Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings (Read 2501 times)

randay

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2023, 01:24:36 PM »
So, you agree with me.

Good to know.

 :thumbsup: :geekdanc:

yes, of course, on everything.

Kalikikopa

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2023, 03:00:55 PM »
. Then came what stuck with me, he made the point that it only matters who has the guns.

The points I try to make in a firearms discussion, are
Very few guns have ever killed anyone. The person that pulled the trigger killed them with a gun.
"Assault" rifle is a made up term, and an unfair assumption that every gun is going to be used in the commission of a crime. I don't own assault weapons. I own a Defense AR-15, and Defense firearms
Only a small number of people in society have the mindset to commit a mass killing. If everyone in a society were trained, and armed, we would a ratio of good guys to bad would be much better than our police to protect vs people needed to be protected.
Not addressing the cause of the violence will not end it, it will just make criminals more creative. Prior to 2001, Nobody ever thought of Boeing as building assault planes

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2023, 09:14:02 PM »
You mean the same way you just assumed they have a reasonable explanation without knowing all the facts?

When an agency does something not within their scope and which they have never done in the past, it becomes a valid assumption they are acting outside of their mandated duties -- especially when there are so many other agencies already doing the same thing, such as FBI, DOJ, ATF, CDC, etc.

How much redundancy in government are you willing to tolerate?

I merely stated that there may be an explanation whereas you said there were none. Considering possible explanations isn't the same as assuming there are none.

Redundancy is common in scientific studies. One scientist often repeates a study or experiment done by another to see if the results can be confirmed. I guess you didn't consider that explanation did you?

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2023, 09:18:27 PM »
It's because our resources have to be focused on anti 2a lawmakers and organizations. I would say too bad the anti 2a people don't instead focus on mental health and keeping criminals behind bars. 

Majority of the guns possessed were done so illegally. Clue #1

Then half had mental health issues.  Not 10%, 15% or 30%.

My dad is anti 2a. But with the active shootings, he finally realized, the only way to stop them quickly is to shoot back.  So "let people carry their guns".

Agreed.
The mental health issue presents many problems though so it really is a difficult aspect to tackle.
From risk prediction reliability to the fact that mental health is on a spectrum, not on or off.

Interestingly, approximately half of all murder suspects were drunk at the time, the same for murder victims as well. If we could deal with the human tendency to get drunk, we would do more to make this world better than banning every weapon in existence.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2023, 09:27:16 PM »
I merely stated that there may be an explanation whereas you said there were none. Considering possible explanations isn't the same as assuming there are none.

Redundancy is common in scientific studies. One scientist often repeats a study or experiment done by another to see if the results can be confirmed. I guess you didn't consider that explanation did you?

Why must you argue about things which you know nothing?  You love to argue that something 'might" or "may" or "could" be opposite of what makes the most sense?  That adds nothing to the discussion other than contrary commentary for the sake of argument.

Your statement about redundancy also trails off from what I stated.  It's not about redundancy within the scope of a single study, but redundancy of government funded anti-2A studies within multiple agencies.  To date, none of the studies have resulted in significantly different outcomes, yet they keep spending more and more of our money to look for one -- because "agenda."

Redundancy in GOVERNMENT is inefficient and wasteful.  Trying to say these mass shooter studies are scientific is ridiculous and laughable.

Next you'll say the Secret Service is comprised of scientists.

"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2023, 09:29:51 PM »
Agreed.
The mental health issue presents many problems though so it really is a difficult aspect to tackle.
From risk prediction reliability to the fact that mental health is on a spectrum, not on or off.

Interestingly, approximately half of all murder suspects were drunk at the time, the same for murder victims as well. If we could deal with the human tendency to get drunk, we would do more to make this world better than banning every weapon in existence.
It's been tried.

I guess you skipped that part of history class discussing our Prohibition Era.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2023, 09:32:58 PM »
It's been tried.

I guess you skipped that part of history class discussing our Prohibition Era.

Like I said " If we could deal with the human tendency to get drunk...."

Additionally in some ways it could be argued it did work, but that's another topic.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2023, 09:36:44 PM »
Like I said " If we could deal with the human tendency to get drunk...."

Additionally in some ways it could be argued it did work, but that's another topic.

If something can be argued, i'm sure you'll find a way....
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2023, 09:36:49 PM »
Why must you argue about things which you know nothing?  You love to argue that something 'might" or "may" or "could" be opposite of what makes the most sense?  That adds nothing to the discussion other than contrary commentary for the sake of argument.

Your statement about redundancy also trails off from what I stated.  It's not about redundancy within the scope of a single study, but redundancy of government funded anti-2A studies within multiple agencies.  To date, none of the studies have resulted in significantly different outcomes, yet they keep spending more and more of our money to look for one -- because "agenda."

Redundancy in GOVERNMENT is inefficient and wasteful.  Trying to say these mass shooter studies are scientific is ridiculous and laughable.

Next you'll say the Secret Service is comprised of scientists.

I wasn't trying to argue, just pointing out your non-sequitur. I think anytime objectivity is brought to the table it benefits the discussion.
I gave you one possible explanation you didn't  seem to consider, one out of a number you didn't seem to consider. You just went straight to a specific conclusion, one you would have a bias towards.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2023, 09:37:50 PM »
If something can be argued, i'm sure you'll find a way....

If the data supports it then yes

changemyoil66

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2023, 09:49:19 AM »
If the data supports it then yes

Since data is almost never 0%, even a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% can support any argument. #whataboutism

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2023, 11:51:43 AM »
Since data is almost never 0%, even a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% can support any argument. #whataboutism

Thanks.  Glad someone gets my point.

It's not enough to rely on data.  Data can be very old and no longer accurate, intentionally manipulated, or just plain bad -- as in poorly collected and reported.

But, some people think data exists without humans.  We just "discover it" in its native habitat to share with others.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2023, 09:37:04 PM »
Since data is almost never 0%, even a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% can support any argument. #whataboutism

No one is talking about a 0.0001% anything so....

We can analyze whether prohibition helped using many different metrics. Some metrics indicated it made a difference, some indicated it didn't. Hence my comment to flap. He wanted to imply I didn't know my history yet he was the one unaware that in some ways it did work so his snark is just a mark against himself. Next time maybe he should reply with something useful instead of an empty and incorrect snark.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2023, 02:18:54 PM »
No one is talking about a 0.0001% anything so....

We can analyze whether prohibition helped using many different metrics. Some metrics indicated it made a difference, some indicated it didn't. Hence my comment to flap. He wanted to imply I didn't know my history yet he was the one unaware that in some ways it did work so his snark is just a mark against himself. Next time maybe he should reply with something useful instead of an empty and incorrect snark.

You are correct.  There were many benefits from Prohibition, but not to society at large.
Quote
But there were many who benefitted from Prohibition. People in organized crime
clearly benefitted. Thanks to the government, the value of their illegal products
skyrocketed. This generated enormous fortunes almost overnight. The bootleggers
used their untaxed income to corrupt Prohibition agents, police, border guards,
and officials at all levels of government.

In essence, people got money not to do their jobs. It was ‘easy money.’ Others
got money to tip off gangsters about raids in advance. Again, doing so was easy
and highly profitable.

Prohibition benefitted numerous people. There were so many legal cases for
Prohibition law violations that they backlogged courts. So courts hired more
judges. Lawyers made money both to prosecute and to defend those charged
with violating Prohibition. Clerks and others made overtime pay.

People could legally buy liquor with a doctor’s prescription. So they quickly developed
numerous maladies for which whiskey was the cure. Doctors made the equivalent of
over a half billion dollars per year by writing prescriptions for medicinal liquor.

The volume of alcohol sold this way was enormous. Prohibitionists were not happy.
They proposed legislation to restrict this gaping loophole. But the American Medical
Association vigorously opposed the measure. It would be ‘interference with medical
practice’ and the doctor-patient relationship. More important, it would reduce this easy
income.

There were many beneficiaries of Prohibition. For example, Prohibition quickly led to a
700% increase in grape acreage in California. People suddenly began demanding grapes.
Not to eat. But for use in homemade wine.

Seattle  police sergeant Roy Olmstead lost his job for moonlighting as a bootlegger. He
then entered the bootlegging business full-time. He quickly became one of Puget Sound’s
largest employers. On his payroll were drivers, dispatchers, warehouse workers,
mechanics and rum running crews. Therer were salespeople, collectors, secretaries,
bookkeepers, accountants, and lawyers. Olmstead chartered a fleet of boats and operated
a fleet of cars and trucks.

The production, distribution and sale of alcohol had been one-eighth of the entire U.S.
economy. Prohibition destroyed this important sector. In doing so, it wiped out many legal
jobs. For example, in 1916 there were 1,300 legal breweries. Ten years later, there were
none. But Prohibition also led to the creation of many jobs. And many fortunes. Upon Repeal,
many organized criminals invested their profits in Las Vegas. That sleepy town has boomed
ever since.

Did Prohibition work economically? Did its benefits outweigh its costs. That’s for you to decide.
https://www.alcoholproblemsandsolutions.org/did-prohibition-work/


No need for a "study" when the facts are well documented.

There's no way to know if the total number of people consuming alcohol decreased as a result of the law.  Just like with illegal drugs, people find a way.  What is known is that without government taxation on moonshine, there is no accounting for how much alcohol was consumed.

What is known is that people wishing to partake would be more likely to over indulge in a speak easy and other places where alcohol was still served, just not openly.  Gone were the bars and taverns where one could drop in for a casual beer.  If one wanted to drink during prohibition, the customer likely over-compensated for being dry most of the time.

There are benefits to drinking, such as lower incidence of heart disease and stroke when alcohol is consumed in moderation.  Those that chose to follow the law and abstain from drinking saw a rise in heart-related ailments. 

So, some people benefitted greatly from prohibition if they were on the wrong side of the law. Given that it took a relatively short amount of time to repeal the law, it is safe to assume the cure was worse than the disease.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2023, 09:58:22 PM »
You are correct.  There were many benefits from Prohibition, but not to society at large.https://www.alcoholproblemsandsolutions.org/did-prohibition-work/


No need for a "study" when the facts are well documented.

There's no way to know if the total number of people consuming alcohol decreased as a result of the law.  Just like with illegal drugs, people find a way.  What is known is that without government taxation on moonshine, there is no accounting for how much alcohol was consumed.

What is known is that people wishing to partake would be more likely to over indulge in a speak easy and other places where alcohol was still served, just not openly.  Gone were the bars and taverns where one could drop in for a casual beer.  If one wanted to drink during prohibition, the customer likely over-compensated for being dry most of the time.

There are benefits to drinking, such as lower incidence of heart disease and stroke when alcohol is consumed in moderation.  Those that chose to follow the law and abstain from drinking saw a rise in heart-related ailments. 

So, some people benefitted greatly from prohibition if they were on the wrong side of the law. Given that it took a relatively short amount of time to repeal the law, it is safe to assume the cure was worse than the disease.

I have no intention of turning this thread into a debate of prohibition. Having said that, I do appreciate your calm nuanced reply here.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2023, 11:08:51 PM »
I have no intention of turning this thread into a debate of prohibition. Having said that, I do appreciate your calm nuanced reply here.

Basically, you're unwilling/unable to support your previous comment with data, that comment being:

No one is talking about a 0.0001% anything so....

We can analyze whether prohibition helped using many different metrics. Some metrics indicated it made a difference, some indicated it didn't. Hence my comment to flap. He wanted to imply I didn't know my history yet he was the one unaware that in some ways it did work so his snark is just a mark against himself. Next time maybe he should reply with something useful instead of an empty and incorrect snark.

#Snark

 :rofl:
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: Jan 2023 US Secret Service Report: Study on Mass Shootings
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2023, 10:18:01 PM »
Basically, you're unwilling/unable to support your previous comment with data, that comment being:

#Snark

 :rofl:

Nice Try  :stopjack: