that's not what you asked for
goalposts moved...

I am, in fact, serious.  If there were evidence of causation, you’d be able to find and link to it… more than just one study, from a for-profit journal, that didn’t make any inference of causation.

How many people who attempt or complete suicide show tendencies toward interpersonal violence prior to their suicide attempt?  That would be an interesting data point.

Yes, it really is my belief that a tendency to new suicidal ideations after taking antidepressants does not mean an equal or greater tendency to interpersonal violence after taking antidepressants.

https://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii-looking-at-expanding-psychedelic-therapies/article_cd31454e-793b-11ee-8ca9-bffd57a77635.html

"With more people experiencing trauma, we need to provide as many options as we can, to deal with PTSD, depression, and anxiety," added Hartsock.

Mani feels ketamine worked wonders for her, and Dr. Cook says Hawaii patients find it easier to accept the idea of psychedelic therapy than another important island group.

"It is harder to convince my doctor colleagues and lawmakers, because there is a cultural fear and cultural baggage. But once people delve into them, the healing becomes so personal that baggage becomes irrelevant," added Dr. Cook.

After informal meetings, Hawaii's Breakthrough Therapies Task Force will come up with recommendations before the legislative session.

Which means in a few months, lawmakers could end up voting on whether to expand psychedelic therapy in the islands.

Yeah. That’s a good idea. Let people already out of touch with reality go even further away from it.

Yeah. That’s a good idea. Let people already out of touch with reality go even further away from it.

thats a mentophobic statement

Haven’t seen evidence?  It’s right there on the long list of side effects on the label of these drugs.

Problem is that those drugs are trying to treat conidiations where people already have those risks.
So a drug treating depression may have a side effect of suicidal thoughts but someone with serious depression is likely already having suicidal thoughts. So did they kill themselves because of the drug or because they were already depressed and the drug didn't do enough to treat the depression? Are these shootings a side effect of the drug or merely a symptom of a condition the drug is trying to treat.

Basically there is correlation without proof of causation.

On top of that it gets complicated because many psych meds need to be taken for a while to stabilize in someone's body be most effective. So if someone takes them for just a week then stops or takes it for 6 months and then stops they may have unstable mental health periods. Then is that the fault of the medication itself or a person's failure to take it consistently?

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/off-duty-pilot-accused-trying-disable-jetliner-faces-first-court-hearing-2023-10-24/

An off-duty pilot charged with trying to disable the engines of an Alaska Airlines jet in flight told police afterward he was suffering a nervous breakdown, had taken psychedelic mushrooms two days earlier and had not slept in 40 hours, court documents showed on Tuesday.

Joseph David Emerson, 44, an Alaska Airlines (ALK.N) pilot, was riding as a standby employee passenger in the cockpit "jump seat" of Sunday's flight, en route from Everett, Washington, to San Francisco, when the airborne altercation occurred, authorities said.

The largest ever mass killing (not terrorist/war related) was a pilot who decided to crash his plane and take everyone with him. I think it was like 140 dead.

Luckily these are few and far between.


This guy probably different though, he seems to have been trippin balls.

You are not serious.  If you were, you'd know I didn't post the same study as mac.

i can do the research for you, but i can't read (and understand) it for you.

That's two studies, Einstein.

At the risk of being accused of moving goalposts again, I’ll just put this here for reference.  When I say “study,” what I’m referring to is “study published in a quality, peer-reviewed journal.”

Not a website self-referring their own “study.”

And, thanks!  Einstein was a smart fella!

so, you aren't taking this seriously
got it...

I assure you, I am taking this VERY seriously.  I’d just like to see some credible evidence that indicates causation before I reach the conclusion that antidepressants are responsible for mass shootings.

At the risk of being accused of moving goalposts again, I’ll just put this here for reference.  When I say “study,” what I’m referring to is “study published in a quality, peer-reviewed journal.”

Not a website self-referring their own “study.”

And, thanks!  Einstein was a smart fella!

Failure to recognize sarcasm earns you 4 "Swoosh!"-es.

Unless you have peers disagreeng with a published, Swedish study, then you have no basis for dismissing it.

Just because it doesn't meet your criteria in no way gives evidence the study is invalid.

Failure to recognize sarcasm earns you 4 "Swoosh!"-es.

Unless you have peers disagreeng with a published, Swedish study, then you have no basis for dismissing it.

Just because it doesn't meet your criteria in no way gives evidence the study is invalid.

I didn’t say it was invalid.  I said it was one data point, of suspect reliability, that doesn’t even appear to attempt to draw a causal relationship between antidepressants and mass shootings.

I didn’t say it was invalid.  I said it was one data point, of suspect reliability, that doesn’t even appear to attempt to draw a causal relationship between antidepressants and mass shootings.

How obtuse can one man be?

Nobody said these drugs were a sole factor.  In fact, the existence of the meds indicate a preexisting mental problem.  That's the primary causation.

The issue with the drugs is the side effects are not disputed.  Nor are the severe mental problems associated with stopping the meds cold turkey.

If the drugs are present in more than half of mass shooters, why would you refuse to entertain the possibility that the drugs are a factor in their suicidal/violent behavior?

for a guy that likes to nitpick others' posts, you sure are careless about your own...

At the risk of being accused of moving goalposts again, I’ll just put this here for reference.  When I say “study,” what I’m referring to is “study published in a quality, peer-reviewed journal.”

Not a website self-referring their own “study.”

And, thanks!  Einstein was a smart fella!

still no comment about this???

good studies will always say this...

How obtuse can one man be?

Nobody said these drugs were a sole factor.  In fact, the existence of the meds indicate a preexisting mental problem.  That's the primary causation.

The issue with the drugs is the side effects are not disputed.  Nor are the severe mental problems associated with stopping the meds cold turkey.

If the drugs are present in more than half of mass shooters, why would you refuse to entertain the possibility that the drugs are a factor in their suicidal/violent behavior?

If the ad hominem attacks make you feel better, by all means continue.

I never said anyone said antidepressants were “a sole factor.”  I said I haven’t seen any evidence that the drugs are a causal or contributing factor.  Not saying they aren’t, just saying I haven’t seen the evidence.

Yes, the drugs have side effects, one of the most dangerous is increased suicidality.  Yes, quitting them cold turkey is a bad idea, which is why advertising, documentation, and prescribing psychiatrists all warn people about it.

still no comment about this???

Didn’t think it was worth addressing.

If the ad hominem attacks make you feel better, by all means continue.

I never said anyone said antidepressants were “a sole factor.” I said I haven’t seen any evidence that the drugs are a causal or contributing factor.  Not saying they aren’t, just saying I haven’t seen the evidence.

Yes, the drugs have side effects, one of the most dangerous is increased suicidality.  Yes, quitting them cold turkey is a bad idea, which is why advertising, documentation, and prescribing psychiatrists all warn people about it.

Really?? You used the term "contributing factor?"  Please show me where you said that.

I must be going blind.

Speaking of blind, did you miss the whole mass shootings are a public spectacle that is actually a suicidal action posts?  Why are you still intent on separating the two?

so you criticize a study because it says "more study is needed"?
is it "not worth adressing" because you deny this it is true that all good studies say this, or because you feel it is irrelevant?

Didn’t think it was worth addressing.

so you criticize a study because it says "more study is needed"?
is it "not worth adressing" because you deny this it is true that all good studies say this, or because you feel it is irrelevant?

I may not have communicated clearly.

I’m not criticizing the study because they recommend more studies; I give credit to the authors for recognizing that their study is not dispositive.  I’m saying I think it would be a mistake to put too much weight on the results of this study, in part because the authors themselves recognize that their study is of limited value due to the methods they used.

I don’t have any reason to believe that “all good studies say this.” 

I don’t believe it’s irrelevant, because as I say above, I think it limits the amount of weight one should give to this study in forming an opinion of whether antidepressants cause or contribute to mass shootings.

all that typing and you could have done the homework yourself instead of asking others to do it for you