little bit of stress messing with you!

The coolest part:  the MPPL orientation is free!  No memberships dues or match fees required for your first time! 

 :D
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Kuleana

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2014, 08:35:37 AM »
Aloha All,

Thanks for your insights and great suggestions.  With all of your collective input, I am surprised that you all are not getting together to start a school of firearm-based home defense. I'd surely be your first student.

Mahalo,
Kuleana

zippz

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2014, 05:22:55 PM »
I would think there is a lot of preparation work to do.

1.  How quickly can you get to your firearm?
2.  What if the intruder is between you and the firearm?
3.  Can you get to your firearm at night?
4.  What about your family members?  Do they know what to do?
5.  Do you have a flashlight & cell phone readily available?
6.  How secure are your windows and doors?  Can you reinforce them?  Alarms?
7.  First aid kit on hand?
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Kuleana

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2014, 06:29:20 PM »
I would think there is a lot of preparation work to do.

1.  How quickly can you get to your firearm?
2.  What if the intruder is between you and the firearm?
3.  Can you get to your firearm at night?
4.  What about your family members?  Do they know what to do?
5.  Do you have a flashlight & cell phone readily available?
6.  How secure are your windows and doors?  Can you reinforce them?  Alarms?
7.  First aid kit on hand?

Very good points to consider.

Mahalo,
Kuleana

crazy cat

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 08:49:18 AM »
Training is all well and good, but shooting IDPA matches is even better.....

drck1000

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2014, 11:19:46 AM »
While I shoot IPSC often (or at least used to) and enjoy the competition, one has to be mindful of the context.  I enjoy that I have a course of fire to negotiate and even learn how the stress of the timer can affect me.  There is the competition and "gun game" aspect of it that could lead to bad habits, such as use of cover, dropping partial mags in preparation for the Texas star next, etc.  I do believe IPSC does help to keep one sharp, just to be mindful if training is part of your purpose for doing so.  Like someone mentioned above, IDPA is good as well, but no (or at least not many) matches offered here. 

Shooting is also only part of the equation.  A lot of what has been stressed in defensive firearm training is also mindset and preparation.  The whys and hows.  What has been effective and why.  What are commonly quoted firearm related myths and so on. 

Surf

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2014, 02:32:25 PM »
Mindset is probably the most overlooked aspect of any training and probably the biggest key to success of an armed encounter.  After that weapons proficiency is key and understanding basic fundamentals and being apply to apply them effectively under stress situations.  Having a plan and practicing that plan is also key, however one large component that is often missing from most training (due to logistics) is force on force training that incorporates reality based scenarios that are suited, designed or geared towards the specific types of scenario's based on the training course content.  Reality based, force on force type training is the #1 training method for success.  Building up a mental rolodex of files is critical in getting a person to a state of consciousness where we are going through mental reactive process with much greater speed and efficiency.  Basically you want to develop unconscious competence in your weapon handling skills and reactive skills and you want your mental process to go from A-Z very quickly. If you have done something before you immediately understand things that worked and things that didn't.  You bypass a huge mental thought or mental gap process and go almost straight to the action phase.  You are training out the "deer in the headlights" syndrome. 

If you are more interested in this you might google terms like "4 stages of competence" and "OODA loop".  It isn't as simple as reading it and making things happen on your own.  There is a definitive progression of learning utilizing multiple teaching techniques and methodologies that can achieve superior results quickly.  Quite honestly, I know of no programs of this caliber being offered anywhere in Hawaii on an open enrollment basis to the public.  There are definitely worthwhile base level courses, but anything advanced and you would have some traveling to do. 

I love competition or "competition style shooting".  As someone who would be placed as a defensive or combat type of shooter / instructor I often butt heads with the pure "defensive shooting" aficionados in because I like competitive shooting and there are many positives that come from that genre of shooting.  When taken in context and applied correctly, aspects of competition types of drills or courses of fire can do wonders for "defensive / combat shooting".  However most don't understand or apply things correctly and simply think that what they do on the weekend on the range will automatically apply to a true critical incident.  IMO there is a serious flaw in thinking that simply because I shoot IDPA that I am good to go.  I had this discussion before with the founding fathers of IDPA and there is a reason why they take issue with where IDPA has progressed over the years.  Now if one is able to correctly separate "a game" from "reality" and understand how things translate from "game day" to real life "my life is on the line", then weapons manipulation under duress on a timer is a good thing.

