Neck thickness variance (Read 3603 times)

Brystont1

Neck thickness variance
« on: December 27, 2022, 07:18:06 PM »
How much case neck thickness variance do you guys expect from your brass? Like for example if I bought a bunch of brand new Lapua brass should I expect a lot of variance in the thickness of the neck? Im looking into some FL bushing dies (LE Wilson or Redding type S) but I don’t want to have to sort out the brass by case thickness and buy a different bushing for each batch of brass. I’m probably going way over board but just trying to understand the process.

drck1000

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2022, 12:05:37 AM »
I don’t measure neck thickness. The tools you will need for that will be pricey, at least my understanding. I go by measuring (more gauging) the thickness by measuring with the bullet seated.  That said, my context is PRS “style” shooting. Not F-Class or Benchrest where they are chasing pretty refined/precise specs.

My experience with Lapua brass is they are quite consistent in given lots. I’ve seen some minor variance between lots.  Think many neck turn than sorting. Guess it depends on how far you’re willing to go, which often comes with expensive measuring tools. Including measurements of things like powder throws.

Brystont1

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2022, 08:14:47 AM »
I don’t measure neck thickness. The tools you will need for that will be pricey, at least my understanding. I go by measuring (more gauging) the thickness by measuring with the bullet seated.  That said, my context is PRS “style” shooting. Not F-Class or Benchrest where they are chasing pretty refined/precise specs.

My experience with Lapua brass is they are quite consistent in given lots. I’ve seen some minor variance between lots.  Think many neck turn than sorting. Guess it depends on how far you’re willing to go, which often comes with expensive measuring tools. Including measurements of things like powder throws.

I think you’re right, I’ll probably just go with an expander mandrel to set neck tension. I’m no F class shooter either, I just like put meat in the freezer haha. Thank you!  :shaka:

Lihikai

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2022, 11:59:29 AM »
I mostly use Lee Collet Neck dies.  They have the advantage of evening out the neck thickness and the dies are cheap.

Rhed

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2022, 08:13:50 PM »
I don’t measure neck thickness. The tools you will need for that will be pricey, at least my understanding. I go by measuring (more gauging) the thickness by measuring with the bullet seated.  That said, my context is PRS “style” shooting. Not F-Class or Benchrest where they are chasing pretty refined/precise specs.

My experience with Lapua brass is they are quite consistent in given lots. I’ve seen some minor variance between lots.  Think many neck turn than sorting. Guess it depends on how far you’re willing to go, which often comes with expensive measuring tools. Including measurements of things like powder throws.
How do you know what neck bushing to get for your target neck tension? If you don’t measure neck thickness? And getting proper expander mandrel?

drck1000

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2022, 10:05:11 PM »
How do you know what neck bushing to get for your target neck tension? If you don’t measure neck thickness? And getting proper expander mandrel?
I don’t know the neck tension per se. More following recommendations. Like 0.289 bushing for 0.292 loaded round, so -0.003. Then 0.262 mandrels for 0.264, so -0.002. I’ve verified the mandrels via various methods and check the brass (albeit occasionally) with pin gauges.

Personal perspective is primarily about consistency. At least from those I follow their methods. Vice absolutes. I played around with wanting to test different bushing sizes, but I haven’t gone there.

How do you verify neck thickness? With ball micrometers or other gauges?  How do you account for the sloping of the case mouth?

I had a response prepped for the Op, but looks like it didn’t post. Anyways, one can and should take things as far as they want to for whatever confidence level. I just don’t have the time or discipline right now to chase the <0.25 MOA from the 0.35ish that I was averaging. At least before things got shut down. I walked the edges of the rabbit hole of finer powder throwers and scales, AMP press or other arbor presses that measure seating pressures. I haven’t gone down that road and decided what is good enough for me, at least right now. If folks want to neck turn, point bullets, etc rock on. Check out interviews from Erik Cortina where he has National and world champ benchrest and F-Class folks and they go in depth on their methods. Some might behind pay walls though. I’m just not at that level to venture that deep.

macsak

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2022, 06:03:50 AM »
heads

I don’t know the neck tension per se. More following recommendations. Like 0.289 bushing for 0.292 loaded round, so -0.003. Then 0.262 mandrels for 0.264, so -0.002. I’ve verified the mandrels via various methods and check the brass (albeit occasionally) with pin gauges.

Personal perspective is primarily about consistency. At least from those I follow their methods. Vice absolutes. I played around with wanting to test different bushing sizes, but I haven’t gone there.

How do you verify neck thickness? With ball micrometers or other gauges?  How do you account for the sloping of the case mouth?

I had a response prepped for the Op, but looks like it didn’t post. Anyways, one can and should take things as far as they want to for whatever confidence level. I just don’t have the time or discipline right now to chase the <0.25 MOA from the 0.35ish that I was averaging. At least before things got shut down. I walked the edges of the rabbit hole of finer powder throwers and scales, AMP press or other arbor presses that measure seating pressures. I haven’t gone down that road and decided what is good enough for me, at least right now. If folks want to neck turn, point bullets, etc rock on. Check out interviews from Erik Cortina where he has National and world champ benchrest and F-Class folks and they go in depth on their methods. Some might behind pay walls though. I’m just not at that level to venture that deep.

Rhed

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2022, 07:54:09 AM »
I don’t know the neck tension per se. More following recommendations. Like 0.289 bushing for 0.292 loaded round, so -0.003. Then 0.262 mandrels for 0.264, so -0.002. I’ve verified the mandrels via various methods and check the brass (albeit occasionally) with pin gauges.

Personal perspective is primarily about consistency. At least from those I follow their methods. Vice absolutes. I played around with wanting to test different bushing sizes, but I haven’t gone there.

How do you verify neck thickness? With ball micrometers or other gauges?  How do you account for the sloping of the case mouth?

I had a response prepped for the Op, but looks like it didn’t post. Anyways, one can and should take things as far as they want to for whatever confidence level. I just don’t have the time or discipline right now to chase the <0.25 MOA from the 0.35ish that I was averaging. At least before things got shut down. I walked the edges of the rabbit hole of finer powder throwers and scales, AMP press or other arbor presses that measure seating pressures. I haven’t gone down that road and decided what is good enough for me, at least right now. If folks want to neck turn, point bullets, etc rock on. Check out interviews from Erik Cortina where he has National and world champ benchrest and F-Class folks and they go in depth on their methods. Some might behind pay walls though. I’m just not at that level to venture that deep.
So you measure a seated round.. Ok I guess that works. I use a ball micrometer. I only measure a few taking thickness measurements of new brass. Taking couple measures by spin and stop. It’s kinda funny how Lapua is not as consistent as before. Peterson on the other hand is very consistent. Anyways after I take measurements, use the proper bushing for that lot, and 21st century mandrel. .002,.003, 0035, or 004. My bolt I use .003. I might try .0035 for my next reload.

drck1000

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2022, 09:48:08 AM »
So you measure a seated round.. Ok I guess that works. I use a ball micrometer. I only measure a few taking thickness measurements of new brass. Taking couple measures by spin and stop. It’s kinda funny how Lapua is not as consistent as before. Peterson on the other hand is very consistent. Anyways after I take measurements, use the proper bushing for that lot, and 21st century mandrel. .002,.003, 0035, or 004. My bolt I use .003. I might try .0035 for my next reload.
Dunno if what I am doing is right. Mostly following 2-3 folks who shoot F-Class and Benchrest, but also dabble on PRS and trying to refine process for each. I was getting good results, at least good enough for me. Might change as things progress. Both with my shooting and upgrades to loading equipment and say a dedicated loading room of my own. 

I’ve been told similar for Lapua brass. I measured basic stuff from different lots. Consistent within a lot slightly different between lots. I would have to check my notes, but I think 0.0005 to 0.001 differences. But that’s also pushing limits of my calipers. I tried dial calipers for a while, but don’t really anymore.

One test I haven’t done but was wondering is if the mandrels are in 0.0005 increments, to verify the variation in bullets are within that tolerance. I would hope so, but I should test/measure one day.

Rhed

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2022, 02:17:50 PM »
The other thing I like to take neck thickness is for the AMP. I know we have the Aztec feature. But before that came out, I use to just use AMPs recommended online annealing settings of different brand brass and specific neck thickness of that brand. I went back doing that way instead of sacrificing a case for Aztec. I cringed when I have to sacrifice a case just to get a setting for each lot I bust open. Honestly I didn’t see any different on brass life with standard vs aztec.

ren

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2022, 04:06:23 PM »
I find that annealing maintains consistent neck tension
Deeds Not Words

Rhed

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2022, 05:01:51 PM »
It really doesn’t take long to do some measurements. This picture a couple months ago. Using a 80$ Sinclair brand ball micrometer.



This was .308 Peterson brass.
.013x2=.026+.308= .334
a .330 bushing gives me a 4 thou neck down
I want a 3 thou neck tension, so I use a
21st century .305 expander mandrel

ren

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2022, 05:21:12 PM »
Deeds Not Words

drck1000

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2022, 05:45:24 PM »
The other thing I like to take neck thickness is for the AMP. I know we have the Aztec feature. But before that came out, I use to just use AMPs recommended online annealing settings of different brand brass and specific neck thickness of that brand. I went back doing that way instead of sacrificing a case for Aztec. I cringed when I have to sacrifice a case just to get a setting for each lot I bust open. Honestly I didn’t see any different on brass life with standard vs aztec.
AMP Annealer is one of the best investments I’ve made for reloading.

After you measure with ball micrometer, do you neck turn? Or mostly noting data?  Being able to measure I think is a good baseline. Neck turning opens a whole bigger can, at least for me.

Rhed

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2022, 08:00:22 PM »
AMP Annealer is one of the best investments I’ve made for reloading.

After you measure with ball micrometer, do you neck turn? Or mostly noting data?  Being able to measure I think is a good baseline. Neck turning opens a whole bigger can, at least for me.
I do not neck turn.. Ain’t neck turning is for you guys who has custom barrels with tight tolerance chambers? Again, I only measure neck thickness to know what bushing I need. Not all lots the same. Different brands, different thickness. Only neck down a thousands more my desired neck tension, then expand.
I remember you got AMP mark II? I have the older AMP mark I. Had to buy the Aztec separate when it came out. I don’t even use Aztec anymore. Sacrificing a case for each lot? Forget that, just measure neck thickness then look up the number AMP setting.. https://www.ampannealing.com/settings/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 08:15:28 PM by Rhed »

Rocky

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2022, 08:55:26 PM »


I Sooooooooooooooooo want to change the image and leave the labels.  :D
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

aletheuo137

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2022, 06:59:37 AM »
heads
Mouth

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk

drck1000

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2023, 12:31:52 PM »
I do not neck turn.. Ain’t neck turning is for you guys who has custom barrels with tight tolerance chambers? Again, I only measure neck thickness to know what bushing I need. Not all lots the same. Different brands, different thickness. Only neck down a thousands more my desired neck tension, then expand.
I remember you got AMP mark II? I have the older AMP mark I. Had to buy the Aztec separate when it came out. I don’t even use Aztec anymore. Sacrificing a case for each lot? Forget that, just measure neck thickness then look up the number AMP setting.. https://www.ampannealing.com/settings/
Yup. I have the version with Aztec. I did the sacrifice for both current batches of .308 and 6.5 cm. I had cases that were messed up from various causes anyways.

drck1000

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2023, 12:32:49 PM »
I Sooooooooooooooooo want to change the image and leave the labels.  :D
Extractor groove?  ???  ;D

Heavies

Re: Neck thickness variance
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2023, 04:35:27 PM »
I’ve done many experiments with case neck thickness variations and this is what I’ve found.

I’ve sorted brass within .004-.005” thickness to brass, outside to way outside that variation. This netted a noticeable reduction in uncalled fliers, when all other factors remained consistent.

Things I’ve noted.

Typically, high variance in case neck thickness correlates to variation in case body thickness as well. This is most noticeable in long cases, such as .30-06. Of course, one cannot actually measure below the neck. I conclude this because after firing, the entire case is bent like a banana. I’ve measured the neck in the shorter arc area, and noted this is the thickest part of the entire case. These noticeable “banana” cases are culled immediately.

My theory is that the thicker and uneven neck area does not release the bullet consistently on firing, thus causes fliers. Also the thicker and uneven brass thickness would cause in consistent volume inside the case, causing inconsistent pressure, thus higher ES/SD numbers.

Lapua brass typically has much less variation in thickness.

I’ve done Winchester brass, had to cull almost half of the cases. This brass is much cheaper, and after the cull, the rounds produced very good consistency and accuracy comparable to Lapua cases. Winchester brass usually doesn’t last as long as Lapua cases though.  However, even after the cull, one could get much more cases per dollar.

I also have always used the Lee collet neck sizer, after using a Redding body die. Reason being, the neck is sized exactly the same size as the mandrel (on the INSIDE).  My conclusion is, this two step sizing and the sorting of low variance neck thickness produces consistent neck tension and bullet release.