Post by: ren on December 16, 2016, 09:44:19 AM
Won't buy any more firearms till this is addressed.
In case, LGS's try to gauge what the market will look like with RapBack in place.
Suggest that they get involved as well.
Nice pistolas out there and good deals to be had as I venture into bullseye shooting. ;) but until then no more new firearms
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 10:59:19 AM
Post by: Jl808 on December 16, 2016, 12:20:18 PM
Post by: Heavies on December 16, 2016, 01:04:29 PM
Post by: FBI on December 16, 2016, 01:17:25 PM
I can't buy any firearms u till this is resolved, I will not sign any waiver of my rightsPlease don't take this wrong, but any time you have to ask permission to buy a gun and then
register that gun you have surrendered your rights. That is what drives me nuts about Hawaiian
gun owners. You are just like people heading to Auschwitz, you don't have a clue, you
just have not reached the end of the rail line just yet.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 16, 2016, 01:36:18 PM
Does anyone remember the answer to whether the rap back would eliminate the waiting period for those who already own firearms?
Post by: ren on December 16, 2016, 01:59:37 PM
Please don't take this wrong, but any time you have to ask permission to buy a gun and then
register that gun you have surrendered your rights. That is what drives me nuts about Hawaiian
gun owners. You are just like people heading to Auschwitz, you don't have a clue, you
just have not reached the end of the rail line just yet.
Well I've "tolerated" this as the left, antis have always asked for.
Look at what tolerance has given us with not only gun rights.
I'm guilty. I was compassionate to the other side.
Post by: Garuda on December 16, 2016, 02:24:50 PM
Well I've "tolerated" this as the left, antis have always asked for.
Look at what tolerance has given us with not only gun rights.
I'm guilty. I was compassionate to the other side.
Waiting it out as well.
Tolerance is a dangerous thing in this case. It's too bad classes on the constitution based on it's original intent wasn't mandatory for everyone since its inception. What a different world it would be.
Post by: Tom_G on December 16, 2016, 03:09:52 PM
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 03:13:48 PM
Black powder Renaissance?
You still need a permit to purchase black powder firearms, You are not required to register them tho.
Post by: suka on December 16, 2016, 03:47:10 PM
Post by: dirtylickins on December 16, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
09/23/2014
That the government is obsessed with databases and data collection is not news. The FBI plans for its newest mega-database, Next Generation Identification, to be the largest collection of personal biometric information in the world. It will include information collected from everyday arrests, immigration and customs enforcement, the State Department, FBI and other special investigations, public sources (including photos and video from surveillance), possibly the military, and now, wherever local agencies and companies participate, from employers.
The NGI aims to move "beyond fingerprints" into the Brave New World of full spectrum biometrics. The database will include the following information on tens, possibly hundreds of millions of people:
electronic fingerprints
palm prints
photos (with face recognition technology)
iris scans
tattoos, scars and markings
voice
gait
names, associations, history of residence, employment, arrests, etc.
'Rap back': always watching
The FBI has run criminal background checks for state and local agencies, as well as employers, for some time now. But with NGI, the agency has a new plan: the "rap back" scheme. It will be voluntary — but the decision to participate will reside with the employer, not the employee. In other words, if your boss wants to sign up, tough luck.
Here's how it will work: the boss at a company or organization signs an agreement with the FBI to implement the "rap back" program. You'd like to work there, and submit to a background check to do so. Your fingerprints are taken before you get your job, a routine part of the criminal background check, your almost-boss tells you. The fingerprints are then sent to the FBI, whereupon the agency makes a determination about your criminal history, and informs your almost-boss about whether or not you are likely to be a good hire.
That was all old news. Here's the kicker: under the new plan, the FBI will retain your fingerprints, even if you've never committed a crime, so that if you are arrested or get into any trouble, the agency can inform your boss of your arrest. Behind your back.
Nice jobs program, huh? Read more about NGI.
UPDATE: EPIC has posted FBI documents about the rap-back program.
PRACTICE PRIVACY
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 05:15:15 PM
http://www.search.org/files/pdf/NGIRapBackNon-CriminalJusticePolicyandImplementationGuide--Version2-1.pdf (http://www.search.org/files/pdf/NGIRapBackNon-CriminalJusticePolicyandImplementationGuide--Version2-1.pdf)
Post by: robtmc on December 16, 2016, 06:15:15 PM
I can't buy any firearms u till this is resolved, I will not sign any waiver of my rightsI snuck one last thing in before this Stalinist law went into effect.
Big kicker will now be if they try to make it retroactive to those of us that went through the old Hawaii registration bullshit.
Told the wife "I will not comply" so be ready to move to Arizona or be married to a criminal.
Post by: luckydog1 on December 16, 2016, 06:31:26 PM
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 06:38:52 PM
Post by: ren on December 16, 2016, 06:41:41 PM
Anti gunners have won this round just hearing your comments. Fewer guns in circulation is what they want to feel more secure. We shall see.
No they haven't. I still have an interest in firearms and the 2A. I will continue to promote the 2A and will procure firearms in the future. :thumbsup:
This is a battle they won. We are planning to win the war.
I think that with this President we shouldn't fear price spikes like we witnessed in 2012. I can put off firearms purchases and donate that potential $42 for rapback enrollment to the defense of London's cause.
BTW, thank you London for your efforts. If I remember you are an Aussie? If so, that speaks volumes of you. I'm ashamed that as a citizen born in the USA I didn't pursue this matter with the same amount of conviction you did. :thumbsup:
Post by: macsak on December 16, 2016, 07:14:31 PM
No they haven't. I still have an interest in firearms and the 2A. I will continue to promote the 2A and will procure firearms in the future. :thumbsup:
This is a battle they won. We are planning to win the war.
I think that with this President we shouldn't fear price spikes like we witnessed in 2012. I can put off firearms purchases and donate that potential $42 for rapback enrollment to the defense of London's cause.
BTW, thank you London for your efforts. If I remember you are an Aussie? If so, that speaks volumes of you. I'm ashamed that as a citizen born in the USA I didn't pursue this matter with the same amount of conviction you did. :thumbsup:
Umm
His screen name is "London" 808
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Post by: haynplumma on December 16, 2016, 07:18:26 PM
UmmLol
His screen name is "London" 808
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 07:27:31 PM
If I remember you are an Aussie?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/xT9DPJVjlYHwWsZRxm/200w.gif)
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 07:29:02 PM
Umm
His screen name is "London" 808
It makes it funnier that he even typed in the name in his comment lol,
Post by: ren on December 16, 2016, 07:53:04 PM
I went to publik skool.
anyways :oops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hOLm_k6eCs
Post by: robtmc on December 16, 2016, 07:55:39 PM
Rapback can't be done retroactively, they don't have your finger prints (they are doet d after 30 days)30 days after what? "doet d"?
Last time I registered something, they did not ask to do prints again. Either they were still on file or they no longer required them. Was long gun related though.
Post by: Heavies on December 16, 2016, 08:21:07 PM
UmmLondon is in New Zealand, ain't it? ... ;D :worship:
His screen name is "London" 808
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 16, 2016, 08:26:39 PM
FBI’S “RAP-BACK” PROGRAM from back in 2014 some interesting facts. The example they use is from a employment but point being is you have no say in the matter.
09/23/2014
That the government is obsessed with databases and data collection is not news. The FBI plans for its newest mega-database, Next Generation Identification, to be the largest collection of personal biometric information in the world. It will include information collected from everyday arrests, immigration and customs enforcement, the State Department, FBI and other special investigations, public sources (including photos and video from surveillance), possibly the military, and now, wherever local agencies and companies participate, from employers.
The NGI aims to move "beyond fingerprints" into the Brave New World of full spectrum biometrics. The database will include the following information on tens, possibly hundreds of millions of people:
electronic fingerprints
palm prints
photos (with face recognition technology)
iris scans
tattoos, scars and markings
voice
gait
names, associations, history of residence, employment, arrests, etc.
'Rap back': always watching
The FBI has run criminal background checks for state and local agencies, as well as employers, for some time now. But with NGI, the agency has a new plan: the "rap back" scheme. It will be voluntary — but the decision to participate will reside with the employer, not the employee. In other words, if your boss wants to sign up, tough luck.
Here's how it will work: the boss at a company or organization signs an agreement with the FBI to implement the "rap back" program. You'd like to work there, and submit to a background check to do so. Your fingerprints are taken before you get your job, a routine part of the criminal background check, your almost-boss tells you. The fingerprints are then sent to the FBI, whereupon the agency makes a determination about your criminal history, and informs your almost-boss about whether or not you are likely to be a good hire.
That was all old news. Here's the kicker: under the new plan, the FBI will retain your fingerprints, even if you've never committed a crime, so that if you are arrested or get into any trouble, the agency can inform your boss of your arrest. Behind your back.
Nice jobs program, huh? Read more about NGI.
UPDATE: EPIC has posted FBI documents about the rap-back program.
PRACTICE PRIVACY
The FBI already has much of this data themselves, or they have access to the data simply by asking for it from state or municipal agencies. The thing rap back does is puts it all in a central database and shares it. If the FBI wanted to see information on Hawaii gun owners they can just ask HPD for it and they would get it. The information is not all that new, only the ease of access. People in Hawaii are already in a database. Just now HPD will get notified if we get convicted of a crime elsewhere rather than having to find it by random or through your next permit to purchase.
Post by: ren on December 16, 2016, 08:30:37 PM
The FBI already has much of this data themselves, or they have access to the data simply by asking for it from state or municipal agencies. The thing rap back does is puts it all in a central database and shares it. If the FBI wanted to see information on Hawaii gun owners they can just ask HPD for it and they would get it. The information is not all that new, only the ease of access. People in Hawaii are already in a database. Just now HPD will get notified if we get convicted of a crime elsewhere rather than having to find it by random or through your next permit to purchase.
isn't that what NICS is for?
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 16, 2016, 08:32:47 PM
isn't that what NICS is for?
It doesn't provide automatic notification. Someone would have to do a search to find it if I understand correctly. HPD doesn't have the time or money to regularly run NCIC checks on the hundreds of thousands of gun owners on this island.
I think all elected officials should be entered into the system before gun owners.
Post by: whynow? on December 16, 2016, 08:57:02 PM
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 08:58:57 PM
30 days after what? "doet d"?
Last time I registered something, they did not ask to do prints again. Either they were still on file or they no longer required them. Was long gun related though.
Deleted sorry,
According to MAUI PD, only the first BG ch ck is a full FBI check with finger prints, after 30days the finger prints expire and are deleted from the system, any time you do a permit after that it's a NICS (name and social) check. The thumb print was for verification so if something came up at a latter date they could look at your permit and thumb print to prove it was you who registered the gun.
Rapback saves your prints forever and even after you die are archived.
The waiver allows them to save them (any one in DOD, government, immigrate etc....) . they already have your prints
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 09:00:01 PM
How's about only convicted criminals be entered in a criminal data base. Or maybe the assumption of this state is that everyone is a criminal, they just haven't been caught yet.
bINGO,
There assumption is all gun owners must be willing to commit crimes and as such must be monitored
Post by: scorpio ps on December 16, 2016, 09:25:54 PM
Post by: London808 on December 16, 2016, 10:05:46 PM
The British are coming, again.English.... there is a difference
Post by: robtmc on December 17, 2016, 08:20:17 AM
The waiver allows them to save them (any one in DOD, government, immigrate etc....) . they already have your printsYeah, after a career that had me holding classified clearances up to TS, figured I am well documented already, so printing me by HPD back when was superfluous.
Post by: Heavies on December 17, 2016, 10:57:25 AM
Yeah, after a career that had me holding classified clearances up to TS, figured I am well documented already, so printing me by HPD back when was superfluous.The point of this whole deal is not that. The point is they are registering you just for the fact you are a gun owner.
Post by: mrgaf on December 17, 2016, 01:27:00 PM
Post by: changemyoil66 on December 17, 2016, 06:36:02 PM
English.... there is a differenceLike hayn, samoan, and tongan hahahha.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Post by: mrgaf on December 17, 2016, 08:18:52 PM
The point of this whole deal is not that. The point is they are registering you just for the fact you are a gun owner.Agree.... to stop buying guns because of this fiasco means the anti gun libertards win.... keep buying, support your LGS as much as you can, hope the new admin will call Rap Back for what it is (BS), say no way and not let the Federal Bureau of Idiots participate and the state get their asses sued off. Know it's alot to hope for but until we vote these idiots out of state/city and county, change will come very slow. :shaka:
Post by: hvybarrels on December 17, 2016, 08:31:21 PM
Post by: London808 on December 17, 2016, 08:37:19 PM
Agree.... to stop buying guns because of this fiasco means the anti gun libertards win.... keep buying, support your LGS as much as you can, hope the new admin will call Rap Back for what it is (BS), say no way and not let the Federal Bureau of Idiots participate and the state get their asses sued off. Know it's alot to hope for but until we vote these idiots out of state/city and county, change will come very slow. :shaka:
My understanding is, That even if i can get rapback kicked out, Those who enrolled in it signed a waiver giving up those rights. If you are in, I dont know if i can get you out.
Post by: Tom_G on December 17, 2016, 11:41:14 PM
You still need a permit to purchase black powder firearms, You are not required to register them tho.
You may need a permit to purchase within the state, but you can certainly transport black powder firearms that you legally own on the mainland back here. I mean, sure, it's a hassle, but it is a way to legally avoid enrollment in rap back while continuing to make purchases.
Post by: z06psi on December 18, 2016, 12:04:35 AM
support your LGS as much as you can,
So when are the LGSs going to get in this fight? There is a lot of money going out of state through one I know but little is done about them getting involved in this fight.
Post by: mauiboi9 on December 18, 2016, 02:05:43 AM
Post by: punaperson on December 18, 2016, 07:44:01 AM
So when are the LGSs going to get in this fight? There is a lot of money going out of state through one I know but little is done about them getting involved in this fight.One local retailer here told me he has wanted to put notices and petitions on various 2A issues (including Kobujiri's "no issue" CCW policy) but fears reprisals by local officials (in various departments) who could easily make his business difficult if not impossible. Is that concern justified? I don't know, but with the way things seem to work around here, I wouldn't be surprised. >:(
Post by: London808 on December 18, 2016, 08:57:04 AM
From what i was told from MPD is that any permit application after Dec. 5th your in rap back. But if you have a valid long gun permit u can still register until Dec. 31st without rapback. Once Jan 1st hits all registrations will be in rap back. Im ordering as much stripped lower receivers as i can to keep me busy till the rap back is resolved. So after Jan 1st only ammo and parts for me.
I spoke to MPD on Thursday and was told : Any Firearms transaction from December 4th requires the signing of the waivers and paying of the fee or Transaction will be denied. MPD wont even accept applications without the Rapback form as they cant accept incomplete applications
Post by: z06psi on December 18, 2016, 09:54:56 AM
One local retailer here told me he has wanted to put notices and petitions on various 2A issues (including Kobujiri's "no issue" CCW policy) but fears reprisals by local officials (in various departments) who could easily make his business difficult if not impossible. Is that concern justified? I don't know, but with the way things seem to work around here, I wouldn't be surprised. >:(
I feel, I may be wrong, that they sit too much on the sidelines. I am not talking about the mom and pop shops. The bigger ones need to get together with legal action or at least give anonymously to fight this stuff. I see sideline sitting not wanting to get involved.
Post by: Heavies on December 18, 2016, 10:26:19 AM
Black powder Renaissance?:geekdanc: :geekdanc: :geekdanc: :geekdanc: :geekdanc:
Post by: rklapp on December 18, 2016, 11:53:40 AM
I wonder when the NRA is getting into this fight? I couldn't find much on the web.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20161205/hawaii-firearms-permit-application-fee-increases-due-to-implementation-of-the-rap-back-system
Post by: London808 on December 18, 2016, 12:35:32 PM
That's good to hear. I have a VEPR coming in on Wednesday so heading to HPD after to register.
I wonder when the NRA is getting into this fight? I couldn't find much on the web.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20161205/hawaii-firearms-permit-application-fee-increases-due-to-implementation-of-the-rap-back-system
When you go to register it you will be charged $42, Fingerprinted and photographed for insertion into rapback.
Post by: ren on December 18, 2016, 12:57:36 PM
How about anytime a person renews their drivers license be entered into a liquor buying database - to track when and where they buy alcohol. Or how about an alcohol tracking bracelet.
Here's a look at some DUI cases that resulted in deaths.
http://khon2.com/2016/09/10/man-arrested-for-negligent-homicide-dui-in-deadly-nanakuli-crash/ (http://khon2.com/2016/09/10/man-arrested-for-negligent-homicide-dui-in-deadly-nanakuli-crash/)
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/13034193/driver-in-deadly-dui-crash-tearfully-apologizes-begins-serving-18-month-sentence (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/13034193/driver-in-deadly-dui-crash-tearfully-apologizes-begins-serving-18-month-sentence)
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/33919285/infant-toddler-hospitalized-following-waimanalo-pedestrian-crash (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/33919285/infant-toddler-hospitalized-following-waimanalo-pedestrian-crash)
How many of us law abiding 2A citizens who lawfully register firearms commit crimes with them as compared to the above cases?
Post by: punaperson on December 18, 2016, 03:41:54 PM
How many of us law abiding 2A citizens who lawfully register commit crimes with them as compared to the above cases?You make the same mistake that I am consistently guilty of: believing that the legal system, law enforcement, legislators, prosecutors and judges are capable of, and should be, rational and logical. When it comes to "guns": not gonna happen. :crazy: Note additionally the extremely high incidence of ignorance and/or lying.
Post by: drck1000 on December 19, 2016, 08:47:07 AM
Had/have no choice. Ordered my pistol and wasn't able to cancel it. OGC has it now so I'll have to bite the bullet so to speak. Anyway, 21 years in the Navy with TS/SCI clearances and 28 years in DoD Civil Service with even higher clearances than I had in the Navy. Probably on every sort of database you can think of but will continue to buy guns and give the state and libertards the finger each time I go to the range.... :crazy: :rofl: ;) :D :thumbsup:Not that many years of service as you (not even close really ;D ), but relative to database wise, I'm pretty much in the same boat. I have friends who will ask "what do I have to hide"? Well, nothing. It's the principal of the matter.
I will eventually buy guns again, but just not for a while. Partially because of RapBack, but more because I had made purchases over the last year in anticipation of things. Honestly, RapBack wasn't really one of them, at least not at the time.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 19, 2016, 12:12:14 PM
The City is so misguided in this. They should apply RapBack to our drinking and driving problem. There is no constitutional right to drink yet our courts treat it as if there is. Lenient sentences. No accountability. Judges saying that there is nothing to bring back the deceased, therefore, the light sentences.
How about anytime a person renews their drivers license be entered into a liquor buying database - to track when and where they buy alcohol. Or how about an alcohol tracking bracelet.
Here's a look at some DUI cases that resulted in deaths.
http://khon2.com/2016/09/10/man-arrested-for-negligent-homicide-dui-in-deadly-nanakuli-crash/ (http://khon2.com/2016/09/10/man-arrested-for-negligent-homicide-dui-in-deadly-nanakuli-crash/)
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/13034193/driver-in-deadly-dui-crash-tearfully-apologizes-begins-serving-18-month-sentence (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/13034193/driver-in-deadly-dui-crash-tearfully-apologizes-begins-serving-18-month-sentence)
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/33919285/infant-toddler-hospitalized-following-waimanalo-pedestrian-crash (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/33919285/infant-toddler-hospitalized-following-waimanalo-pedestrian-crash)
How many of us law abiding 2A citizens who lawfully register firearms commit crimes with them as compared to the above cases?
When you get arrested for drunk driving, jurisdictions will go and inform other jurisdictions that someone has been convicted and if their license was taken away. Not exactly like rap back but there is a nationwide system that alerts the DMV if a resident got in trouble somewhere else.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 19, 2016, 12:13:01 PM
Post by: ren on December 19, 2016, 12:21:45 PM
When you get arrested for drunk driving, jurisdictions will go and inform other jurisdictions that someone has been convicted and if their license was taken away. Not exactly like rap back but there is a nationwide system that alerts the DMV if a resident got in trouble somewhere else.does that system cost other innocent drivers money?
Post by: stangzilla on December 19, 2016, 12:42:20 PM
Does anyone remember the answer to whether the rap back would eliminate the waiting period for those who already own firearms?
once enrolled in rapback, there's no need for a new background check since its an ongoing check.
would make logical sense to do away with the waiting period and renewal of long gun permit bc they wont do another background check since you're in rapback.
but we're talking about HPD firearms division here. logical sense does not apply.
Post by: Jl808 on December 19, 2016, 12:42:58 PM
Does anyone remember the answer to whether the rap back would eliminate the waiting period for those who already own firearms?
:Crickets:
Of course it won't happen. So far, these guys just make changes to further take away our rights, never give.
Post by: London808 on December 19, 2016, 08:21:08 PM
Not in the Classifieds section as i dont want to cause confusion.
I need to purchase a Handgun and will require a bill of sale and ( Serial number and such for a permit). You may have to keep hold of this handgun for a long ass time.
Must be the cheapest handgun on earth as i dont want to tie up any money i dont have to.
Post by: suka on December 19, 2016, 08:25:36 PM
$10 from Home Depot
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VkLD3SSfJQ8/maxresdefault.jpg)
Post by: robtmc on December 19, 2016, 08:27:41 PM
From what i was told from MPD is that any permit application after Dec. 5th your in rap back. But if you have a valid long gun permit u can still register until Dec. 31st without rapback. Once Jan 1st hits all registrations will be in rap back. Im ordering as much stripped lower receivers as i can to keep me busy till the rap back is resolved. So after Jan 1st only ammo and parts for me.Ended up much the same.
Post by: London808 on December 19, 2016, 08:29:33 PM
Why don't you just try to register a homemade firearm?
$10 from Home Depot
Needs to be a handgun, Needs to be registered with HPD,
Also, In Hawaii you cant make a gun without a permit, Doing so is a violation of HRS 134-2
No person shall acquire the ownership of a firearm, whether usable or unusable, serviceable or unserviceable, modern or antique, registered under prior law or by a prior owner or unregistered, either by purchase, gift, inheritance, bequest, or in any other manner, whether procured in the State or imported by mail, express, freight, or otherwise, until the person has first procured from the chief of police of the county of the person's place of business
Post by: jc2721 on December 19, 2016, 09:17:58 PM
WTB, HANDGUN :SEC has a .22 revolver on consignment for $25, is that cheap enough?
Not in the Classifieds section as i dont want to cause confusion.
I need to purchase a Handgun and will require a bill of sale and ( Serial number and such for a permit). You may have to keep hold of this handgun for a long ass time.
Must be the cheapest handgun on earth as i dont want to tie up any money i dont have to.
Post by: London808 on December 19, 2016, 09:22:09 PM
SEC has a .22 revolver on consignment for $25, is that cheap enough?
Trying to avoid stores as i dont want them to potentially hold onto something for months/years/forever Thanks for the tip tho.
Post by: robtmc on December 20, 2016, 08:26:53 PM
Why don't you just try to register a homemade firearm?Precious few have your skills, brah.
Post by: Kamalu on December 20, 2016, 08:58:11 PM
Post by: London808 on December 20, 2016, 09:33:01 PM
Post by: asinapple8805 on December 21, 2016, 08:45:03 AM
Thanks for the offer of pistols from people, Im not ignoring you im waiting to clarify a legal angel before proceeding.
London, i don't think law requires that you purchase the handgun prior to applying for a permit to acquire. also, a bill of sale is more of a "cover your ass" precaution and is generally a good practice, but it also is not required by law. all you need is someone that is willing to give you sufficient information about the firearm so that you can apply for a permit to acquire.
the permit to acquire does not evidence your right to own the handgun. technically you could apply for a permit to acquire, receive the permit, but never use that permit to actually take possession of the gun.
since you're basically doing this song and dance in order to establish your standing to bring a suit, it is almost irrelevant whether there is a purchase transaction involved.
Post by: mrgaf on December 21, 2016, 01:47:50 PM
Total time spent for the actual process was about 25 minutes. When I left, the place was empty but a couple of people were coming up the side by the elevator.... :shaka:
Post by: suka on December 21, 2016, 01:52:57 PM
Post by: mrgaf on December 21, 2016, 02:16:51 PM
SUE them
Already contributed to the lawsuit.... hopefully strength in numbers will prevail. Don't get me wrong, I hated having to go down there but, as previously mentioned, I already purchased a pistol and it was shipped the Friday before all this dung started. Would have been out a whole lot of cash. Besides I've got much more pressing problems with my grandson being diagnosed with precurser-B ALL and having to put down my female English cocker come Monday (15 years old). I do what I can when I can..... :(
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 21, 2016, 04:14:10 PM
:Crickets:
Of course it won't happen. So far, these guys just make changes to further take away our rights, never give.
I went and asked the firearms sergeant this question and got the explanation. He said that the waiting period is still in effect on each permit application. He went on to say that the HRA had a chance to give their input on the proposed law but the HRA just fought the whole law rather than having the rap back system eliminate the waiting period. He said he wished the waiting period had been eliminated.
I also asked whether an arrest takes a firearm or just a conviction and he explained that an arrest can cause the firearms to be taken, temporarily until your name is cleared by the prosecutor dropping the charges. This is the bigger kick in the pants. Because then you could be in limbo until the case is closed and the computer system is properly updated to read that there were no charges.
Post by: stangzilla on December 21, 2016, 04:23:05 PM
He said he wished the waiting period had been eliminated.
we all know this is total BS on HPD's behalf.
they can eliminate it if they want to. its not HRA's rules, its HPD's.
Post by: London808 on December 21, 2016, 04:44:52 PM
we all know this is total BS on HPD's behalf.
they can eliminate it if they want to. its not HRA's rules, its HPD's.
ITs not a rule/policy its state law, The law requires a 14 day waiting period on all permits, And there is no way no how that they would of removed the waiting period.
Post by: stangzilla on December 21, 2016, 05:01:59 PM
ITs not a rule/policy its state law, The law requires a 14 day waiting period on all permits, And there is no way no how that they would of removed the waiting period.
yes, I stand corrected.
they just want to make it as difficult as possible for firearms owners here to purchase and register their guns.
they want to infringe on our 2A, any way they can.
Post by: macsak on December 21, 2016, 05:15:26 PM
ITs not a rule/policy its state law, The law requires a 14 day waiting period on all permits, And there is no way no how that they would of removed the waiting period.
i thought the law says that the chief of police MAY impose a 14 day waiting period on each subsequent permit
Post by: London808 on December 21, 2016, 05:41:43 PM
i thought the law says that the chief of police MAY impose a 14 day waiting period on each subsequent permit
HRS 134.2 (e)
"no permit shall be issued to an applicant earlier than fourteen calendar days after the date of the application; provided that a permit shall be issued or the application denied before the twentieth day from the date of application."
They have to wait 14 days but can hold it as long as 20.
Post by: punaperson on December 21, 2016, 06:09:07 PM
...the firearms sergeant ... said that the waiting period is still in effect on each permit application. He went on to say that the HRA had a chance to give their input on the proposed law but the HRA just fought the whole law rather than having the rap back system eliminate the waiting period. He said he wished the waiting period had been eliminated.I suppose the sergeant had laryngitis at the hearings and both hands were in casts for the duration of the months the bill was before the legislature's various committees so that he was unable to express his preference until after it was all a done deal.
Post by: punaperson on December 21, 2016, 06:13:09 PM
yes, I stand corrected.Careful, stang, you're edging toward the bitter, cynical side of things. Or, as I refer to it: reality.
they just want to make it as difficult as possible for firearms owners here to purchase and register their guns.
they want to infringe on our 2A, any way they can.
Post by: z06psi on December 21, 2016, 10:11:46 PM
I went and asked the firearms sergeant this question and got the explanation. He said that the waiting period is still in effect on each permit application. He went on to say that the HRA had a chance to give their input on the proposed law but the HRA just fought the whole law rather than having the rap back system eliminate the waiting period. He said he wished the waiting period had been eliminated.
I also asked whether an arrest takes a firearm or just a conviction and he explained that an arrest can cause the firearms to be taken, temporarily until your name is cleared by the prosecutor dropping the charges. This is the bigger kick in the pants. Because then you could be in limbo until the case is closed and the computer system is properly updated to read that there were no charges.
Do you live in an alternative universe? This bill was proposed by Major Robinson. Will Espero took it up for him. This is the same Major Robinson that does not want you to have a gun at all but a really big dog.
Post by: Heavies on December 22, 2016, 12:48:48 AM
Post by: punaperson on December 22, 2016, 07:00:28 AM
Some HPD are pro gun, some are anti, some don't care one way or the other.. Same as most regular citizens.The record of HPD in the legislature of proposing and submitting testimony for firearms laws, and enforcing firearms laws, is strictly in line with the "anti" position. There may be some rank and file officers who oppose unconstitutional infringements of citizens' rights to keep and bear arms, but I see no record of them testifying or speaking out against the infringing bills and laws (on matters of principle, not "we don't have the money to do that")..
Post by: Heavies on December 22, 2016, 07:49:12 AM
The record of HPD in the legislature of proposing and submitting testimony for firearms laws, and enforcing firearms laws, is strictly in line with the "anti" position. There may be some rank and file officers who oppose unconstitutional infringements of citizens' rights to keep and bear arms, but I see no record of them testifying or speaking out against the infringing bills and laws (on matters of principle, not "we don't have the money to do that")..What you say is true. The "leadership" certainly do work with the legislature to come up with more infringement. Most likely to advance their careers through appeasing political agenda.
If we want change at HPD, in regards to gun rights, we first need to change the political landscape that appoints top positions in the leadership.
The only way to do that is to gain the favor of the public and culture. Our job is not to sway anti gun people to our side. I think someone else mentioned in another thread that trying to do that is futile and avoids it altogether, which is correct, IMHO. BETTER results will come by swaying those who "don't really care one way or the other". This is the majority, and where the power to change things lie.
Those that may be progun HPD must tread lightly while playing their stupid political games. As we all know, the left has a track record of retaliation against opposing views, and the obviously corrupt administration would have no problem making life very difficult or even removing those in opposition.
Post by: punaperson on December 22, 2016, 08:12:25 AM
BETTER results will come by swaying those who "don't really care one way or the other". This is the majority, and where the power to change things lie.How? Exactly.
Post by: Jl808 on December 22, 2016, 03:27:08 PM
If HPD wished for the waiting period to have been removed with crapback, they would have included it in the crapback bill they asked Espero to introduce.
Funny they blame HRA for it. What a frackin load of bull rap.
Post by: Jl808 on December 22, 2016, 03:39:37 PM
Post by: rklapp on December 23, 2016, 03:23:13 PM
Post by: whynow? on December 23, 2016, 06:13:08 PM
I don't buy it, EEF.That is the kind of cynical arrogance by a government entity that made people fed up to elect DJT, P.I's Duterte , choose Brexit and create the current political climate in Hungary, Italy and others. They still don't get it.
If HPD wished for the waiting period to have been removed with crapback, they would have included it in the crapback bill they asked Espero to introduce.
Funny they blame HRA for it. What a frackin load of bull rap.
They are civil servants not the overlords. When an organization has this kind of power and influence, it's time for people to break it up by creating another county on this island with it's own PD or real sheriff's department, mayor etc. Other than federal intervention somehow, that is the only way. That said, most of the rank and file are there to serve and protect.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 23, 2016, 08:52:43 PM
Do you live in an alternative universe? This bill was proposed by Major Robinson. Will Espero took it up for him. This is the same Major Robinson that does not want you to have a gun at all but a really big dog.
Unless I missed something, Major Robinson doesn't man the window. I talked to the set and am telling you what HE said. I am not going to participate in conjecture of ulterior motives or lies on his part. I see no benefit in being overly pessimistic and should look for allies not opponents, we already have enough opponents.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 23, 2016, 08:56:41 PM
I don't buy it, EEF.
If HPD wished for the waiting period to have been removed with crapback, they would have included it in the crapback bill they asked Espero to introduce.
Funny they blame HRA for it. What a frackin load of bull rap.
I don't think the sergeant was speaking for the department when he made that comment but what he would have liked to seen done. I took it as him saying he wished the HRA had participated in the issue so at least they could have input some good ideas, like eliminating the 14 day waiting period. I doubt a lowly sergeant had any input in the final version of the law.
In a way I can see how this is sort of a difficult position. Consider that if the firearms division didn't deny a permit to an individual and then the individual went and killed someone, HPD would be the first to get sued. They have to walk the balance between making sure rights aren't denied too much and making sure they are denied when justified. Unfortunately there are people who should be denied firearms and it is their job to try and pick them out. I can sympathize with that difficult task and understand why they would see rap back as a good tool to do their job more effectively.
Post by: punaperson on December 23, 2016, 09:30:54 PM
...they would see rap back as a good tool to do their job more effectively.Gee, I wonder how long the list is of unconstitutional tyrannical rights-denying laws they (would) find to be "good tool(s) to do their job more effectively". What "job" is it they have that warrants them denying the right to lawfully "bear arms" (which according to the constitutions may not be infringed) outside the home for self-defense to every single law-abiding citizen of Hawaii?
Post by: ren on December 23, 2016, 09:34:17 PM
In a way I can see how this is sort of a difficult position. Consider that if the firearms division didn't deny a permit to an individual and then the individual went and killed someone, HPD would be the first to get sued. They have to walk the balance between making sure rights aren't denied too much and making sure they are denied when justified. Unfortunately there are people who should be denied firearms and it is their job to try and pick them out. I can sympathize with that difficult task and understand why they would see rap back as a good tool to do their job more effectively.
we can go down that rabbit hole.
What if HPD stops a person for speeding but lets him/her go on a warning. That same person mows down a crowd in the name of Allah.
Post by: oldfart on December 23, 2016, 10:18:44 PM
....
In a way I can see how this is sort of a difficult position. Consider that if the firearms division didn't deny a permit to an individual and then the individual went and killed someone,
Hmmmm...
So HPD is supposed to be like the Pre-Crime Unit in "Minority Report"?
Post by: ren on December 23, 2016, 10:27:13 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on December 23, 2016, 11:06:16 PM
I don't think the sergeant was speaking for the department when he made that comment but what he would have liked to seen done. I took it as him saying he wished the HRA had participated in the issue so at least they could have input some good ideas, like eliminating the 14 day waiting period. I doubt a lowly sergeant had any input in the final version of the law.
In a way I can see how this is sort of a difficult position. Consider that if the firearms division didn't deny a permit to an individual and then the individual went and killed someone, HPD would be the first to get sued. They have to walk the balance between making sure rights aren't denied too much and making sure they are denied when justified. Unfortunately there are people who should be denied firearms and it is their job to try and pick them out. I can sympathize with that difficult task and understand why they would see rap back as a good tool to do their job more effectively.
Consider that if the firearms division
Post by: Heavies on December 23, 2016, 11:12:05 PM
That's the same lame excuse they used to reason not selling old service pistols to the public or even their own officers.
Once it is out of their review, they have no liability in the matter.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 24, 2016, 12:41:55 AM
HPD cannot be sued in such a case. Just as they can't be sued by denying CCW permits and that unarmed person is killed or injured because they are defenseless.
That's the same lame excuse they used to reason not selling old service pistols to the public or even their own officers.
Once it is out of their review, they have no liability in the matter.
How do you suppose? HPD can be sued for anything. The plaintiff might not have a good case but he can still bring suit and it will still cost the department and therefore us money. Police are always worried about getting sued.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 24, 2016, 12:46:34 AM
Consider that if the firearms divisiondidn't denydenies a permit to an individual and then the individual went and got killed by someone because the individual was defenseless. HPD would be thefirstlast to get sued.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) there were no cases in which that happened. I mean, of course I don't want anyone to be killed or seriously hurt but it did happen it would be something that we could take to lawmakers and HPD and the media to help make out point.
My point here is not to debate the legality but to see the thin line they have to balance on.
Post by: punaperson on December 24, 2016, 11:16:11 AM
Consider that if the firearms divisionHere's my revision/version:didn't denydenies a permit to an individual and then the individual went and got killed by someone because the individual was defenseless. HPD would be thefirstlast to get sued.
Consider that if the firearms division
For those who claim "HPD can be sued for anything." and "Police are always worried about getting sued.", please tell us what negative consequences any member of the Washington, D.C. police force experienced after their policy of "no issue" was ruled unconstitutional and overturned. And why you believe that the "no consequences" result there would be any different here.
Post by: punaperson on December 24, 2016, 11:27:26 AM
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) there were no cases in which that happened.
Please cite your source for that claimed fact.
I mean, of course I don't want anyone to be killed or seriously hurt but it did happen it would be something that we could take to lawmakers and HPD and the media to help make out point.
I'd be willing to wager a fairly large sum that if tomorrow, on Christmas Day, every single person in the state who applied for a CCW license in 2016 was murdered as they took one step off their private property into "public space" that not one single difference in law or the applied interpretation of the law as it stands would be enacted.
My point here is not to debate the legality but to see the thin line they have to balance on.
Yeah? What's the "thin line"? Constitutional or unconstitutional? "Public servant" or "fascist enforcer of civilian disarmament"? You didn't respond to my question above. Why not? I'll repeat it for you, maybe you "forgot": What "job" is it they have that warrants them denying the right to lawfully "bear arms" (which according to the constitutions may not be infringed) outside the home for self-defense to every single law-abiding citizen of Hawaii?
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 24, 2016, 09:21:41 PM
Here's my revision/version:
Consider that if the firearms divisiondidn't denydenies a permit to an individual and then the individualwent and got killed by someonewas victimized by a criminal in any way because the individual was defenseless, HPD couldn'tbe thefirstlast to get suedcare less because they are virtually immune from any negative consequences for their decision to uniformly ban any law-abiding Hawaii citizen from exercising their constitutionally-guaranteed right to bear arms outside the home for self-defense.
For those who claim "HPD can be sued for anything." and "Police are always worried about getting sued.", please tell us what negative consequences any member of the Washington, D.C. police force experienced after their policy of "no issue" was ruled unconstitutional and overturned. And why you believe that the "no consequences" result there would be any different here.
How do you come to the conclusion that police are immune? They sure aren't immune from other lawsuits.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 24, 2016, 09:29:24 PM
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) there were no cases in which that happened.
Please cite your source for that claimed fact.
I mean, of course I don't want anyone to be killed or seriously hurt but it did happen it would be something that we could take to lawmakers and HPD and the media to help make out point.
I'd be willing to wager a fairly large sum that if tomorrow, on Christmas Day, every single person in the state who applied for a CCW license in 2016 was murdered as they took one step off their private property into "public space" that not one single difference in law or the applied interpretation of the law as it stands would be enacted.
My point here is not to debate the legality but to see the thin line they have to balance on.
Yeah? What's the "thin line"? Constitutional or unconstitutional? "Public servant" or "fascist enforcer of civilian disarmament"? You didn't respond to my question above. Why not? I'll repeat it for you, maybe you "forgot": What "job" is it they have that warrants them denying the right to lawfully "bear arms" (which according to the constitutions may not be infringed) outside the home for self-defense to every single law-abiding citizen of Hawaii?
Let me rephrase, I am not aware of any such cases. Are you aware of any cases where someone who was denied a CCW got killed or seriously injured?
The thin line is the line between making the right call and making the wrong call, denying someone's civil rights or not.
You wanna make the constitutional argument? Go ahead, I support that but as far as HPD is concerned, they are following state law and case precedent so your unconstitutional argument doesn't convince anyone but us.
What job is it? It is their job as issuer of permits.
Post by: ren on December 24, 2016, 11:35:25 PM
Let me rephrase, I am not aware of any such cases. Are you aware of any cases where someone who was denied a CCW got killed or seriously injured?
"awaiting" for her permit then was killed http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10/no-one-helped-her-nj-woman-murdered-by-ex-while-waiting-for-gun-permit.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10/no-one-helped-her-nj-woman-murdered-by-ex-while-waiting-for-gun-permit.html)
and we know what happened to Dr. Martin Luther King
http://bulletsfirst.net/2014/01/20/racist-gun-control-laws-denied-martin-luther-king-jr-right-defend/ (http://bulletsfirst.net/2014/01/20/racist-gun-control-laws-denied-martin-luther-king-jr-right-defend/)
Post by: Heavies on December 25, 2016, 05:42:49 AM
Post by: changemyoil66 on December 25, 2016, 07:24:56 AM
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Post by: punaperson on December 25, 2016, 07:56:46 AM
How do you come to the conclusion that police are immune? They sure aren't immune from other lawsuits.I didn't claim they were immune from lawsuits. My whole point, clearly stated, which you ignore again and again, is that they are immune from any consequences of any lawsuit, even if the lawsuit is successful. I gave you the example of the Washington, D.C. PD having no consequences after their policy was ruled unconstitutional as an example and you failed to respond.
Let's take an example of a successful public lawsuit against HPD. So some cop (a friend of yours?) roughs up some lesbians in a public store because they are kissing and apparently he thinks he can justify threatening them because of his astute legal knowledge of the anti-lesbian-kissing-in-public section of HRS. They sue. They win a pile of money. What negative consequence ensued for any member of HPD? That's right, not one single fucking thing. The cop himself, oh, he "retired". What a coincidence. Did any public body hold a hearing to determine if the now-retired cop should face any consequences of any sort, including rescinding part or all of his pension? We all know the answer: NO! All that happened is some taxpayer money was transferred to some people who had been subjected to some asshole rogue cop bullying women. I wonder if they even bothered to notify all officers via some communication: "Uh, people kissing in public is NOT a crime. Do NOT threaten to arrest them. Do NOT throw them to the ground. Carry on." So, please tell us, what were the consequences of that lawsuit that any member of HPD had to fear?
Post by: punaperson on December 25, 2016, 08:37:27 AM
Let me rephrase, I am not aware of any such cases.
I see, you can claim to state a fact, used as a premise in an argument, but once you are called on it and asked to provide evidence for claimed fact then you backtrack and tell us that that was only your made up opinion based on nothing at all except your "awareness". We all know from reading many of your posts that you are not aware of a lot of things, so please in the future do not claim as facts shit that you just make up.
Are you aware of any cases where someone who was denied a CCW got killed or seriously injured?
1. How would anyone know if someone who got "killed or seriously injured" was denied a CCW? The case of Carol Bowne, referred to above, was only known publicly because her family was outraged and went public. Oh, and what were the consequences for the cops that denied her her permit? That's right: zero.
2. Why should the criteria be "killed or seriously injured"? How about "victim of a crime which may have been prevented or minimized had the victim be armed"? Please justify your criteria of "killed or seriously injured". Go ahead, "rephrase it".
3.You are a minor step away from the actual policy of the Hawaii police chiefs wherein a person has to PROVE a high probability of likely crime victimization that could ONLY be prevented by carrying a firearm outside their home (yeah, that's right, people have been told to "move" rather than be given a CCW license as a solution to a documented threat [admitted anecdote: the cops did not admit to this claim of a denied licensee when asked, so it is only her word... the cops didn't put that in writing, it was an oral communication]).
4. There is no point in making the criteria for "a wrong" in Hawaii "denied a CCW" because everyone knows there is no point in applying because no one ever is granted one (unless you "just happen" to be a judge), so it's just a waste of time and money. The criteria should at least be "victim of a crime who would have carried a weapon had it been possible to carry one legally".
The thin line is the line between making the right call and making the wrong call, denying someone's civil rights or not.
Uh huh. And you're claiming that every single person in Hawaii who has applied for a CCW license, and been denied the right to "bear arms" has been the "right call" by the cops and no one has been denied their "civil rights"? Denying someone their civil rights is ALWAYS the "wrong call". Yet, that is what they do. And they do it with impunity.
You wanna make the constitutional argument? Go ahead, I support that but as far as HPD is concerned, they are following state law and case precedent so your unconstitutional argument doesn't convince anyone but us.
No, they are not "following state law". They are interpreting state law a particular way, arbitrarily and capriciously, at their whim and pleasure. Thus they can interpret state law one way and issue a judge a CCW license because, well, "judge", and not issue a CCW license to anyone else because, well, "fuck you, you serf, who the fuck do you think you are". And yes, the fact that there are a majority of Hawaii judges and Ninth Circuit judges who happen to be fascist civilian-disarmament advocates who mendaciously produce "precedents" which justify "regulations" that are de facto "bans" is a difficult to overcome problem.
What job is it? It is their job as issuer of permits.
I believe a more accurate term is "NONissuer of permits", or even more accurately "elite fascist bullies enforcing "laws" in whatever way we arbitrarily choose".
Post by: ren on December 25, 2016, 11:27:09 AM
Post by: London808 on December 25, 2016, 11:43:59 AM
Waiting periods are constitutional : sylvester vs harris
You dont have the right to carry outside your home : Peruta v. County of San Diego
Operating within the law gives the police immunity.
:stopjack:
Post by: punaperson on December 25, 2016, 12:55:37 PM
You dont have the right to carry outside your home : Peruta v. County of San DiegoPeruta v. County of San Diego: You don't have a Constitutional right to carry concealed outside your home.
Post by: z06psi on December 25, 2016, 04:23:47 PM
Post by: punaperson on December 25, 2016, 09:36:57 PM
I hate to say this to y'all but I cannot wait to move back to GA in 16 months.Who wouldn't want to move from Hawaii to the United States of America?
Post by: z06psi on December 25, 2016, 10:00:18 PM
Who wouldn't want to move from Hawaii to the United States of America?
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Post by: aieahound on December 26, 2016, 02:09:21 AM
Who wouldn't want to move from Hawaii to the United States of America?
Me.
Post by: Inspector on December 26, 2016, 06:21:43 AM
Arizona and Utah actually has some attraction for me due to the gun situation and Ohana. I will not go back to Kalifornia under any condition even though most of my Ohana is there.
Post by: z06psi on December 26, 2016, 06:50:55 AM
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Post by: punaperson on December 26, 2016, 06:58:50 AM
When you can get 34 acres for 120k and the state government leaves you alone it's a no brainer.Just out of curiosity, what sort of real estate can be purchased on Oahu for $120k? [Where's the coffee spitting emoticon?] Dave? Does any of that Oahu real estate come with a "government-mostly-leaves-you-alone" provision? :stopjack:
Post by: punaperson on December 26, 2016, 07:22:47 AM
You dont have the right to carry outside your home : Peruta v. County of San DiegoPeruta v. County of San Diego: You don't have a Constitutional right to carry concealed outside your home.
I should have more correctly written: Peruta v. County of San Diego: You don't have a Constitutionally-guaranteed right to carry concealed outside your home.
I think everyone here knows that our rights pre-exist the Constitution(s) and any government, and are NOT created nor granted by them, as has been ruled by the SCOTUS. The Bill of Rights merely confirms certain rights and that government may not infringe them.
Post by: Inspector on December 26, 2016, 07:34:25 AM
Just out of curiosity, what sort of real estate can be purchased on Oahu for $120k? [Where's the coffee spitting emoticon?] Dave? Does any of that Oahu real estate come with a "government-mostly-leaves-you-alone" provision? :stopjack:Was this question for me? You quoted z06psi so I am a little confused.
Post by: whynow? on December 26, 2016, 07:47:17 AM
Before my wife passed on, I thought about moving to the Cedar City or St. George area of UT. Now, I will live and die here no matter what the state throws at us in the form of violating our 2A civil rights which I will defend. Although my spirit will be with my Lord and Savior and my wife, my remains will be interred with hers. I pray that our new federal government will severely punish states and cities that violate any 2A rights including games to make honest citizens jump through hoops like animals to exercise their individual rights, before it gets out of hand.
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Post by: punaperson on December 26, 2016, 08:14:33 AM
Was this question for me? You quoted z06psi so I am a little confused.Well, it was to anyone really, but since you self-identify as a real estate agent I thought you might have accurate information immediately available.
So, what can a person get on Oahu for $120k? I mean real estate-wise... :shaka:
Post by: dogman on December 26, 2016, 08:20:10 AM
Well, it was to anyone really, but since you self-identify as a real estate agent I thought you might have accurate information immediately available.A parking stall?
So, what can a person get on Oahu for $120k? I mean real estate-wise... :shaka:
Post by: Inspector on December 26, 2016, 08:28:52 AM
Well, it was to anyone really, but since you self-identify as a real estate agent I thought you might have accurate information immediately available.So your question was pretty open ended...
So, what can a person get on Oahu for $120k? I mean real estate-wise... :shaka:
About the only thing you can get on Oahu for that sort of money is leasehold land. Probably a co-op of some sort and you could probably get in on the high side of a 99 year lease. If you intend not to sell while you are alive and build a home on the land and don't care about getting any value out of it after you pass then you can get 1+ acres around Waipahu. I think I remember there may be some 10+ acres lots. But again, this is from memory. If you are looking for more value then look on the Big Island.
Post by: ren on December 26, 2016, 10:37:46 AM
Is that true?
Post by: z06psi on December 26, 2016, 10:44:15 AM
Just too expensive here and restrictive.
Post by: punaperson on December 26, 2016, 11:28:35 AM
34 acres, wooded, on a 119K acre lake. Long enough for a 500yd gun range all for my personal use. Think Hickok45 but 500yds long.At least Hawaii is #1 in something... something "bad". Let's see, cost of living: 1. Hawaii, 2. California, 3. New York, 4. Connecticut, 6. Massachusetts, 7. Maryland. Most restrictive gun control/civilian disarmament laws: 1. California, 2. Connecticut, 4. Maryland, 5. New York, 6. Massachusetts, 7. Hawaii. I'm just sayin'...
Just too expensive here and restrictive.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/see-how-your-state-scores-for-living-costs/ss-AAlEaoG?li=BBnbfcN#image=1
See how your state scores for living costs
Every US state, ranked
The difference in the cost of living between the cheapest and most expensive states is massive – you could easily pay twice as much to live in some states, and over three times as much on housing. Using the latest 2016 Cost of Living data from the Missouri Economic Research and Information Center, we’ve listed every state from the cheapest to the most expensive, weighted on factors such as housing, grocery cost, transportation, healthcare, and utilities. The average state is weighted 100.
1. Hawaii – 167.3
If you aspired to move from California out to sunshine paradise, you’ll have to be happy with a hut. If you want a house instead, be prepared to fork out as the average price is $982,312 and its housing index is a whopping 230.5, which is the highest of all the states. Utilities? 208.4. Groceries? 154.3. In fact, every single index is much higher than the 100-point average. There is a reason Hawaii is a holiday destination.
:stopjack:
So... who else is buying or not buying firearms in light of mandatory RapBack enrollment? :geekdanc:
Post by: flaboy808 on December 26, 2016, 07:54:43 PM
Me.
Post by: rklapp on December 27, 2016, 08:02:47 AM
http://www.clickhole.com/article/embarrassing-us-ranked-182nd-world-alphabetically-1855
At least Hawaii is #1 in something... something "bad". Let's see, cost of living: 1. Hawaii, 2. California, 3. New York, 4. Connecticut, 6. Massachusetts, 7. Maryland. Most restrictive gun control/civilian disarmament laws: 1. California, 2. Connecticut, 4. Maryland, 5. New York, 6. Massachusetts, 7. Hawaii. I'm just sayin'...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/see-how-your-state-scores-for-living-costs/ss-AAlEaoG?li=BBnbfcN#image=1
See how your state scores for living costs
Every US state, ranked
The difference in the cost of living between the cheapest and most expensive states is massive – you could easily pay twice as much to live in some states, and over three times as much on housing. Using the latest 2016 Cost of Living data from the Missouri Economic Research and Information Center, we’ve listed every state from the cheapest to the most expensive, weighted on factors such as housing, grocery cost, transportation, healthcare, and utilities. The average state is weighted 100.
1. Hawaii – 167.3
If you aspired to move from California out to sunshine paradise, you’ll have to be happy with a hut. If you want a house instead, be prepared to fork out as the average price is $982,312 and its housing index is a whopping 230.5, which is the highest of all the states. Utilities? 208.4. Groceries? 154.3. In fact, every single index is much higher than the 100-point average. There is a reason Hawaii is a holiday destination.
:stopjack:
So... who else is buying or not buying firearms in light of mandatory RapBack enrollment? :geekdanc:
Post by: changemyoil66 on December 27, 2016, 08:24:23 AM
Why:
1) Cost of living is higher
2) Gun laws suck
3) Cost of living is higher
My friend moved to vegas. He bought a 5000 sq/ft home for $320K brand new in a gated community. His wife doesn't have to work and his new job only pays him a little more. Where as over here they had a 2500 sq'ft home that cost them $600K. They both had to work.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 27, 2016, 04:04:06 PM
"awaiting" for her permit then was killed http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10/no-one-helped-her-nj-woman-murdered-by-ex-while-waiting-for-gun-permit.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10/no-one-helped-her-nj-woman-murdered-by-ex-while-waiting-for-gun-permit.html)
and we know what happened to Dr. Martin Luther King
http://bulletsfirst.net/2014/01/20/racist-gun-control-laws-denied-martin-luther-king-jr-right-defend/ (http://bulletsfirst.net/2014/01/20/racist-gun-control-laws-denied-martin-luther-king-jr-right-defend/)
Thank you but I was looking for a Hawaii case since it could then directly serve to show HPD screwed up.
King did get denied for a permit but he later decided he didn't want guns given his stance in the non violent movement.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/martin-luther-king-had-complicated-legacy-gun-violence-162613323.html?ref=gs
Post by: eyeeatingfish on December 27, 2016, 04:18:05 PM
I see, you can claim to state a fact, used as a premise in an argument, but once you are called on it and asked to provide evidence for claimed fact then you backtrack and tell us that that was only your made up opinion based on nothing at all except your "awareness". We all know from reading many of your posts that you are not aware of a lot of things, so please in the future do not claim as facts shit that you just make up.
If we are to use an actual incident as a basis to sue HPD then we need to know of one. We cannot make the argument that they cannot prove there isn't one. This is a debate basic, you are required to prove your point, not make someone else prove a negative. You complain about an inaccuracy in my statement and then complain when I correct it. It is apparent you don't really care and are just intent on attacking me whichever way you can.
Quote
1. How would anyone know if someone who got "killed or seriously injured" was denied a CCW? The case of Carol Bowne, referred to above, was only known publicly because her family was outraged and went public. Oh, and what were the consequences for the cops that denied her her permit? That's right: zero.
2. Why should the criteria be "killed or seriously injured"? How about "victim of a crime which may have been prevented or minimized had the victim be armed"? Please justify your criteria of "killed or seriously injured". Go ahead, "rephrase it".
3.You are a minor step away from the actual policy of the Hawaii police chiefs wherein a person has to PROVE a high probability of likely crime victimization that could ONLY be prevented by carrying a firearm outside their home (yeah, that's right, people have been told to "move" rather than be given a CCW license as a solution to a documented threat [admitted anecdote: the cops did not admit to this claim of a denied licensee when asked, so it is only her word... the cops didn't put that in writing, it was an oral communication]).
4. There is no point in making the criteria for "a wrong" in Hawaii "denied a CCW" because everyone knows there is no point in applying because no one ever is granted one (unless you "just happen" to be a judge), so it's just a waste of time and money. The criteria should at least be "victim of a crime who would have carried a weapon had it been possible to carry one legally".
These would be necessary facts in a lawsuit against HPD. Do you want to fight for your rights or not? You don't just go into court making a philosophical argument. Sure, even a substantial bodily injury or armed robbery case would work. Stop making up straw men.
Quote
Uh huh. And you're claiming that every single person in Hawaii who has applied for a CCW license, and been denied the right to "bear arms" has been the "right call" by the cops and no one has been denied their "civil rights"? Denying someone their civil rights is ALWAYS the "wrong call". Yet, that is what they do. And they do it with impunity.
No, they are not "following state law". They are interpreting state law a particular way, arbitrarily and capriciously, at their whim and pleasure. Thus they can interpret state law one way and issue a judge a CCW license because, well, "judge", and not issue a CCW license to anyone else because, well, "fuck you, you serf, who the fuck do you think you are". And yes, the fact that there are a majority of Hawaii judges and Ninth Circuit judges who happen to be fascist civilian-disarmament advocates who mendaciously produce "precedents" which justify "regulations" that are de facto "bans" is a difficult to overcome problem.
Hawaii state law says may issue which allows them to deny any and all CCW permits they want, that is why they act with impunity. We need to challenge them on it any way we can.
Post by: TastesLikeMetal on December 30, 2016, 09:50:58 PM
Post by: Heavies on December 30, 2016, 10:14:16 PM
Not sure if this was brought up already but when I renew my Long Gun permit in February will I be entered into Rapback or is that just for new firearm purchases?On renewal they will charge you for the privilege and enter you into the database to be monitored.
Post by: London808 on December 30, 2016, 10:14:53 PM
Not sure if this was brought up already but when I renew my Long Gun permit in February will I be entered into Rapback or is that just for new firearm purchases?
If you choose to sign the release form you will be entered into rapback.
To many npeople are willing to sign away their rights to exercise others.
Post by: aieahound on January 03, 2017, 12:22:37 PM
Some great deals no one (including myself) is jumping on.
Post by: z06psi on January 03, 2017, 08:27:12 PM
Could be everyone is broke from Christmas, but Classified sales seem to have slowed since Rapback went into effect.
Some great deals no one (including myself) is jumping on.
Yup. There have been a couple things I would have bought but nope.
Post by: suka on January 03, 2017, 10:37:03 PM
shipping it out of State for now.
Post by: MMM on January 09, 2017, 11:47:52 AM
Post by: zippz on January 09, 2017, 12:00:37 PM
i was part of the, "not buying any more firearms till RapBack crap is done" crowd. until, i sent a revolver back to Smith&Wesson for warranty and they're sending me a new revolver(yay!) because, i guess, the old one was not serviceable. so the dilemma is; i get a new revolver with a new serial number and have to register into rap back! :( ;) got mixed feelings about this one.
Try explaining it to S&W to see if you can get a revolver with the same serial #. Some gun manufacturers do that.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on January 09, 2017, 12:32:09 PM
i was part of the, "not buying any more firearms till RapBack crap is done" crowd. until, i sent a revolver back to Smith&Wesson for warranty and they're sending me a new revolver(yay!) because, i guess, the old one was not serviceable. so the dilemma is; i get a new revolver with a new serial number and have to register into rap back! :( ;) got mixed feelings about this one.
If you have the pistol sent to a local FFL, you could ask they hold it until the RapBack situation settles down. Depends on how long you're willing to be without it.
Post by: rklapp on January 09, 2017, 02:22:30 PM
i was part of the, "not buying any more firearms till RapBack crap is done" crowd. until, i sent a revolver back to Smith&Wesson for warranty and they're sending me a new revolver(yay!) because, i guess, the old one was not serviceable. so the dilemma is; i get a new revolver with a new serial number and have to register into rap back! :( ;) got mixed feelings about this one.
Post by: Turbo-Mag on January 10, 2017, 10:00:58 AM
I am not aware of any such cases. Are you aware of any cases where someone who was denied a CCW got killed or seriously injured?
Sorry...a little off-topic...Lately it seems more people are having a short fuse and for the silliest reasons are rather ugly and threatening. I don't care for people who make Hawaii or anyplace ugly.
If I see someone just outright throw trash on the ground...I tell them "that's not nice" and pick it up form them to throw away...well the last one I did nearly got my azz kicked...
For the CCW and someone getting killed or seriously hurt...Well there is always a first...I hope not to be that...but I will be applying for a CCW...I was assaulted and have a assault case
still pending. At the time I was still recovering from 5 surgeries, well my 5'-4" / 115lbs was nothing to his 6' / 250lbs...I was just tossed around like a rag doll. It has been two years and still
nothing is happening. I had a TRO against the person right after it happened but since he did not show up in court it was only given for 90 days...what a joke the system is...
and it was not his first as he has a record of TRO's for violence. Well last month I found out he still has a lot of hate toward me and my mother.
Will a pending case be cause for them to take away my firearms? Granted I only got my firearms in November? Or will it negatively affect me?
Post by: changemyoil66 on January 10, 2017, 10:11:21 AM
Sorry...a little off-topic...Lately it seems more people are having a short fuse and for the silliest reasons are rather ugly and threatening. I don't care for people who make Hawaii or anyplace ugly.
If I see someone just outright throw trash on the ground...I tell them "that's not nice" and pick it up form them to throw away...well the last one I did nearly got my azz kicked...
For the CCW and someone getting killed or seriously hurt...Well there is always a first...I hope not to be that...but I will be applying for a CCW...I was assaulted and have a assault case
still pending. At the time I was still recovering from 5 surgeries, well my 5'-4" / 115lbs was nothing to his 6' / 250lbs...I was just tossed around like a rag doll. It has been two years and still
nothing is happening. I had a TRO against the person right after it happened but since he did not show up in court it was only given for 90 days...what a joke the system is...
and it was not his first as he has a record of TRO's for violence. Well last month I found out he still has a lot of hate toward me and my mother.
Will a pending case be cause for them to take away my firearms? Granted I only got my firearms in November? Or will it negatively affect me?
Good luck on the CCW, they still gonna deny you.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on January 11, 2017, 05:02:12 PM
Sorry...a little off-topic...Lately it seems more people are having a short fuse and for the silliest reasons are rather ugly and threatening. I don't care for people who make Hawaii or anyplace ugly.
If I see someone just outright throw trash on the ground...I tell them "that's not nice" and pick it up form them to throw away...well the last one I did nearly got my azz kicked...
For the CCW and someone getting killed or seriously hurt...Well there is always a first...I hope not to be that...but I will be applying for a CCW...I was assaulted and have a assault case
still pending. At the time I was still recovering from 5 surgeries, well my 5'-4" / 115lbs was nothing to his 6' / 250lbs...I was just tossed around like a rag doll. It has been two years and still
nothing is happening. I had a TRO against the person right after it happened but since he did not show up in court it was only given for 90 days...what a joke the system is...
and it was not his first as he has a record of TRO's for violence. Well last month I found out he still has a lot of hate toward me and my mother.
Will a pending case be cause for them to take away my firearms? Granted I only got my firearms in November? Or will it negatively affect me?
A case with you as the victim should not affect your firearm ownership.
Sounds like you have as good an argument as any for CCW. They may tell you to get another TRO first. Let us know what happens. I sure hope you are not the one to be the first case but not applying isn't going to make any difference for you.
Post by: pudgster on January 12, 2017, 10:47:08 PM
Post by: Zaytsev2013 on January 18, 2017, 03:00:01 PM
Post by: eyeeatingfish on January 19, 2017, 09:06:38 PM
so one of the reasons rapback was proposed was to discourage people from purchasing firearms... im a bit embarassed to say it's prevented me from jumping on a few deals in the 2a classifieds recently... :'(
I don't think that was the intent but I am sure some are happy at the side effect. I have heard there is a loophole to taking your name out of the system so I am tempted to go ahead and get put and see if the loophole works.
Post by: macsak on January 19, 2017, 09:47:05 PM
I don't think that was the intent but I am sure some are happy at the side effect. I have heard there is a loophole to taking your name out of the system so I am tempted to go ahead and get put and see if the loophole works.
You're already in...
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Post by: eyeeatingfish on January 23, 2017, 09:29:54 AM
You're already in...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Haven't purchased or registered any firearms since rap back so......
Post by: macsak on January 23, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Haven't purchased or registered any firearms since rap back so......
...
Post by: yurcarmeean on January 25, 2017, 06:20:05 PM
2. if so, is there ay sign rapback might be repealed?
Post by: London808 on January 25, 2017, 06:37:29 PM
1. is rapback in effect right now? my friend didn't have to pay the fee when he went to register, on Maui though.
2. if so, is there ay sign rapback might be repealed?
When did he go ?
It wont get repealed because gun owners in Hawaii are LAZY, i am however working on getting it declared illegal/unconstitutional, Spent an hour on the phone today with Alan (Lawyer) talking about various avenues to take.
Post by: haynplumma on January 25, 2017, 07:01:04 PM
When did he go ?Thank you for all your hard work
It wont get repealed because gun owners in Hawaii are LAZY, i am however working on getting it declared illegal/unconstitutional, Spent an hour on the phone today with Alan (Lawyer) talking about various avenues to take.
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Post by: bass monkey on January 26, 2017, 06:52:55 PM
Post by: aieahound on January 26, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
For that set up jump into Rapback with both feet.
Post by: yurcarmeean on January 26, 2017, 08:31:44 PM
When did he go ?1. Went week of 1/16/17
2. That's a shame 😣
Post by: London808 on January 26, 2017, 08:44:33 PM
1. Went week of 1/16/17
2. That's a shame 😣
He must of paid when he did his permit then. The fee is mandated by law and is not collected for the PD but by the PD for the HCJDC
Post by: aieahound on January 27, 2017, 01:18:44 PM
Classifieds
5" Ruger GP100 with speed loaders for $550 almost made me jump in. :crazy:
Thank goodness someone bought it.
Post by: Bushido on February 09, 2017, 06:33:58 PM
Post by: Heavies on February 09, 2017, 08:12:57 PM
I apoligize if it was already posted but is there a way to find out if I may already be on Rap Back? Long story short, I'm a coach and I've had to pass several background checks over the years to do so. I have never paid a fee but I'd assume the organization/league would've paid the fee. I did have to provide quite a bit of personal info.IMHO, It doesn't matter if you are in rap back yet or not. You must sign over and relinquish your rights just because of the fact you are a gun owner. If you think that is OK then go ahead.
We have a constitution that is supposed to protect United States citizens from unreasonable infringements of our rights. This state, which is supposed to be a part of that union, more and more, chips and hacks away at those constitutional guarantees.
Up to you if you want to empower that.
Post by: Bushido on February 10, 2017, 09:42:40 PM
IMHO, It doesn't matter if you are in rap back yet or not. You must sign over and relinquish your rights just because of the fact you are a gun owner. If you think that is OK then go ahead.
We have a constitution that is supposed to protect United States citizens from unreasonable infringements of our rights. This state, which is supposed to be a part of that union, more and more, chips and hacks away at those constitutional guarantees.
Up to you if you want to empower that.
Well I have avoided purchasing a couple of "wants" because of Rap Back. I'm not going to voluntarily put myself on that list. On the other hand, if I was put on that list because of my coaching duties, why shouldn't I buy what I want.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on February 11, 2017, 01:01:15 PM
Well I have avoided purchasing a couple of "wants" because of Rap Back. I'm not going to voluntarily put myself on that list. On the other hand, if I was put on that list because of my coaching duties, why shouldn't I buy what I want.
Who is the RAPBACK subscriber for the coaching job? DOE?
For firearm registrations, it's HPD. WHO is being notified could make all the difference between simply losing a job and having all your guns confiscated.
Post by: London808 on February 11, 2017, 01:35:22 PM
Who is the RAPBACK subscriber for the coaching job? DOE?
For firearm registrations, it's HPD. WHO is being notified could make all the difference between simply losing a job and having all your guns confiscated.
Worse then that, The tag for work would be employment, the tag for guns would be firearms, Its makes it a federally controlled firearms database.
Post by: drck1000 on February 11, 2017, 03:30:18 PM
Who is the RAPBACK subscriber for the coaching job? DOE?That was my understanding of the case of RapBack for firearms. Who gets notified and for what reason. It depends on the organization, office, etc that requests info. To the Hawaii justice-whatever gets notified of people they request info for if something that they define as a flag, say ANY arrest, and pertaining to you being a firearm owner.
For firearm registrations, it's HPD. WHO is being notified could make all the difference between simply losing a job and having all your guns confiscated.
As part of my work, I have gone through FBI and other background checks. It is my understanding that they would get notified of certain things, but not necessarily arrests. That is one (of the many) messed up things about how RapBack is being implemented in Hawaii.
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Post by: Bushido on February 11, 2017, 08:12:15 PM
Who is the RAPBACK subscriber for the coaching job? DOE?
No it is not DOE. I do coach high school players but not during their official school sanctioned season. The one organization that I was concerned about was a "club" league.
Post by: London808 on February 11, 2017, 08:53:30 PM
No it is not DOE. I do coach high school players but not during their official school sanctioned season. The one organization that I was concerned about was a "club" league.
There is a very paticular list of who has access to rapback, they may be able to do an FBI big check but it's unlikely you would be in rapback for them
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on February 12, 2017, 01:11:53 AM
There is a very paticular list of who has access to rapback, they may be able to do an FBI big check but it's unlikely you would be in rapback for them
I thought any organization can (1) register you and (2) subscribe to receive notifications if they are willing to pay both fees. LE and other state agencies can subscribe for notices and not be charged the subscription fee.
Maybe non-state agencies have to subscribe directly to the FBI, whereas only the state is allowed to subscribe via the CJDC?
Post by: eyeeatingfish on February 12, 2017, 02:20:17 AM
Well I have avoided purchasing a couple of "wants" because of Rap Back. I'm not going to voluntarily put myself on that list. On the other hand, if I was put on that list because of my coaching duties, why shouldn't I buy what I want.
I don't like it either but I decided to go ahead and buy a gun anyway. Supposedly some form lists a way of opting out after you are entered and I figure once in I can read whatever forms or documents I am given and confirm or deny that rumor. But aside from that, I am already "in the system." The only thing rap back does is it automatically shares the information they already have on me anyway, I am not going to stop because of this law and I will support my local gun shops.
Post by: London808 on February 12, 2017, 10:01:22 AM
I don't like it either but I decided to go ahead and buy a gun anyway. Supposedly some form lists a way of opting out after you are entered and I figure once in I can read whatever forms or documents I am given and confirm or deny that rumor. But aside from that, I am already "in the system." The only thing rap back does is it automatically shares the information they already have on me anyway, I am not going to stop because of this law and I will support my local gun shops.
I have already linked the forms, there is no opt out option on them. It does not share information they already have on you. It enters you into a whole new federally controlled and managed. Not to mention the database thats created with the HCJDC, one stroke of the pen and all that data could become public.
Its not a matter of stopping its a matter of fighting it. Giving up your 4th and 5th amendment to have your 2ndis just as bad as giving up your 2nd to keep your 4th and 5th. Now if some one didnet own any guns and needed one for home defnece i would be sure you got to do what you got to do. But signing over your rights to own toys....... Shame.
Post by: robtmc on February 12, 2017, 07:53:40 PM
I am already "in the system."
Imagine that...............
Post by: eyeeatingfish on February 14, 2017, 06:10:32 AM
Imagine that...............
I thought we were all law abiding gun owners here.All my guns are registered.... well the ones I am required to register.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on February 14, 2017, 06:19:23 AM
I have already linked the forms, there is no opt out option on them. It does not share information they already have on you. It enters you into a whole new federally controlled and managed. Not to mention the database thats created with the HCJDC, one stroke of the pen and all that data could become public.
Its not a matter of stopping its a matter of fighting it. Giving up your 4th and 5th amendment to have your 2ndis just as bad as giving up your 2nd to keep your 4th and 5th. Now if some one didnet own any guns and needed one for home defnece i would be sure you got to do what you got to do. But signing over your rights to own toys....... Shame.
We already had the conversation about the forms, like I said I am going to see if there are any additional forms, federal ones for example, that you get after.
Yes, I understand it is a different database but my point is that I am already in HPD's firearm registry and once you are in one registry your information is already there for the government to access. If the feds decided they wanted to know if I had guns they could just call HPD and ask. Rap back just makes information sharing easier and quicker.
You hold out, I respect that, but I have thought it over for some time and I am going to go ahead and buy a new gun anyway. I will keep the gun stores open till you win your lawsuit
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on February 14, 2017, 11:41:26 AM
We already had the conversation about the forms, like I said I am going to see if there are any additional forms, federal ones for example, that you get after.
Yes, I understand it is a different database but my point is that I am already in HPD's firearm registry and once you are in one registry your information is already there for the government to access. If the feds decided they wanted to know if I had guns they could just call HPD and ask. Rap back just makes information sharing easier and quicker.
You hold out, I respect that, but I have thought it over for some time and I am going to go ahead and buy a new gun anyway. I will keep the gun stores open till you win your lawsuit
And therein lies the entire argument against RAPBACK. Instead of a system that requires a need for government to run a check on you, now they have an automated reporting system that PUSHES the information so you are flagged.
Until you understand the difference between a background check and being monitored 24/7, you'll never get why RAPBACK is bad for individual rights.
Post by: drck1000 on February 14, 2017, 12:05:43 PM
And therein lies the entire argument against RAPBACK. Instead of a system that requires a need for government to run a check on you, now they have an automated reporting system that PUSHES the information so you are flagged.That. . .
Until you understand the difference between a background check and being monitored 24/7, you'll never get why RAPBACK is bad for individual rights.
Plus guilty until proven innocent, at least based on what I've heard how your firearms permit would be rescinded and firearms have to be turned in based on an ARREST only. That and I thought it was ruled unconstitutional to have to register to exercise a right.
Wrong on so many levels. Not to mention this legislation being pushed through when there was overwhelming opposition vs support, at least based on what I was told. Are the legislators representing their people? Or their own personal beliefs?
Wish someone could push legislation that would require changes to pay for legislators, both at the state and national level, to have to pass a public vote of say 2/3.
Post by: punaperson on February 14, 2017, 03:34:44 PM
Are the legislators representing their people? Or their own personal beliefs?Hawaii is the only state in the United States that has neither initiative, nor referendum, nor recall options for citizens to express their dissatisfaction with the legislators and the legislative process controlled by them. There are also no term limits. There is zero chance that the Hawaii "progressive" legislators will ever enact any of those provisions, as it relinquishes power to the people, and out of their total control. And "the people" having more say in what happens in this state is anathema to their agenda.
Wish someone could push legislation that would require changes to pay for legislators, both at the state and national level, to have to pass a public vote of say 2/3.
Post by: drck1000 on February 14, 2017, 04:17:55 PM
Hawaii is the only state in the United States that has neither initiative, nor referendum, nor recall options for citizens to express their dissatisfaction with the legislators and the legislative process controlled by them. There are also no term limits. There is zero chance that the Hawaii "progressive" legislators will ever enact any of those provisions, as it relinquishes power to the people, and out of their total control. And "the people" having more say in what happens in this state is anathema to their agenda.Was a rhetorical question, but thank you for your thoughtful response.
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Post by: punaperson on February 14, 2017, 04:28:53 PM
Was a rhetorical question, but thank you for your thoughtful response.I suspect/hope that occasionally someone unfamiliar with the level of tyranny in Hawaii may be reading these threads... A comment I often hear when discussing Hawaii's Second Amendment infringements with non-residents is "I didn't know it was THAT bad".
Post by: beekeeping1341 on February 14, 2017, 07:48:59 PM
The NRA does not care about Hawaii. The 9th circuit ruled based upon emotion and politics.
Some people here spout about x law getting to the supreme Court and that's everything's going to be okay because they said x law was wrong. Doesn't mean anything. The anti gun populace here will continue to elect politicians who will continue to undermine the 2a in whatever sneaky and insidious ways they can.
If takes years for a case to get to the supreme Court. This state can get a law struck down after a 6 year battle, and enact similar legislation, and whole that may also be struck down its the law of the land until then and the legislators know that. And they'll keep doing it.
Long story short, leave and go to a state where your voice will be heard and count. Vote to keep red states red. Hawaii is a lost cause.
A little bit of temporary sacrifice goes a long way towards happiness elsewhere
Post by: beekeeping1341 on February 14, 2017, 07:51:58 PM
Post by: eyeeatingfish on February 14, 2017, 08:28:12 PM
And therein lies the entire argument against RAPBACK. Instead of a system that requires a need for government to run a check on you, now they have an automated reporting system that PUSHES the information so you are flagged.
Until you understand the difference between a background check and being monitored 24/7, you'll never get why RAPBACK is bad for individual rights.
I completely understand the difference and I never said it was good for individual rights, I just said I have decided that it isn't going to stop me from purchasing a firearm.
Post by: whynow? on February 14, 2017, 09:36:26 PM
If y'all hate it so much here just move out. Every single last one of us knows that Hawaii is a lost cause. You are a tiny blip of red in a sea of blue. Move to a red state and vote to keep it even more red. It's hard moving for damn sure, but after seeing this rap back horse shit and having to get permission from the to practice my 2a my wife and I decided to move. It doesn't matter how good of a job I have, sacrificing my rights isn't worth it. It's stressful moving when my wife is due two months after we get to TX but I'll be damned if I raise our daughter in a blue state.
The NRA does not care about Hawaii. The 9th circuit ruled based upon emotion and politics.
Some people here spout about x law getting to the supreme Court and that's everything's going to be okay because they said x law was wrong. Doesn't mean anything. The anti gun populace here will continue to elect politicians who will continue to undermine the 2a in whatever sneaky and insidious ways they can.
If takes years for a case to get to the supreme Court. This state can get a law struck down after a 6 year battle, and enact similar legislation, and whole that may also be struck down its the law of the land until then and the legislators know that. And they'll keep doing it.
Long story short, leave and go to a state where your voice will be heard and count. Vote to keep red states red. Hawaii is a lost cause.
A little bit of temporary sacrifice goes a long way towards happiness elsewhere
Everyone has a different story. Moving is not a option for me. I will probably drown in the sea of blue but this is the direction my life will take.
Post by: likecarry808 on February 14, 2017, 09:40:40 PM
Post by: London808 on February 14, 2017, 09:57:05 PM
Was told by a lawyer if you are in say tsa precheck or global entry your are in rap back and a lot of people are in it and don't even realize it.
But you are not in it with an auto report to a local PD just because you choose to exercise a constitional right. Its not the data that's a problem its the reason its stored and diseminated
ThetrThetre is many legitimate uses of trapback and every o e of them is based on a choice, here you have no choice, you are forced i. To it or lose your constionally protected rights
Post by: Heavies on February 14, 2017, 10:16:42 PM
But you are not in it with an auto report to a local PD just because you choose to exercise a constitional right. Its not the data that's a problem its the reason its stored and diseminated
ThetrThetre is many legitimate uses of trapback and every o e of them is based on a choice, here you have no choice, you are forced i. To it or lose your constionally protected rights
(http://cliparts.co/cliparts/rTj/Kb6/rTjKb6nGc.jpg)
(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAKMAAAAJDQ1MWU3MTA1LTM5NjUtNDg4Yy1hMGM3LTg4YzUyZjg0ZjFhZQ.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/q3mTqD28xhM/maxresdefault.jpg)
Post by: z06psi on February 14, 2017, 10:24:44 PM
If y'all hate it so much here just move out. Every single last one of us knows that Hawaii is a lost cause. You are a tiny blip of red in a sea of blue. Move to a red state and vote to keep it even more red. It's hard moving for damn sure, but after seeing this rap back horse shit and having to get permission from the to practice my 2a my wife and I decided to move. It doesn't matter how good of a job I have, sacrificing my rights isn't worth it. It's stressful moving when my wife is due two months after we get to TX but I'll be damned if I raise our daughter in a blue state.Under Federal orders. I can't leave.
The NRA does not care about Hawaii. The 9th circuit ruled based upon emotion and politics.
Some people here spout about x law getting to the supreme Court and that's everything's going to be okay because they said x law was wrong. Doesn't mean anything. The anti gun populace here will continue to elect politicians who will continue to undermine the 2a in whatever sneaky and insidious ways they can.
If takes years for a case to get to the supreme Court. This state can get a law struck down after a 6 year battle, and enact similar legislation, and whole that may also be struck down its the law of the land until then and the legislators know that. And they'll keep doing it.
Long story short, leave and go to a state where your voice will be heard and count. Vote to keep red states red. Hawaii is a lost cause.
A little bit of temporary sacrifice goes a long way towards happiness elsewhere
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Post by: Inspector on February 15, 2017, 06:06:47 AM
Under Federal orders. I can't leave.Under wife's orders. I can't leave either. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Post by: drck1000 on February 15, 2017, 07:03:00 AM
Under Federal orders. I can't leave.
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Under wife's orders. I can't leave either. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:We all have choices. Whether or not we are willing to live with the consequences is a different story. [joking here]
Federal orders - I assume that results in a fine at minimum or even Federal punishment.
Wife orders - I assume that results in sleeping on the couch at minimum or even loss of funding for future firearm purchases.
;D
Post by: z06psi on February 15, 2017, 07:08:21 AM
The Hawaii state legislature needs to wake up. They won't though and I will be long gone in 14 months never, absolutely never to return.
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Post by: Inspector on February 15, 2017, 07:14:17 AM
We all have choices. Whether or not we are willing to live with the consequences is a different story. [joking here]I get your joking, but you are absolutely correct. I made a choice a long time ago to live with the consequences. And one way or another I am staying in Hawaii. Hopefully soon to be living on the Big Island.
Federal orders - I assume that results in a fine at minimum or even Federal punishment.All joking aside, I have to make clear my wife is really not like that. She is always encouraging me to spend money on myself. I control most of the money in our marriage and I am kinda pake towards myself. I just can't come to grips with spending a lot of money on a firearm that I would be afraid to drop, ding, dent or somehow accidentally damage. I am accident prone. When it comes to spending money on her I will spend whatever money on her. But she doesn't want much. We are sort of just happy with what we have and don't really buy much.
Wife orders - I assume that results in sleeping on the couch at minimum or even loss of funding for future firearm purchases.
;D
Post by: drck1000 on February 15, 2017, 07:28:08 AM
I get your joking, but you are absolutely correct. I made a choice a long time ago to live with the consequences. And one way or another I am staying in Hawaii. Hopefully soon to be living on the Big Island.All joking aside, I have to make clear my wife is really not like that. She is always encouraging me to spend money on myself. I control most of the money in our marriage and I am kinda pake towards myself. I just can't come to grips with spending a lot of money on a firearm that I would be afraid to drop, ding, dent or somehow accidentally damage. I am accident prone. When it comes to spending money on her I will spend whatever money on her. But she doesn't want much. We are sort of just happy with what we have and don't really buy much.I hear ya. Was just busting yer balls. Happy wife, happy life. :thumbsup:
I am the same way with guns. All my guns are shooters. I don't have any that are heirlooms, vintage, etc. I mean I would like to have such valuable guns one day, but it's not like I'm going to throw down money for them. Like when I was offered a great deal on a pre-ban AK. The seller asked and I told him I was going to shoot it. LOTS! He sort of got all huffy and said that I shouldn't shoot it, that it would lose value. Well, my value is in that I can enjoy shooting it. It's not that I trash my guns, or anything else that I own. I do have some expensive guns, but they are all tools. They get shot, cleaned and shot again. If they get dinged, finish marred, etc, so be it.
Post by: Inspector on February 15, 2017, 07:34:11 AM
I hear ya. Was just busting yer balls. Happy wife, happy life. :thumbsup:I am exactly the same way. All my guns are shooters. I rotate through the safe constantly so no gun gets neglected. A few only gets shot only a couple of times a year, but I shoot them all, and I keep them cleaned and oiled. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I am the same way with guns. All my guns are shooters. I don't have any that are heirlooms, vintage, etc. I mean I would like to have such valuable guns one day, but it's not like I'm going to throw down money for them. Like when I was offered a great deal on a pre-ban AK. The seller asked and I told him I was going to shoot it. LOTS! He sort of got all huffy and said that I shouldn't shoot it, that it would lose value. Well, my value is in that I can enjoy shooting it. It's not that I trash my guns, or anything else that I own. I do have some expensive guns, but they are all tools. They get shot, cleaned and shot again. If they get dinged, finish marred, etc, so be it.
Post by: RSN172 on February 15, 2017, 09:57:09 AM
Under wife's orders. I can't leave either. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Same here. My wife does not want to leave Hawaii. Other than the gun laws, I love Hawaii, but I already told my wife that if she should predecease me, I am moving to NV. Moving from Oahu to the BI has made it more tolerable. At least here I can just go out to the backyard and shoot as often as I like.
Post by: 83rdrecon on March 05, 2017, 11:54:56 AM
Post by: NightWatchman on March 07, 2017, 09:23:52 AM
Post by: sikryd on April 15, 2017, 03:47:07 PM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 15, 2017, 03:48:25 PM
If a person was a firearm owner prior to the BS Rap Back law, are they automatically entered into the system? Or is it only if you buy another firearm after the law was put into effect? If it's the latter, it looks like 80% lower purchases will go up.
New permits/registrations only ... at least, for now.
Post by: rklapp on April 21, 2017, 07:36:16 AM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 21, 2017, 09:22:06 AM
Technically, they could dump all of the unregistered rapback gun owners into the FBI system except the law is specific to new permits/registration and good luck getting the $42 from the unregistered.
Technically, they can not. It requires the owner's consent, not to mention the state isn't going to pay the subscription fees.
Since there is no way to unregister a firearm, HPD has no quick way to determine which registrations are for residents and which are for guns no longer in the state.
No, the only way they will get prior registrants in RAPBACK is to do some "renewal" of existing gun registrations.
Post by: z06psi on April 21, 2017, 10:06:31 AM
Technically, they can not. It requires the owner's consent, not to mention the state isn't going to pay the subscription fees.Not even Will Espero was aware you could not unregister your guns from the system if they left the state.
Since there is no way to unregister a firearm, HPD has no quick way to determine which registrations are for residents and which are for guns no longer in the state.
No, the only way they will get prior registrants in RAPBACK is to do some "renewal" of existing gun registrations.
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Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 21, 2017, 10:16:35 AM
Not even Will Espero was aware you could not unregister your guns from the system if they left the state.
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Espero isn't exactly the "gold standard" for educated legislators! :rofl:
Post by: z06psi on April 21, 2017, 10:23:37 AM
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