drck1000

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2014, 02:49:10 PM »
Mindset is probably the most overlooked aspect of any training and probably the biggest key to success of an armed encounter.  After that weapons proficiency is key and understanding basic fundamentals and being apply to apply them effectively under stress situations.  Having a plan and practicing that plan is also key, however one large component that is often missing from most training (due to logistics) is force on force training that incorporates reality based scenarios that are suited, designed or geared towards the specific types of scenario's based on the training course content.  Reality based, force on force type training is the #1 training method for success.  Building up a mental rolodex of files is critical in getting a person to a state of consciousness where we are going through mental reactive process with much greater speed and efficiency.  Basically you want to develop unconscious competence in your weapon handling skills and reactive skills and you want your mental process to go from A-Z very quickly. If you have done something before you immediately understand things that worked and things that didn't.  You bypass a huge mental thought or mental gap process and go almost straight to the action phase.  You are training out the "deer in the headlights" syndrome. 

If you are more interested in this you might google terms like "4 stages of competence" and "OODA loop".  It isn't as simple as reading it and making things happen on your own.  There is a definitive progression of learning utilizing multiple teaching techniques and methodologies that can achieve superior results quickly.  Quite honestly, I know of no programs of this caliber being offered anywhere in Hawaii on an open enrollment basis to the public.  There are definitely worthwhile base level courses, but anything advanced and you would have some traveling to do. 

I love competition or "competition style shooting".  As someone who would be placed as a defensive or combat type of shooter / instructor I often butt heads with the pure "defensive shooting" aficionados in because I like competitive shooting and there are many positives that come from that genre of shooting.  When taken in context and applied correctly, aspects of competition types of drills or courses of fire can do wonders for "defensive / combat shooting".  However most don't understand or apply things correctly and simply think that what they do on the weekend on the range will automatically apply to a true critical incident.  IMO there is a serious flaw in thinking that simply because I shoot IDPA that I am good to go.  I had this discussion before with the founding fathers of IDPA and there is a reason why they take issue with where IDPA has progressed over the years.  Now if one is able to correctly separate "a game" from "reality" and understand how things translate from "game day" to real life "my life is on the line", then weapons manipulation under duress on a timer is a good thing.
I've had similar conversations with a number of people.  I think there can be a LOT of benefit that can be gained from IPSC, IDPA to "real life" defensive shooting, but like you said, it's all about context.  Take what positives you can from the experience and build (and maintain) your skill set.  Hawaii doesn't have a lot of options for competition and less for training.  While I truly enjoy competing, my intention with getting into IPSC was to get more shooting training/practice than beyond what was offered at Koko Head bullseye range.  We used to be able to do some with SRGC, but that has since been reduced to static shooting drills.  It was really eye opening when something as simple as a reload fumbled or a malfunction on how you shot a stage.  I remember getting to the end of a stage after a "brain fart" and it was like, "I had that going differently in my mind".  Just the induced stress of a shot timer and your friends watching was enough, let alone anyone shooting at you.  At a training class I attended in Alaska, I somehow got hung-up in my AR sling during a course of fire (transition from AR to handgun, reload and continue).  For some reason, my brain couldn't figure what the hell was happening and took forever to get myself "un-screwed".  It's like my mind didn't know what was going on for a few seconds. 

I used to shoot with a group that had the idea of getting airsoft and doing force-on-force exercises on someone's private land.  That idea has since fizzled, but it did sound very interesting.  Yeah, it's between dry fire and live fire (probably not far away from dry fire), but still better than nothing.

Surf

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2014, 08:46:40 AM »
I've had similar conversations with a number of people.  I think there can be a LOT of benefit that can be gained from IPSC, IDPA to "real life" defensive shooting, but like you said, it's all about context.  Take what positives you can from the experience and build (and maintain) your skill set.  Hawaii doesn't have a lot of options for competition and less for training.  While I truly enjoy competing, my intention with getting into IPSC was to get more shooting training/practice than beyond what was offered at Koko Head bullseye range.  We used to be able to do some with SRGC, but that has since been reduced to static shooting drills.  It was really eye opening when something as simple as a reload fumbled or a malfunction on how you shot a stage.  I remember getting to the end of a stage after a "brain fart" and it was like, "I had that going differently in my mind".  Just the induced stress of a shot timer and your friends watching was enough, let alone anyone shooting at you.  At a training class I attended in Alaska, I somehow got hung-up in my AR sling during a course of fire (transition from AR to handgun, reload and continue).  For some reason, my brain couldn't figure what the hell was happening and took forever to get myself "un-screwed".  It's like my mind didn't know what was going on for a few seconds. 

I used to shoot with a group that had the idea of getting airsoft and doing force-on-force exercises on someone's private land.  That idea has since fizzled, but it did sound very interesting.  Yeah, it's between dry fire and live fire (probably not far away from dry fire), but still better than nothing.
Yes it is unfortunate that Hawaii is very lacking in its availability and venues for training.  For those like yourself who have traveled to courses outside of this state it is very obvious in what we are lacking or could wish to improve.  Again the restrictive nature of things here make it challenging and I do applaud those who attempt to provide some type of training.  On the down side of that, is that it can also be a bad thing if those providing the training (the instructors) are not honest about their own knowledge and skills and may be passing on things that are going to get someone killed instead of helping them survive.  It is important that an instructor remain within their own proverbial "lane" so to speak as I have seen some serious posturing (posers) and seen some flat out scary stuff.

As for competition, I am a supporter.  If footballs were used as effective self defense weapons, does that mean I would stop playing a game of football on weekends?  Not a chance.  I can clearly understand what is a game and recreation and what would save my life due to my cross training in both areas, game and self defense.  Similar in concept to shooting sports.  Just because I like to compete in a game with firearms, does not mean I cannot differentiate between a game and hunting bad people with guns.  The problem is the person who has grown up playing football all their life as a game and never did it to protect their own life.  Same with firearms.  If all you know is "the game" don't think those IPSC or even tactics used in IDPA are realistic.  Stress, weapon manipulations, figuring out what gear works and what does not, is a great aspect for competition.  Some people think all they need is that competition aspect and the rest will fall into place when bad things really happen.  Not a good bet when you're betting with your life.  Again as you mention context, understanding both sides and applying it properly as a training regimen, which requires a healthy dose of defensive tactics training.

Airsoft is a doable tool, many agencies who lack funds opt for airsoft.  Easy to set up, but with any force on force correct application of tactics is key and perhaps the biggest key to success are actors who play the roles properly.  Obviously SIMUNITIONS would be better, but that has it own set of challenges monetarily, but at least now, especially with ATK getting into the mix, certain individuals are now able to purchase products for use outside of just LE and Military.  Still financially challenging.  I have been talking to Southnarc from Shivworks and would love to get him out here.

oldfart

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2014, 09:58:10 AM »
Aloha,

Just as the title says, what do you consider to be an adequate curriculum for home defense firearms training.

Mahalo,
Kuleana
...
Kuleana,
I do not know what your level of expertise is, so here is my general opinion.
My definition of home defense is the bump in the night or strange knock at the door.
A good pistol is easy to secure in a quick access box. So that is the tool of choice for me.
Basic proficiency with a pistol is difficult for the average person.
So I recommend basic marksmanship training first. Ie.slow fire at 25 yds. Bullseye.
After you are proficient at that, then practice timed fire at 25 yds.
When you get proficient at timed fire at 25 yds, then join mppl.
Then you will be practicing shooting accurately and quickly under stress.
When you can do that, you are about 80% there.
The rest is tactics, preparation, and legal stuff.
So you can get 80% trained without taking any high priced training classes, and you will meet lots of good people and probably have lots of fun at the same time.



What, Me Worry?

s197

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2014, 10:25:52 AM »
Airsoft would be a good addition and its pretty fun IMO. The quality guns replicate a real firearm fairly well in terms of weight and function. The slide on the pistols will lock back on an empty magazine, AR utilizes the charging handle, etc.

Of course it's not perfect, most AR airsoft weapons don't utilize the bolt release (although a few high end models do) and of course it doesn't mimic recoil.

There's a few courses on Oahu that have indoor setups that would be fairly similar to a HD situation.

Kuleana

Re: Home Defense Firearms Training
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2014, 11:44:15 AM »
...
Kuleana,
I do not know what your level of expertise is, so here is my general opinion.
My definition of home defense is the bump in the night or strange knock at the door.
A good pistol is easy to secure in a quick access box. So that is the tool of choice for me.
Basic proficiency with a pistol is difficult for the average person.
So I recommend basic marksmanship training first. Ie.slow fire at 25 yds. Bullseye.
After you are proficient at that, then practice timed fire at 25 yds.
When you get proficient at timed fire at 25 yds, then join mppl.
Then you will be practicing shooting accurately and quickly under stress.
When you can do that, you are about 80% there.
The rest is tactics, preparation, and legal stuff.
So you can get 80% trained without taking any high priced training classes, and you will meet lots of good people and probably have lots of fun at the same time.


Thanks for the advice.      :shaka: