Firearms Training - Sharing Experience (Read 54460 times)

zippz

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 04:31:03 PM »
    Yes, the new standards  "safety, tuck, dump, reload, release bolt, un-tuck,  safety" while tactical technique was difficult for me, but I think if I get an ambi safety, I'll give that a whack again.
Changing stance after years upon years was/is also challenging.

     Now the question is do you incorporate these new techniques (like stance) into your instruction of others or maintain the acknowledged NRA type basic skills for entry level students.
I think maintaining  the "basic skills for entry level" sides with the walk before you can run"  philosophy but is like "learning to print before learning to write" (not like anybody writes anymore) where you throw away what you've learned to learn it a new way.
    Thoughts/Opinions ? :-\

For Beginners, I mostly teach the actual NRA Pistol classes so I stick with their techniques for new students.  It works with a wide variety of students.  Showing extra techniques in for new students can confuse them.  Better to do a separate class on intermediate/advanced techniques later or through coaching.

For the Safety thing, it took me about 15 minutes of practice to get it down and it's natural for me now.  Although it doesn't take any added time (at least on a AR15),  I still don't see the benefit of doing it.  I figure someone spent a lot of time figuring it out and it's becomming more common, so I just do it.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 04:55:30 PM »
For Beginners, I mostly teach the actual NRA Pistol classes so I stick with their techniques for new students.  It works with a wide variety of students.  Showing extra techniques in for new students can confuse them.  Better to do a separate class on intermediate/advanced techniques later or through coaching.

For the Safety thing, it took me about 15 minutes of practice to get it down and it's natural for me now.  Although it doesn't take any added time (at least on a AR15),  I still don't see the benefit of doing it.  I figure someone spent a lot of time figuring it out and it's becomming more common, so I just do it.
I spent a good part of a carbine class trying the safety thing. I could do it if I went in a deliberate pace. When I started ramping things up, would skip that step or put on safe way late. Will definitely give it more of a try. I had a good conversation on the whys and such. I can see some of the whys.  However, just have to give it some time.

Surf

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2018, 11:43:33 PM »
As for any technique it is easier to teach any new student whatever you deem is correct via the instructors own training and experience.  It is more difficult for those who already have something else ingrained to un-learn and re-learn something new.

As noted in a recent 2 day carbine class a brand new lady shooter, never firing a rifle before had the steps down that any "advanced" shooter might use.  Was she still in the heavy cognitive thought phase?  Absolutely, but she performed well and was way ahead of the curve for her level of 2 days of training.  Tuck, safety, whatever, it was she knows as normal because she was trained that way from the start.

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2018, 03:46:26 PM »
As for any technique it is easier to teach any new student whatever you deem is correct via the instructors own training and experience.  It is more difficult for those who already have something else ingrained to un-learn and re-learn something new.

As noted in a recent 2 day carbine class a brand new lady shooter, never firing a rifle before had the steps down that any "advanced" shooter might use.  Was she still in the heavy cognitive thought phase?  Absolutely, but she performed well and was way ahead of the curve for her level of 2 days of training.  Tuck, safety, whatever, it was she knows as normal because she was trained that way from the start.
I can say that the un-learn process is harder than the learn in many regards. Sometimes I wonder if my occasional breaks from shooting can be “good” in a way. When I get back into things, hopefully easier to incorporate the new things. I mean I don’t want to have breaks in shooting and let skills perish/diminish, but life happens at times and maybe can be put to some good.

I’ve found that brand new lady shooters often pick up things much faster than adult males. I often remind myself that while I have been through a good amount of quality training, that to keep an open mind whenever I attend a class, at any level. And said lady shooter was quite impressive.  Seeing her progression through the two days was eye opening in many ways for me, particularly the process and progression of lessons.

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2018, 03:50:23 PM »
Another things that I’ve learned is that in addition to her class costs, I usually have to factor in the “gear fund”. Sometimes I update equipment or have to replace worn gear. Then after class, I usually have a list of things to buy or to try. I’ve refined my gear setups over the years, but I am always open to newer or improved gear, or things that I’ve found just don’t work for me anymore.

Wake27

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2018, 08:48:46 PM »
One thing that's frustrating about the un-learning is how easy it is to pick something up that you later have to get rid of. I noticed from a video in one of the last classes that because we do so much shooting from the low ready, I actually dipped the muzzle after doing a reload in the workspace and then had to bring it back up. I've caught myself doing that again too, felt like an idiot because of the rookie wasted movement. Provides more justification to work from a high port gun, but a lot of places and organizations aren't fans of that.

The fund thing is hard too. Typically when I'm not shooting as often, I spend a lot more money and new stuff to try. If I have easy access to a range or frequent classes, then I only care about the fees and ammo that I need to be able to practice.

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2018, 01:59:19 PM »
One thing that's frustrating about the un-learning is how easy it is to pick something up that you later have to get rid of. I noticed from a video in one of the last classes that because we do so much shooting from the low ready, I actually dipped the muzzle after doing a reload in the workspace and then had to bring it back up. I've caught myself doing that again too, felt like an idiot because of the rookie wasted movement. Provides more justification to work from a high port gun, but a lot of places and organizations aren't fans of that.

The fund thing is hard too. Typically when I'm not shooting as often, I spend a lot more money and new stuff to try. If I have easy access to a range or frequent classes, then I only care about the fees and ammo that I need to be able to practice.
Catching yourself when old habits creep in or when you do something not as you envisioned is humbling. When I used to compete more, I used to try to video my stages. At first, I cringe when I notice things, but then I eat my pride and just note them on things to work on and improve. Seeing yourself on video can be quite humbling.

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2018, 12:47:21 PM »
Super fun day on the range yesterday with a great bunch of like-minded folks.  Based on the forecast from Friday night, I was anticipating having to deal with thunderstorms.  Thankfully, the storms stayed away, but it ended up being a super hot and humid day.  I was pretty wiped out after the class. 

Some takeaways from the class:

1) It's always good to "test" out your equipment, including your gear, in shooting courses.  Not really a new point, but something I noticed many times yesterday.  I had moved around some stuff on my belt and found that I need to move one pouch as it would dig into my stomach here and there.  Many other shooters also had new rifles or gear and you are able to learn more about them in that environment than one would at Koko Head. 

2) When training new techniques, especially ones that require "unlearning", need to spend time doing the steps deliberately and then gradually speed up.  Even then, sometimes the old habits creep back in, but something that I have to force myself to slow down and do things deliberately as opposed to trying to speed my way through it.  When I try to speed my way through things, I often revert back to old habits or fumble it as a sort of "in between".  Slowly breaking old habits and building new ones.  But just have to give it time. 

3) Was able to try new things from other shooters' guns as well on my own gun.  Love the Geissele trigger.  The BCM grip with more vertical angle didn't really jump out at me either way.  Will likely stick with what I've got for now.  Didn't get to give the ambi safety a fair shake, but I didn't really notice the lever on the right side when shooting.  I thought it would bother me, but didn't really notice when I was shooting. 

4) It's good to have video of yourself shooting.  You are able to see for yourself what you do and lots of times you don't realize what you're doing, or not doing.  An example from yesterday was keeping the gun in your workspace for things like loading, reloading, etc.  That is something that I noticed from when I shot IPSC more, that I thought I had the gun in my workspace during reloads, but many times the gun would end up much lower.  Something that many shooters yesterday didn't realize they were doing, especially when their focus was more on shooting the course of fire than the reload itself. 

5) The AFAB on my Colt has spoiled me some.  When I was shooting another AR to try the trigger, I noticed that the muzzle was jumping a lot more, and thus the dot was jumping around a lot more.  That gun had a BCM comp, which is closer to an A2, at least relative to the AFAB.  Had to be more disciplined with body mechanics to keep the dot from jumping around as much.  Then when I went back to my gun with the AFAB, it was like the dot barely moved. 

6) I've recently been shooting with an EoTech EXPS 3-0.  Before that, I had been shooting guns with either an Aimpoint CompM4s or T-1.  When I was shooting guns with the T-1, I found that the smaller viewing window bothered me some when we were doing shooting drills that require transitioning between targets.  I had never noticed that before, so I assume it was because my eyes were now used to the EoTech.  Something I'll have to keep in mind for future range days. 

7) Need more time with the AK.  More on that in the other thread. . .

Rocky

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2018, 11:16:48 AM »
Super fun day on the range yesterday with a great bunch of like-minded folks.  Based on the forecast from Friday night, I was anticipating having to deal with thunderstorms.  Thankfully, the storms stayed away, but it ended up being a super hot and humid day.  I was pretty wiped out after the class.
 AWESOME GROUP !  :thumbsup:
Next morning was topsy-turvy, hot tub and Tylenol

Some takeaways from the class:

1) It's always good to "test" out your equipment, including your gear, in shooting courses.  Not really a new point, but something I noticed many times yesterday.  I had moved around some stuff on my belt and found that I need to move one pouch as it would dig into my stomach here and there.  Many other shooters also had new rifles or gear and you are able to learn more about them in that environment than one would at Koko Head. 
Made a slight change on belt this time and found a nice bruise on my stomach, probably because AR mag was moved more in front of me

2) When training new techniques, especially ones that require "unlearning", need to spend time doing the steps deliberately and then gradually speed up.  Even then, sometimes the old habits creep back in, but something that I have to force myself to slow down and do things deliberately as opposed to trying to speed my way through it.  When I try to speed my way through things, I often revert back to old habits or fumble it as a sort of "in between".  Slowly breaking old habits and building new ones.  But just have to give it time. 
Ditto

3) Was able to try new things from other shooters' guns as well on my own gun.  Love the Geissele trigger.  The BCM grip with more vertical angle didn't really jump out at me either way.  Will likely stick with what I've got for now.  Didn't get to give the ambi safety a fair shake, but I didn't really notice the lever on the right side when shooting.  I thought it would bother me, but didn't really notice when I was shooting. 
Installed my ambi safety at a the 45 degree position and solved my manipulation issue (when I remembered to use it as per new protocol  :crazy:)

