Red Flagging someone (Read 994 times)

hvybarrels

Red Flagging someone
« on: April 09, 2022, 11:47:05 PM »
Purely hypothetical of course, but let’s say I have a friend who’s family member is carrying an unregistered gun around and has threatened people with it. The hypothetical person is becoming more and more unstable and I’m trying to convince my friend to drop a dime on the guy but my friend doesn’t want to be retaliated against if HPD screws up the case. After all the Soros controlled “justice” system here loves to lock people up for traffic violations while letting murderers run around free.

There has to be some anonymous way of reporting it yeah?

Those tip websites say they are anonymous but police lie all the time. Nobody trusts the government for good reason, and of course calling on the phone is definitely out of the question.

Any suggestions in case this happens to someone I know some day?



Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.

powerlessbump

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2022, 09:36:54 AM »
Submit the tip from a public computer.

aieahound

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2022, 10:00:23 AM »
Do pay phones still exist ?
Honest question. There used to be a couple seemingly sole survivors. One at Wailupe beach park and one at Manoa Texaco (or whatever it is now) on the corner.

groveler

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2022, 10:43:22 AM »
Purely hypothetical of course, but let’s say I have a friend who’s family member is carrying an unregistered gun around and has threatened people with it. The hypothetical person is becoming more and more unstable and I’m trying to convince my friend to drop a dime on the guy but my friend doesn’t want to be retaliated against if HPD screws up the case. After all the Soros controlled “justice” system here loves to lock people up for traffic violations while letting murderers run around free.

There has to be some anonymous way of reporting it yeah?

Those tip websites say they are anonymous but police lie all the time. Nobody trusts the government for good reason, and of course calling on the phone is definitely out of the question.

Any suggestions in case this happens to someone I know some day?
Pretty simple, this is Hawaii.  Have the Ohana deal with it.
Nobody sees or hears anything.
The last person anyone wants to get involved is the
police.  Especially from what I read about Honolulu police.
 :grrr:

hvybarrels

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2022, 12:34:00 PM »
Pretty simple, this is Hawaii.  Have the Ohana deal with it.
Nobody sees or hears anything.
The last person anyone wants to get involved is the
police.  Especially from what I read about Honolulu police.
 :grrr:

Yeah there's that as well. What if someone needs help but not necessarily a fatal disruption to their circulatory system?

Some cops are jonesing for a justifiable homicide and you never know which ones will show up.

This whole thing makes me wonder if the point of red flagging was to encourage harassment, because if it's someone you really care about you don't want to ruin their lives.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2022, 01:02:59 PM »
If he's threatening other people with the gun (I assume you mean brandishing), he's already proven himself to be a danger to others.  Anyone not following the basic gun safety rules is a danger.

The question is, can you separate him from his gun without calling the Cops.  Cops responding to a report of someone armed and threatening others guarantees putting him in a position of either escalation or submission.  Sounds like he might not be the submissive type.

I tend to lean towards avoiding calling the Cops.  I remember the kid who was holding a knife and sitting on a chair in his driveway.  The family called 911, and seconds after the Cops arrived, the kid was lying dead in the driveway.  From the video I saw, the suspect was still seated when shot -- not an actual threat to anyone.  He just refused to drop the knife when ordered.

Failure to comply is an automatic death sentence -- execution to be carried out immediately.

Having said that, you need to define a line he can't cross, such as terrorizing people with the firearm.  Threatening others may or may not rise to that level depending on the way he did it.

Once he crosses that line, it's time to call the Cops, but I'd do it when he's not around the family/friends, just so nobody else gets hurt.  Of course, if he's seriously a "clear and present danger" to others, don't hesitate.

It's the quiet ones I worry about more.  Sounds like he's playing gangsta, and it makes him feel big to get in people's faces.  Probably piss his pants with 4 Cops drawing down on him.

Terroristic threatening is a crime.  If that's where he's already gone, I'd call the Cops.  Nobody should live in fear of what he'll do next.

Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

QUIETShooter

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2022, 01:04:58 PM »
With the current situation in Hawaii unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a true anonymous way to tip police about a potential person who poses a threat with a firearm.

Groveler's advice is probably the best course of action.  The fact that this person has already threatened people with the firearm is way past the scenario where one just "thinks" he is a potential threat to others by his actions, etc.

He actually threatened people.  Action needs to be taken.  And yes, retaliation is very real and possible.  But at this point this guy has passed the line and is a step closer to actually using it to harm people.

Still a very dangerous situation but the family needs to remind this person that there are red flag laws in effect in Hawaii.  Don't threaten him with it just remind him it is an option if he acts up.

I personally don't care for red flag laws because of how it can be abused by asshat spouses, partners, or acquaintances but this doesn't seem to be the case here.

This is an interesting scenario and am open to other people's suggestions.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

changemyoil66

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2022, 06:38:41 PM »
Isnt threatening someone with a gun already illegal? So no red flag needed.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2022, 07:10:40 PM »
Isnt threatening someone with a gun already illegal? So no red flag needed.
The investigators would need to talk to whomever was actually threatened.

This is definitely a "red flag" situation, in that RF laws allow the OP, who wasn't threatened, to file a police report -- assuming the law is written as such.  If the gun's not registered, and the Cops can find it, that alone removes that specific gun from the situation.

So, we have:

(1) A guy with an illegal/unregistered gun he illegally carries & threatened "people".

(2) A "family member" knows about the threats, either from direct observation (witness), direct involvement (was the threatened party), or someone told him/her (hearsay), and

(3)  A "friend of the family member" (OP) wants to know if someone (Family member?  Himself?) can report this threatening person to the Cops anonymously to avoid retaliation.

When it comes to reporting criminal behavior, you'll need evidence or direct involvement.  The Cops will go talk to the gun guy, but unless he admits what he is accused of doing (threatened someone with a gun), I doubt they can do anything.  After the Cops visit, he'll absolutely know someone reported him.  He's liable to go off on the first person he thinks could have called the Cops -- maybe the person he threatened?  That would make sense.

So, calling-in an anonymous report to HPD could escalate the situation, causing the gun guy to retaliate against the wrong person.

The best solution I think is for the gun to be taken away, either by family or the Cops.  Does gun guy live with anyone who'd be willing to confiscate the gun while he's asleep?  It can "go missing", no Cops are involved ruining anyone's life or extinguishing it, and he might just think he left it somewhere and can't remember.

Sure, he can always replace it.  That takes time and money.  It might keep him from being a danger to others for awhile.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2022, 02:52:29 PM »
Purely hypothetical of course, but let’s say I have a friend who’s family member is carrying an unregistered gun around and has threatened people with it. The hypothetical person is becoming more and more unstable and I’m trying to convince my friend to drop a dime on the guy but my friend doesn’t want to be retaliated against if HPD screws up the case. After all the Soros controlled “justice” system here loves to lock people up for traffic violations while letting murderers run around free.

There has to be some anonymous way of reporting it yeah?

Those tip websites say they are anonymous but police lie all the time. Nobody trusts the government for good reason, and of course calling on the phone is definitely out of the question.

Any suggestions in case this happens to someone I know some day?


This is the type of thing I have been saying we need a system in place to address.

Police aren't going to arrest someone or seize a firearm absent a credible witness to make a report which obviously makes it difficult for your hypothetical friend to report it. Your hypothetical friend could call 911 and talk to an officer anonymously (public area, no name given) and give him the information. This would be enough for the officer do document the incident and to attempt contact with the family member, sort of like a welfare check. Problem here is that if the guy answers the door, denies the allegations, and does not exhibit any signs of serious mental illness nothing would go further than a documenting report if I understand it correctly. Police do have access to a psychologist on call so maybe your friend could insist that the psychologist be contacted for further advisement. I would say call a cop and talk about it. Friend can remain anonymous and can even refuse to identify the person with the problem but get advice or resources from the officer.

I don't know exactly how the process works but there is a way for a mental health professional to file a request before a judge to take the person into custody for mental health evaluation. Even an ER doctor can do this to a patient who comes into an ER and exhibits serious signs of a dangerous mental health situation. So maybe the best option for your hypothetical friend is to try and reach out to a clinical psychologist and if they don't have an answer they should be able to direct your friend to the right people. Patient physician privacy covers almost everything but there is an exception when the medical professional believes the person is immediately dangerous to themselves or someone else.

Consider that your friend may have to get over his hesitation to be anonymous. It sucks to not remain anonymous but if the worst case scenario happened and someone, including the family member, ended up dying because a case couldn't be made without a known witness then your friend may have wished he didn't remain anyonemous.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2022, 03:21:55 PM »

This is the type of thing I have been saying we need a system in place to address.

Police aren't going to arrest someone or seize a firearm absent a credible witness to make a report which obviously makes it difficult for your hypothetical friend to report it. Your hypothetical friend could call 911 and talk to an officer anonymously (public area, no name given) and give him the information. This would be enough for the officer do document the incident and to attempt contact with the family member, sort of like a welfare check. Problem here is that if the guy answers the door, denies the allegations, and does not exhibit any signs of serious mental illness nothing would go further than a documenting report if I understand it correctly. Police do have access to a psychologist on call so maybe your friend could insist that the psychologist be contacted for further advisement. I would say call a cop and talk about it. Friend can remain anonymous and can even refuse to identify the person with the problem but get advice or resources from the officer.

I don't know exactly how the process works but there is a way for a mental health professional to file a request before a judge to take the person into custody for mental health evaluation. Even an ER doctor can do this to a patient who comes into an ER and exhibits serious signs of a dangerous mental health situation. So maybe the best option for your hypothetical friend is to try and reach out to a clinical psychologist and if they don't have an answer they should be able to direct your friend to the right people. Patient physician privacy covers almost everything but there is an exception when the medical professional believes the person is immediately dangerous to themselves or someone else.

Consider that your friend may have to get over his hesitation to be anonymous. It sucks to not remain anonymous but if the worst case scenario happened and someone, including the family member, ended up dying because a case couldn't be made without a known witness then your friend may have wished he didn't remain anyonemous.

Two points:

1.  Most people who already own guns know from the process that the existence of mental health issues can result in guns being confiscated and new purchases denied.  That fact alone keeps (I'm guessing) a bunch of people who could benefit from professional counseling from seeking help.  "I'm not going to see a behavioral therapist if it means I can lose my 2A rights."  The system meant to prevent firearms from being in the wrong hands can CAUSE firearms to remain in the wrong hands.

2.  I see you've progressed in your thinking about Red Flag laws.  You used to push for laws that confiscated first, then offered a "process" to regain the guns.  Now, you sound like you're adopting my philosophy:  If the person is dangerous enough to have his guns removed, he's probably dangerous enough to be taken into custody for evaluation and possible crimes needing investigating.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :geekdanc:

Mental health professionals, no matter how skilled or experienced, can't tell if an individual is a danger to themselves or others based on one initial interaction unless there are obvious signs of problems.  Short of the immediate display of symptoms, Cops having access to a psychologist on call isn't going to change anything in most circumstances.  If the symptoms are that acute, then I'm sure the Cop can identify those on his/her own before taking them into custody for an eval.

I agree with the "getting over being anonymous" comment to a point.  It's difficult to turn in a friend or family member in the first place because of how unfair the system can be.  if we were talking about growing pot or animal abuse, those crimes are not like terrorizing people with a firearm.  Much less risk in turning in the grower and the puppy mill owner than in turning in someone who appears violent.

It's not about just being anonymous.  It's about avoiding repercussions.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2022, 10:50:07 PM »
Two points:

1.  Most people who already own guns know from the process that the existence of mental health issues can result in guns being confiscated and new purchases denied.  That fact alone keeps (I'm guessing) a bunch of people who could benefit from professional counseling from seeking help.  "I'm not going to see a behavioral therapist if it means I can lose my 2A rights."  The system meant to prevent firearms from being in the wrong hands can CAUSE firearms to remain in the wrong hands.

2.  I see you've progressed in your thinking about Red Flag laws.  You used to push for laws that confiscated first, then offered a "process" to regain the guns.  Now, you sound like you're adopting my philosophy:  If the person is dangerous enough to have his guns removed, he's probably dangerous enough to be taken into custody for evaluation and possible crimes needing investigating.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :geekdanc:

Mental health professionals, no matter how skilled or experienced, can't tell if an individual is a danger to themselves or others based on one initial interaction unless there are obvious signs of problems.  Short of the immediate display of symptoms, Cops having access to a psychologist on call isn't going to change anything in most circumstances.  If the symptoms are that acute, then I'm sure the Cop can identify those on his/her own before taking them into custody for an eval.

I agree with the "getting over being anonymous" comment to a point.  It's difficult to turn in a friend or family member in the first place because of how unfair the system can be.  if we were talking about growing pot or animal abuse, those crimes are not like terrorizing people with a firearm.  Much less risk in turning in the grower and the puppy mill owner than in turning in someone who appears violent.

It's not about just being anonymous.  It's about avoiding repercussions.


1. There does need to be some faith in the mental healt professional that they will keep the concerns of the patient private as they are obligated to do (with a few exceptions)

2. It hasn't really changed. My advice was in the context of what system is currently in place and what resources are available. I don't disagree with the aspect of thinking the person should probably be in custody if they are too dangerous to have a firearm. (Generally speaking)

As for the anonymity I get where people would still be hesitant, talking to a cop about a friend or family member can be intimidating from a number of angles. I tried to tailor my recommendation in such a way to fit the person's problems and concerns.

DocMercy

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2022, 01:15:30 PM »
No one wants to get blowback for reporting someone who illegally owns a weapon , or carries one. The only solution is to "hope" that person uses the weapon in a crime, or enters a Federal or State building with a metal detector or scanner, and gets caught in the process. If you are an acquaintance of the person, give him some brass shells and let him enter a government building with these in his pocket. There is a novel where this trick was alluded to, resulting in an arrest and a charge of murder. The accused was a victim of circumstance. Author is Lawrence Block, and the book is "The Devil Knows You're Dead." Setting is in NYC, my old home town. I haven't finished the book, which means the ending could be different than guessed.
The city in the 1980's was riddled with crime, and some citizens illegally carried handguns that were used in self-defense. I can't infer whether the OP's acquaintance is carrying for SD or to start a fight, i.e., is he a Bernhard Hugo Goetz or not?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Red Flagging someone
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2022, 01:53:14 PM »
No one wants to get blowback for reporting someone who illegally owns a weapon , or carries one. The only solution is to "hope" that person uses the weapon in a crime, or enters a Federal or State building with a metal detector or scanner, and gets caught in the process. If you are an acquaintance of the person, give him some brass shells and let him enter a government building with these in his pocket. There is a novel where this trick was alluded to, resulting in an arrest and a charge of murder. The accused was a victim of circumstance. Author is Lawrence Block, and the book is "The Devil Knows You're Dead." Setting is in NYC, my old home town. I haven't finished the book, which means the ending could be different than guessed.
The city in the 1980's was riddled with crime, and some citizens illegally carried handguns that were used in self-defense. I can't infer whether the OP's acquaintance is carrying for SD or to start a fight, i.e., is he a Bernhard Hugo Goetz or not?

Really?  The only solution is hope the government catches him carrying?  Would he actually be stupid enough to carry the gun through a metal detector?

The scenario goes beyond merely carrying a gun illegally.  He's threatening people with it and demonstrating increasingly unstable behavior.

I understand the retaliation aspect, but the accused has the right to confront his accuser.  What you have a problem with is getting anyone else present to back up your story.  You can try to get video evidence, but that is risky.  HPD doesn't have to screw up the case.  Without anything more than your word, it's difficult to get a conviction. 

Let's say you give the Cops his name and address through anonymous means.  The Cops go to his house to interview him.  They aren't going to arrest him in his home even if he's found to be armed.  He's at his home.

The red flag laws are designed to sidestep all the evidentiary and legal hurdles that protect us against violations of our civil rights. 

Is the problem really that someone is carrying a firearm illegally, or is it more that he's brandishing and acting unstable?  I think if you were to take 2 minutes to call HPD to the scene, and they interview people on the spot, you'll have more corroborating accounts than waiting until you can be anonymous.  The more people tell the truth, the less chance an individual will be at risk for retaliation. 
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.