These Trump supporters say US isn’t a democracy. And they’re okay with it (Read 4925 times)

eyeeatingfish

Nobody said that except you just now.

A republic IS NOT a form of democracy.

I gave you documented facts.

Go back and read.

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=53776.msg483408#msg483408

And quit moving goal posts.

IOW, you believe all republics are democracies (is a form of democracy).

I provided sourced information to the contrary.  Most republics on planet Earth who call themselves republics and which have been called republics based on historical fact have little to no democratic processes at all. 

Republics can, and do, exist even without democratic characteristics, processes or tendencies.

Therefore, it is not true that "a republic is a form of democracy," nor is it true that "it (a republic) is a democracy."  Both of your definitions are false, wrong and/or BS.

To repeat: you made that up.

Go scold Q if you have a problem with him saying a republic is a form of democracy.

I don't make things up. Taken from the Miriam Webster dictionary:
Republic
b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.

Sure sounds a lot like a democracy...

Democracy
b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

well look at that, nearly identical definitions.



Bottom line, the USA is a democracy. It is also a republic.

Q

Go scold Q if you have a problem with him saying a republic is a form of democracy.

I don't make things up. Taken from the Miriam Webster dictionary:
Republic
b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.

Sure sounds a lot like a democracy...

Democracy
b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

well look at that, nearly identical definitions.



Bottom line, the USA is a democracy. It is also a republic.

Fascism is a form of socialism.

Socialism is a form of democracy.

In accordance with EEF's argument, fascism is democracy.


See now dumb that is?

You keep regurgitating the same nonsense day after day with no sources aside from a dictionary definition; same dictionary, mind you, that redefined multiple definitions to coincide with the political agendas of the left.

You failed your debate against multiple individuals because you're pulling opinions out of your ass that you have yet to substantiate with any evidence or primary sources.

You lost, get over it. You're not changing any opinions by constantly posting the same bullshit in every response.

hvybarrels


You keep regurgitating the same nonsense day after day with no sources aside from a dictionary definition; same dictionary, mind you, that redefined multiple definitions to coincide with the political agendas of the left.



It's difficult for people who have been indoctrinated by corporate media to start thinking for themselves.

Living in Liberal Lala Land means we have a lot of work ahead of us helping others to understand what went wrong after it all falls apart, but that's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again. 


If you’re not a conspiracy theorist by now, you’re basically retarded.

changemyoil66

Fascism is a form of socialism.

Socialism is a form of democracy.

In accordance with EEF's argument, fascism is democracy.


See now dumb that is?

You keep regurgitating the same nonsense day after day with no sources aside from a dictionary definition; same dictionary, mind you, that redefined multiple definitions to coincide with the political agendas of the left.

You failed your debate against multiple individuals because you're pulling opinions out of your ass that you have yet to substantiate with any evidence or primary sources.

You lost, get over it. You're not changing any opinions by constantly posting the same bullshit in every response.


BBUUUUURRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN (In Travis Kelso voice)

hvybarrels

Fascism is actually defined as an unholy alliance between the corporations and the state

Mainstream media are actually Fascist News Networks
If you’re not a conspiracy theorist by now, you’re basically retarded.

eyeeatingfish

Fascism is a form of socialism.

Socialism is a form of democracy.

In accordance with EEF's argument, fascism is democracy.


See now dumb that is?

You keep regurgitating the same nonsense day after day with no sources aside from a dictionary definition; same dictionary, mind you, that redefined multiple definitions to coincide with the political agendas of the left.

You failed your debate against multiple individuals because you're pulling opinions out of your ass that you have yet to substantiate with any evidence or primary sources.

You lost, get over it. You're not changing any opinions by constantly posting the same bullshit in every response.

So are you backing away from your comment that a republic is a form of democracy?

BTW, fascism is not a form of socialism and socialism is not a form of democracy so yes that was pretty dumb.

Odd you are so quick to dismiss the use of a dictionary given the fact that the issue being debated rests on the very definition of words. But sure, lets toss out Mirriam Webster.
Cambridge
Democracy - A democracy is a country in which power is held by elected representatives.
Republic -  a country that is governed by elected representatives and an elected leader

Collins
Democracy is a system of government in which people choose their rulers by voting for them in elections.
A republic is a country where power is held by the people or the representatives that they elect. Republics have presidents who are elected, rather than kings or queens.

Britannica
Democracy 1 a [noncount] : a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting
Republic : a country that is governed by elected representatives and by an elected leader (such as a president) rather than by a king or queen

Need more dictionaries?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 11:30:27 AM by eyeeatingfish »

Flapp_Jackson

So are you backing away from your comment that a republic is a form of democracy?

Isn't that what you were arguing over and over? 

Are you now blaming Q for you being wrong?

Leave it to you to argue over what someone else may have posted just to argue.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Isn't that what you were arguing over and over? 

Are you now blaming Q for you being wrong?

Leave it to you to argue over what someone else may have posted just to argue.

Try to pay attention, my main argument was that the USA is both a democracy and a republic.

I agreed with Q's statement that a republic is a form of democracy. You haven't proven me wrong, you only claimed it.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 11:31:36 AM by eyeeatingfish »

Flapp_Jackson

Try to pay attention, my main argument was that the USA is both a democracy and a republic.

I agreed with Q's statement that a republic is a form of democracy and I supported my claim. You haven't proven me wrong, you only claim it.

i proved you wrong.

A republic is NOT a democracy -- by definition.  The fact that a company changed their definition to envelope how the US operates is irrelevant.

A republic BY definition is a government that does not have a monarch, dictator or tyrant in charge.  There are politicians who represent the will of the people (in theory) rather than the will of one ruler.  This is normally accomplished by drafting a constitution which details the make-up and function of the representatives.

How those representatives are chosen is where the definition branches out.  A democratic republic elects its representatives through a public vote.  However, as I already posted, most republics' representatives are selected by the heads of state, by the lawmakers, or simply as a matter of the individual's status.

You're arguing that since a cardinal is a bird, it follows that all birds are cardinals.  Just because a few republics incorporate a democratic representative selection process IN NO WAY implies that all republics are a democracy.

Go read the actual source documents, not just the first result on your Google search.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

i proved you wrong.

A republic is NOT a democracy -- by definition.  The fact that a company changed their definition to envelope how the US operates is irrelevant.

A republic BY definition is a government that does not have a monarch, dictator or tyrant in charge.  There are politicians who represent the will of the people (in theory) rather than the will of one ruler.  This is normally accomplished by drafting a constitution which details the make-up and function of the representatives.

How those representatives are chosen is where the definition branches out.  A democratic republic elects its representatives through a public vote.  However, as I already posted, most republics' representatives are selected by the heads of state, by the lawmakers, or simply as a matter of the individual's status.

You're arguing that since a cardinal is a bird, it follows that all birds are cardinals.  Just because a few republics incorporate a democratic representative selection process IN NO WAY implies that all republics are a democracy.

Go read the actual source documents, not just the first result on your Google search.

You proved nothing.

I took definitions from 4 different dictionaries all making my point. You seem to have selected some other definition of the word republic. (we may be arguing past each other)

Read the source documents? You mean the original use of the word in Latin?

Flapp_Jackson

You proved nothing.

I took definitions from 4 different dictionaries all making my point. You seem to have selected some other definition of the word republic. (we may be arguing past each other)

Read the source documents? You mean the original use of the word in Latin?

I'm done with you.  You just want to argue.

Can't teach a pig to sing.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

If we were a democracy, wouldn't it state so in the Constitution or like document?  What it does state is that we're a republic. Weird how it would state that, but not democracy.  I mean, even the Pledge of Allegiance states republic and not democracy.

Definitions can change over time, but the articles of paper that our founding fathers wrote doesn't change.

We can adopt parts of other types of things, but that doesn't make us it.  They're going after Trump (political opponent) like how communist do.  1 party controls majority of the media, fact checkers have a agenda and political side, etc...Does that mean the US is a communist country?

macsak

EEF probably feels that the Constitution is a "living document"...

If we were a democracy, wouldn't it state so in the Constitution or like document?  What it does state is that we're a republic. Weird how it would state that, but not democracy.  I mean, even the Pledge of Allegiance states republic and not democracy.

Definitions can change over time, but the articles of paper that our founding fathers wrote doesn't change.

We can adopt parts of other types of things, but that doesn't make us it.  They're going after Trump (political opponent) like how communist do.  1 party controls majority of the media, fact checkers have a agenda and political side, etc...Does that mean the US is a communist country?

Flapp_Jackson

EEF probably feels that the Constitution is a "living document"...

Merriam Webster's dictionary is THE authoritative source.  Nothing that existed before the latest edition is true.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Merriam Webster also defines what an "assault rifle" is and it states semi auto as well as full auto.  Gotta trust them right?

Flapp_Jackson

A Republic, If You Can Keep It

Just Benjamin Franklin's opinion.  Nothing we should place any real stock in, because the dictionary has at least one other definition.  Pick the one you agree with.

Quote
Those who claim that the Constitution provided for democracy as the cornerstone to our political system are historically mistaken. A democracy is an assurance of mob rule, where minority factions lose their liberty through legislation, and when power is consolidated over the subdued masses. This arrangement was intentionally dismissed during the time of ratification. James Madison specifically addressed this issue in The Federalist #10:

“From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”[1]

Later in this essay, Madison illustrated the alternative: “the same advantage which a republic has over a democracy, in controlling the effects of faction, is enjoyed by a large over a small republic, — is enjoyed by the Union over the States composing it.”[2] A republic, according to Madison, “promises the cure for which we are seeking.”[3]

Then serving as James Madison’s coadjutor, John Jay noted: “Pure democracy, like pure rum, easily produces intoxication, and with it a thousand mad pranks and fooleries.”[4] In the Philadelphia Convention, Edmund Randolph said, “in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy.”[5]

Alexander Hamilton, the organizer of The Federalist essays, said the following of democracy at New York’s Ratifying Convention of 1788:

“It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.”[6]

In opposition to democracy, a republic ensures that minority rights are protected. Individuals embody the smallest minority on earth, and are not exceptions to this creed. The individual was supposed to be superior to the collective. Individual rights were recognized, collectivized rights were not.

Franklin wisely understood that the value of liberty necessitated a republican form of government.
Quote
Emerging from behind the doors, Benjamin Franklin, a man many knew as “Poor Richard Saunders” approached. When asked by the woman what form the new government would take, Franklin answered shrewdly: “A republic, if you can keep it.”

https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2014/06/11/a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it/
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Q

A Republic, If You Can Keep It

Just Benjamin Franklin's opinion.  Nothing we should place any real stock in, because the dictionary has at least one other definition.  Pick the one you agree with.

https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2014/06/11/a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it/


No no no, Flapp. Don't quote the Federalist papers or the guy who literally drafted the Constitution.

What matters most is what the Google dictionary defines.

changemyoil66

Look up what Merriam defines as "male" or "man".  Yeah, trust the dictionary.