Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards (Read 12747 times)

tim808

Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« on: October 17, 2017, 08:09:22 PM »
I've read that the old rule of thumb is 1x per 100 yards and it also depends on if your shooting paper or steel.  I'm not sure if age is a consideration (poorer vision).  A dealer mentioned that a lot buyers now seem to go 2x per 100 yards.

My friend is looking at getting a variable in the 6x-24x range and likely a 50 objective.  His budget is up to $1000 (ie approx equal to the cost of his rifle).  I think he has been looking at vortex, leupold, Nikon and some of the German brands....there was a recent sale on Zeiss.   He is also looking at refurbished scopes from the brands with life time warranties.

I'm much poorer so my used rifle didn't cost as much....my budget is $400.  Looking at a fixed 10x42 or 12x42 scope...the swfa ss....approx $300.  The 10x should be good enough but I'm leaning to the 12x since I'm old. 

We're looking to eventually attempt out to 600 yards at Puuloa.  We're old - early 50's (vision not what it used to be).  Don't hunt or plan to hunt.

I'm thinking that our proposed buys should be ok but I'm green/new and open to any advice/recommendations on scopes

He currently has a Nikon prostaff 4-12 x42 and I have vortex diamondback 4-12x42.  So we should be ok with our current scopes when we first start going.  I probably won't buy a new scope till I've shot there a few times.  My friend will likely get a scope during the holiday sales.

Thanks in advance

ren

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 08:32:59 PM »
I didn't hear about that rule of thumb.
A year ago we were shooting with irons at 600 and I shot higher scores then compared with a scope now. I'm still learning to adapt to shooting with a scope.
Vortex is a good brand, reasonably priced and have a good warranty. I have a 1-4x Viper PST. Cost about $360. Tracks very well. All the way out to 600. As reliable as my irons were <knock on wood>
An increase in magnification will magnify all your wobble and positional errors. It doesn't necessarily make shooting easier but it will be easier on older eyes like myself. I had +75 lense in my iron sight. Now with a scope it is obviously not needed. Much easier on the eyes.
As we age, the lense that allows our eyes to focus gets harder - called presbyopia
https://www.aao.org/eye-health/diseases/what-is-presbyopia

« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 08:41:54 PM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

zippz

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 08:36:36 PM »
Never heard of the rule, but 1x at 100 yards sounds like it refers to hunting or human targets.
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myanmar1

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 08:40:00 PM »
Vortex Viper pst6-24x50 is a nice scope in the 1000 price range.
At 400,i'de look for a used Vortex HST 6-24x50.
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!” — Benjamin Franklin

tim808

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 10:28:10 PM »
Ren/Zippz - 1x per 100 yard - I only read about it yesterday.  Seems like it is more for shooting gongs or hunting.....not paper.   Then again, If Ren shoots better with irons.....maybe 1x per 100 yards could apply to paper. 

Myanmar - thanks for the heads up....I'll try looking for one

Tom_G

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 08:48:48 AM »
Years ago, we brought in Chuck Taylor to run a sniper class out on the Marine Corp base. I stuck a fixed 10x scope on a 1903a4 to play. During the first day, we moved out to 400 yards. Gotta say, trying to hit a bullseye at 400 yards with 10x was...challenging. The lines in the reticle, which seemed so very thin at closer ranges, were as fat as the bullseye. In general, I'm a fan of "least magnification you can make work," but my newly-50-year-old-eyes are thinking that 1x per 100 may be conservative.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

tim808

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 11:02:51 AM »
Hi Tom
Ok - I'm xing the fixed 10x and fixed 12x off the list.  I'll start looking for a variable scope

rklapp

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 11:07:35 AM »
For now, I'm happy with my scopes. The 6x and my old eyes are good for 50 yards and 16x for the 100 yards. For game (and human targets???), can always dial down the magnification. The main difference is light and durability. I've been really happy with Vortex.

As ren knows, I haven't spent much on optics but only shoot at Kokohead. I might also look for a decent scope this holiday.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Bushido

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 07:43:39 PM »
I suggest to use what you have and figure out what your goals/plans are before spending any money unnecessarily.

Service rifle is limited to 4.5X (I believe). F-Class shooters use variables well into the 50-60X range. It really depends on the game you're playing. If PRS is your goal, I'd probably lean toward a FFP. F-Class i prefer a SFP.

Magnification is a plus to have IMO. The higher the magnification the worse the mirage will be. For newer shooters, that can be fustrating to see through the scope. Seasoned shooters sort of embrace the mirage as it gives them a better wind reading.

My $.02 I'm sure some will disagree.

Heavies

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2017, 12:42:03 AM »
It really depends....   lol not much help, I know. 

If you are going to target shoot and have a lower budget, go with at least 12 to 14X, better if you can get out to 24-25X.  Anything higher is just a bonus, when conditions are ideal.   Past 300 yards, unless it's a nice cool day, mirage will distort the sight picture and cause fliers.  What I do is turn down magnification to just the amount where I can just see mirage, it helps on wind call and when to shoot.  Get a fine reticle for target shooting, not a fat lined mil dot or whatever ...  The more precise you can get with your aim point, the better.   Golf tees at 300yards are fun...

IMHO, reconsider your budget of $400.  Good REPEATABLE glass will make or break your rifle/shooting ability.  A $1000 rifle with a $400 scope will shoot to the $400 scopes ability, all else being equal.  If you get the $400 rifles group in the same place EVERY TIME, that is much more to your advantage.

drck1000

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2017, 08:05:17 AM »
You've gotten some good feedback here.  Like many have said, it depends on what you want with the gun. 

Personally, I was SURE I needed something in the 6-24 range for my .308 Rem 700.  I ended up with a 4-16 Vortex Viper PST since it was what the dealer that I had hooks ups with had in stock and I didn't want to wait.  Anyways, I've found that it was about perfect for me and what I wanted.  At the time, it was learning about precision shooting, trying to improve and see what I can do grouping wise at 100 yards and to have fun hitting all of the stuff that used to be available to shoot beyond the berm at Koko Head.  That's all gone now, but what I found was that the 16 power was plenty for me to shoot groups at 100 yards.  I had a few chances to shoot the gun in the 400-600 yard range, but that was to hit larger steel targets and the 4-16 was plenty.  I had planned on taking the gun out to one of the Puuloa shoots, but never did get around to it. 

When I was looking at rifle scopes, I was also warned that clarity can be as big a factor as power.  I'm no gear snob.  While I've always wanted a scope with the NF, S&M, USO, etc name on it, I've been happy with my Vortex.  That said, I've looked through some quality glass and was amazed at differences. 

ren

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2017, 09:12:14 AM »
One lesson I learned was not to spend money on a scope I was planning to upgrade later. It's money wasted because you wont recoup costs on a scope. If you want a $$$ scope - save for it. You'll be happy later.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:18:33 AM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

2ahavvaii

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2017, 09:19:54 AM »
You've gotten some good feedback here.  Like many have said, it depends on what you want with the gun. 

Personally, I was SURE I needed something in the 6-24 range for my .308 Rem 700.  I ended up with a 4-16 Vortex Viper PST since it was what the dealer that I had hooks ups with had in stock and I didn't want to wait.  Anyways, I've found that it was about perfect for me and what I wanted.  At the time, it was learning about precision shooting, trying to improve and see what I can do grouping wise at 100 yards and to have fun hitting all of the stuff that used to be available to shoot beyond the berm at Koko Head.  That's all gone now, but what I found was that the 16 power was plenty for me to shoot groups at 100 yards.  I had a few chances to shoot the gun in the 400-600 yard range, but that was to hit larger steel targets and the 4-16 was plenty.  I had planned on taking the gun out to one of the Puuloa shoots, but never did get around to it. 

When I was looking at rifle scopes, I was also warned that clarity can be as big a factor as power.  I'm no gear snob.  While I've always wanted a scope with the NF, S&M, USO, etc name on it, I've been happy with my Vortex.  That said, I've looked through some quality glass and was amazed at differences.

4-16x is plenty IMO for shorter yardage.  And also I think for most shooting, unless you're an expert long distance shooter or something (which I am not), the lower 3-4x power is more useful, especially in the 100-200 yard ranges.  I personally would not want a 6x minimum power.

But if you're looking to shoot 400 yards minimum, the 6x might  make sense

----------------------------------

Also, it's a good idea to do research on what you want, then wait for sales and rebates.  Even the popular scopes typically are marked off pretty heavily from MSRP.  A $1000 MSRP scope, you should be buying at maybe $700.  many times when new models of a scope come out, retailers will look to push out the older versions and discount them.    You could also look at buying used good quality scopes, those should be at a significant discount to the scope on sale. 

Like a 2nd gen vortex pst should be under $1k, even though msrp might be $1.3k to 1.4k.  If you can find a 1st gen, you probably can get for $500-600 maybe?  I remember seeing them for $700 on sale before the 2nd gen came out. 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:35:30 AM by 2ahavvaii »

drck1000

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 09:29:46 AM »
4-16x is plenty IMO.  And also I think for most shooting, unless you're an expert long distance shooter or something (which I am not), the lower 3-4x power is more useful, especially in the 100-200 yard ranges.  I personally would not want a 6x minimum power.

But if you're looking to shoot 400 yards minimum, the 6x might  make sense

----------------------------------

Also, it's a good idea to do research on what you want, then wait for sales and rebates.  Even the popular scopes typically are marked off pretty heavily from MSRP.  A $1000 MSRP scope, you should be buying at maybe $700.  many times when new models of a scope come out, retailers will look to push out the older versions and discount them.    You could also look at buying used good quality scopes, those should be at a significant discount to the scope on sale.
Yeah.  Looking back, 3-9 would have been fine for what I was shooting, which was 450ish yards max.  I did have plans to try shooting out to 1000 yards, but the range opportunities for that have gone from slim to none.   

zippz

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 09:34:17 AM »
4-16x is the best all around range that can do just about everything.  If you want to specialize in a certain area, then you'll get a scope for that specific purpose.  For precision shooting you'll want a very high powered scope like 50-60x like Heavies mentioned.  For hunting it would be be on the low end, about 2-9x.  Tactical shooting 4-16x.  6x24 is kinda an oddball magnification, leaning towards the precision area.

There are downsides to having too much magnification.  As said earlier, the low end is too magnified to do certain things.  You need bigger and heavier scopes, more expensive, and smaller exit pupil which is gives less freedom in eye positioning.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

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scorpio ps

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 10:09:32 AM »
IMHO the more mag power the better. Remember most likely you will have this scope for a long time. As you get older you will need more mag just to be able to see the target. You can always tone down the mag but you can't increase it cause it's not there. One thing I have not heard here is the exit pupil. I find that it's just as critical as glass clarity when it comes to choosing a scope. You can see what happens to the light intake as you age. Lets take for example a 50mm objective, one inch tube 4x24 mag.  4 mag gives you and exit pupil of 12.5mm, 24mag gives you a 2.08mm exit pupil. As you can see from the chart at age 50 max pupil opening during daylight is 3.5mm yet your scope allows only 2.08mm of exit pupil, that's a full 15% less light than your eye can take in. Now imagine a 20 year old with a pupil opening of 4.7mm and only 2.08mm of light is allowed by the scope, that means that he's missing out on half the light that his eye can take in. As you get older your eyes will let less light in as the pupil has a smaller opening. Kind of like you have to increase the wattage of the bulbs in your house cause you think they are making weaker bulbs. Actually your pupils are not dilating as much. When choosing a scope go for a large objective, tube, mag and exit pupil. Remember, you can always tone the mag and get more light in.   

Average human eye pupil diameter change
versus age 50 max pupil opening
Age
(years)   Day
Pupil (mm)   Night
Pupil (mm)
20   4.7   8
30   4.3   7
40   3.9   6
50   3.5   5
60   3.1   4.1
70   2.7   3.2
80   2.3   2.5

rklapp

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 12:25:18 PM »
Interesting. I’ve noticed that as I’ve aged, my eyes have a harder time focusing. Some days are better than others. I have no problems with holding the reticle steady. I do have trouble focusing for more than ten seconds or so.

“While normally we think of aging as it relates to conditions such as presbyopia and cataracts, more subtle changes in our vision and eye structures also take place as we grow older. These changes include:
Reduced pupil size. As we age, muscles that control our pupil size and reaction to light lose some strength. This causes the pupil to become smaller and less responsive to changes in ambient lighting.”
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Bushido

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 07:51:48 PM »
I see so many spend a good amount of money on a rifle but skimp on the optic and moreso the mounting hardware. Ammo quality should also be a consideration.

ren

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 08:10:36 PM »
I see so many spend a good amount of money on a rifle but skimp on the optic and moreso the mounting hardware. Ammo quality should also be a consideration.

I agree. When you decide to buy a rifle and intend to put a scope on it, budget for the rifle and optic you want. Don't kid yourself with an Osprey at first then plan to upgrade to a Leupold. Sorry if I offended any Osprey owners out there but you can't compare it to a Nightforce no matter what that vendor tells you.
Deeds Not Words

Heavies

Re: Scope magnification - 1x per 100 yards
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 08:15:11 PM »
If you intend to target shoot, get higher magnification.  If you intend to shoot F-class get at least 24-25X variable, with adjustable parallax.  If you just want to plink at Kokohead, then get what ever...  I've spent bucks on crap scopes and big bucks on great scopes. 

Your intended purpose will dictate what is needed.  This is from personal experience.