AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol (Read 4669 times)

6716J

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2020, 04:00:49 PM »
HPD already hates gun owners without badges.

No sense in trying to win friends there.

very true....very true
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

6716J

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2020, 04:08:58 PM »
Okay, let me be more precise.  I was using your words, and I should have substituted a more exact phrase.

You originally said:
What I took that to mean is that a bullet button makes an AR pistol in HI compliant with HI gun laws. 

Sure, you can put a Transformer Action Figure on your AR pistol -- perfectly legal.  But it in no way makes the pistol more or less compliant.  Same with a bullet button.  Our laws are written differently than California's.  They tried to be more specific, and it gave owners enough wiggle room to use bullet buttons to comply.  Hawaii laws are more ambiguous and lacking in details.  That way they can charge you, and it's up to you to prove the law should be interpreted your way versus their way.

I definitely agree that the laws were written to be purposefully ambiguous to give the cops the upper hand on arresting and keeping the law abiding afraid enough to not try to push it. I myself don't want to push it because I don't want to end up with a weekend vacation in the pokey, so I don't have one. But I want one again, like I had back in the free states. But I don't have to agree with them, especially when they have no legal teeth but enforced by goons.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

dirsh

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2020, 02:38:11 PM »
When ordering a lower to be shipped to a local FFL, do you need to give the seller or FFL any special instructions?

Do I just buy a regular AR lower, have it shipped to FFL, then tell FFL I want to register it as other?
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
╾━╤デ╦︻

nahp01

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2020, 02:57:58 PM »
When ordering a lower to be shipped to a local FFL, do you need to give the seller or FFL any special instructions?

Do I just buy a regular AR lower, have it shipped to FFL, then tell FFL I want to register it as other?

I’m going through this process right now. Once you order it, tell your FFL to register with HPD as FRAME ONLY. Mine put receiver and checked the “other” box, and he had to call and update it. Make sure you let them know what you plan on doing, when applying for the permit.

The guy helping me was nice, but he kept telling me to use my long gun permit and that I didn’t need to apply for a permit to acquire.

Just picked up my permit and lower, so trying to figure out what my next step is before registration. I’d be ok keeping it bolt action, as I plan on moving in the next year, and would rather not weld anything.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 03:10:51 PM »
When ordering a lower to be shipped to a local FFL, do you need to give the seller or FFL any special instructions?

Do I just buy a regular AR lower, have it shipped to FFL, then tell FFL I want to register it as other?

As naph01 said, it's important to make sure the paperwork states whatever it needs to state so you can build a pistol from it.

Even though it's an AR-15 receiver, don't use a long gun permit to pick it up.  Apply for a pistol permit with that receiver's serial number.  Use that permit to pick it up.

If the 4473 and pistol permit are done correctly, all that's left to do is register.  If they'll let you, register it before starting the build.  if they tell you it must be completed first, you have lots of time now before taking it in due to the reservation BS system.  That's a bonus!   :thumbsup: 

If they register it before the build and tell you to bring it back after building, tell them, "Roger that!" 

The End.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

Rico808

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2022, 05:11:14 PM »
So if I pick up a stripped lower out of state. Do I bypass the permit to acquire?

FYI haven’t purchased out of state yet. So not too sure how it works.
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

aieahound

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2022, 05:17:18 PM »
My only advice…Listen to dogman.
He will not lead you astray. (No pun intended…ah, maybe it was.)
But straight up, he knows as much about this as anyone.
IMO.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2022, 05:22:30 PM »
So if I pick up a stripped lower out of state. Do I bypass the permit to acquire?

FYI haven’t purchased out of state yet. So not too sure how it works.

You should read up on the ATF rules and the Hawaii Revised Statutes.  That way you're getting the whole story and not just answers to specific questions.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0813-firearms-top-12-qaspdf/download

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-.htm

To answer the question, if you buy a lower out-of-state, the law requires the seller (private or FFL Dealer) to ship the receiver to an FFL in your state of residence.   The FFL will then transfer the lower to you as if they are the owner, ensuring all state laws are followed -- including you presenting a valid permit to acquire.

 :shaka:
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2022, 10:16:14 PM »
So if I pick up a stripped lower out of state. Do I bypass the permit to acquire?
FYI haven’t purchased out of state yet. So not too sure how it works.
To answer the question, if you buy a lower out-of-state, the law requires the seller (private or FFL Dealer) to ship the receiver to an FFL in your state of residence.   The FFL will then transfer the lower to you as if they are the owner, ensuring all state laws are followed -- including you presenting a valid permit to acquire.
If you want to register a stripped AR lower as a pistol frame with HPD, you have to go through the same process as if you are acquiring a handgun. Purchase lower but do not take possession, apply for handgun permit to acquire, two week wait, pick up permit to acquire, acquire lower and register. The gun shop / FFL may not know the correct procedure. At one time you had to permanently attach the magazine before HPD would register.  If not done to HPD's satisfaction, they would confiscate the lower. When I checked late last year it was not necessary to attach a magazine to register.
Many moons ago, HPD would not let me or others register a stripped lower receiver as a pistol frame unless it was labeled as a pistol lower from the manufacturer. I found a letter from the ATF that stated it was acceptable to build a pistol from any lower as long as it was never previously assembled as a rifle. HPD accepted this and allowed any receiver to be registered as a pistol if purchased as a new stripped lower, never assembled as a rifle. I tried to get the ATF to write a letter stating it was acceptable to build a pistol with a stripped lower that was registered as a rifle but their letter stated almost the opposite. Do not register the lower with a rifle permit if you plan on building a pistol.

To be honest, building a legal AR pistol in Hawaii was more of a "I can do this" challenge and I thought it would great to shoot, but I have just as much or more enjoyment with a my pinned and welded muzzle brake 14.5" barreled AR rifle.

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2022, 10:25:00 PM »
The first one.

Rico808

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2022, 01:13:38 AM »
The first one.


😍 so it IS possible.

Do you mind me asking how you went about the mag? It looks one piece. Can I use any magazine? And did you have to have a 10rd cap?

Btw why does it say “not for resale”?
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2022, 06:59:18 PM »

😍 so it IS possible.

Do you mind me asking how you went about the mag? It looks one piece. Can I use any magazine? And did you have to have a 10rd cap?

Btw why does it say “not for resale”?

First I fabricated a sleeve using .090" thick aluminum to encased a 30 round G.I. magazine. With the curved mag, no way the mag can come out of the sleeve. The bottom of the sleeve is open, so the mag can be serviced. Welded the sleeved magazine to the lower (registered as pistol). Finished the build and returned to HPD where they used white out and retyped the registration. The pistol cannot be resold because I am not licensed to build guns for resale, only personal use.


Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2022, 08:44:28 PM »
First I fabricated a sleeve using .090" thick aluminum to encased a 30 round G.I. magazine. With the curved mag, no way the mag can come out of the sleeve. The bottom of the sleeve is open, so the mag can be serviced. Welded the sleeved magazine to the lower (registered as pistol). Finished the build and returned to HPD where they used white out and retyped the registration. The pistol cannot be resold because I am not licensed to build guns for resale, only personal use.

Curious:  was this particular firearm registered before, or after, the ATF 4473 was updated to include receivers as "Other", or were you still required to make sure the LGS categorized it as a Pistol/Handgun specifically?

I have a different theory on the "resale" issue.

According to federal law, you can resell a gun you build at home as long as you intended the firearm to be for personal use at the time you did the build.  No manufacturing license is required.

Unless you can find something in the HI statutes that further constrains federal laws and ATF guidance, my guess is HPD typed "(NOT FOR RESALE)" as an indication of your intent -- as in, you were building it for personal use.  That doesn't mean you can't resell it -- just HPD needed to document your intentions at the time you registered.

I think this may be another HPD policy "creep" where "Not Intended for Resale" is being misconstrued as "Resale is Prohibited."

That's my interpretation of it, since there are many homemade AR-15 "Franken-guns" being legally sold in this state every year.

I built an AR15 rifle from parts, transferred it to my daughter, and the new registration form showed the specs for the rifle.  Between my registration and hers, I never took the completed build in to update their records.

All the receivers I have now have "Receiver Only" on the form, and no caveats about resale.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2022, 05:38:37 AM »
Curious:  was this particular firearm registered before, or after, the ATF 4473 was updated to include receivers as "Other", or were you still required to make sure the LGS categorized it as a Pistol/Handgun specifically?


All the receivers I have now have "Receiver Only" on the form, and no caveats about resale at the time.

At the time, my FFL told me he always checked "other" for stripped lower receivers.

The stripped lowers I purchased with my rifle permit are described as "receiver only" on my registrations and the stripped lowers I purchased with a pistol permit are described as "frame only" on my registrations.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2022, 10:45:42 AM »
At the time, my FFL told me he always checked "other" for stripped lower receivers.

The stripped lowers I purchased with my rifle permit are described as "receiver only" on my registrations and the stripped lowers I purchased with a pistol permit are described as "frame only" on my registrations.

Okay, that's the one critical detail that rarely gets included in these stories.

If you want the build a pistol, you need to get a handgun Permit to Acquire. 

If you use your long gun PTA, you've painted yourself into a proverbial corner:  rifle build only.

The permit you use for the transfer dictates whether or not it can become a pistol.

 :thumbsup:
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2022, 05:49:25 PM »
Okay, that's the one critical detail that rarely gets included in these stories.

If you want the build a pistol, you need to get a handgun Permit to Acquire. 

If you use your long gun PTA, you've painted yourself into a proverbial corner:  rifle build only.

The permit you use for the transfer dictates whether or not it can become a pistol.

 :thumbsup:
I thought I made this clear with reply #28 on this thread.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2022, 05:56:21 PM »
I thought I made this clear with reply #28 on this thread.

Yes, you did.

That was September 11, 2020.

Excuse me for not remembering .....

 :shaka:
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2022, 07:38:51 PM »
Yes, you did.

That was September 11, 2020.

Excuse me for not remembering .....

 :shaka:
Did you read reply #28 (April 8, 2022) from this thread?

 :shaka:

Rico808

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2022, 02:39:12 PM »
So can I…

Turn my pistol into a rifle?

Say I have a bolt action pitsol. Can I build it into a Semi-Auto Rifle?
& Can I build it back to bolt action a pistol?
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2022, 03:56:56 PM »
So can I…

Turn my pistol into a rifle?

Say I have a bolt action pitsol. Can I build it into a Semi-Auto Rifle?
& Can I build it back to bolt action a pistol?

If the frame was originally registered as a pistol, you can put any length barrel on it you want.  If you put a stock on it, you need to make the barrel 16" or longer.

If the frame was originally registered as a rifle, it can never legally be fitted with a <16" barrel unless you fill out the forms and pay the tax stamp fee to register with the ATF as an SBR.

If you're swapping parts to switch between a registered pistol and functional rifle, it's been suggested you have the 16"+ barrel on the upper first before installing the stock on the lower, as pistols can't have stocks legally (again, SBR).

That's my understanding, but I might have said something wrong.  Hopefully if I did, someone will correct me.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.