4) It's good to have video of yourself shooting.  You are able to see for yourself what you do and lots of times you don't realize what you're doing, or not doing.  An example from yesterday was keeping the gun in your workspace for things like loading, reloading, etc.  That is something that I noticed from when I shot IPSC more, that I thought I had the gun in my workspace during reloads, but many times the gun would end up much lower.  Something that many shooters yesterday didn't realize they were doing, especially when their focus was more on shooting the course of fire than the reload itself. 
Hell, I had a hard time keeping target round count after reload !  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

5) The AFAB on my Colt has spoiled me some.  When I was shooting another AR to try the trigger, I noticed that the muzzle was jumping a lot more, and thus the dot was jumping around a lot more.  That gun had a BCM comp, which is closer to an A2, at least relative to the AFAB.  Had to be more disciplined with body mechanics to keep the dot from jumping around as much.  Then when I went back to my gun with the AFAB, it was like the dot barely moved. 
Yup, noticed that too when I had to switch to back up with out AFAB. :(

6) I've recently been shooting with an EoTech EXPS 3-0.  Before that, I had been shooting guns with either an Aimpoint CompM4s or T-1.  When I was shooting guns with the T-1, I found that the smaller viewing window bothered me some when we were doing shooting drills that require transitioning between targets.  I had never noticed that before, so I assume it was because my eyes were now used to the EoTech.  Something I'll have to keep in mind for future range days. 

7) Need more time with the AK.  More on that in the other thread. . .

    I had malfunction issue regarding poor ejection/stove piping.
Fortunately I was "2 is 1" and had a back up (but probably should have took up the offer of several other classmates to try their cool guns  :wave:)
It was a new barrel with less than 200 rounds going into class before rapid fire and heating and when I hit about 350 rounds and HOT barrel at class, started having issues
    Thought it may be a gas leak issue due to recent installation but when cleaned, found gas rings "iffy" (Knew that before the class, idiot  :grrr:) but also noticed ejector was worn down to at least 50% of new.
Replaced both and will test again.
Should have replace one at a time to verify problem but "ain't nobody got no time fo dat".
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2018, 12:11:01 PM »

    I had malfunction issue regarding poor ejection/stove piping.
Fortunately I was "2 is 1" and had a back up (but probably should have took up the offer of several other classmates to try their cool guns  :wave:)
It was a new barrel with less than 200 rounds going into class before rapid fire and heating and when I hit about 350 rounds and HOT barrel at class, started having issues
    Thought it may be a gas leak issue due to recent installation but when cleaned, found gas rings "iffy" (Knew that before the class, idiot  :grrr:) but also noticed ejector was worn down to at least 50% of new.
Replaced both and will test again.
Should have replace one at a time to verify problem but "ain't nobody got no time fo dat".

I noticed that you were having some issues.  I overheard one of your buddies commenting on your "ejection dribbling out" :crazy:  ;D

I had a second AR yesterday just in case.  I had the issue with the AFAB working it's way loose and the bolt catch in the last class.  Last thing I want is to be fighting my equipment in a class like this.  As mentioned in previous posts, my backup guns have saved many other shooters in previous classes.  Always good to have a backup for sure.  :thumbsup:

You noticed the ejector was worn down?  I would have never thought to check that part out.  There are certain parts that I check for wear here and there and the gas rings is one quick check when cleaning.  I have also been trying to replace certain parts after certain round counts as preventative maintenance.  Hopefully you've gotten the issues ironed out. 

I was cramping a little after the class and the next day, but otherwise wasn't bad.  I was definitely smoked after the class though.  It's been a while since I was that tired feeling after a day of shooting.  Shows how much that was crammed into one day. 

I'll try the 45 degree safety eventually.  I too found myself not working the safety in the new protocol.  It was less often than before though, so getting there.  But yeah, working that random mag in there was awesome.  Helped me start getting better "in tune" with the gun as well as more automatic with the reload.  Still caught myself reverting to some old habits here and there, but less. 

No big equipment wants after this class.  I guess since two items were ordered before the class have yet to arrive.  Gotta start looking to replenish the ammo stores though. 

changemyoil66

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 01:09:00 PM »
Never thought about bringing 2 guns to  a class.  This way if 1 goes down, you got a back up.  2 is 1 is right.

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 01:40:22 PM »
Never thought about bringing 2 guns to  a class.  This way if 1 goes down, you got a back up.  2 is 1 is right.
I would say maybe 20% of folks will bring backup guns to class.  I wouldn't say its a must, but definitely good to have, assuming you have a backup.  I also understand that having a backup AR may not be feasible for some. 

When I was preparing for taking classes on the mainland, having backups was highly recommended.  If your gun goes down, you're SOL.  Even if you start having problems, the backup gun will allow having it addressed in one of the breaks. 

For some local classes, I haven't brought a backup.  I did yesterday since this particular gun had issues with it in a previous class.  Otherwise, I might have gone without. 

zippz

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 01:51:31 PM »
When I plan to attend a class, I plan for backups.  Ill bring a 2nd gun, or see if I can borrow from someone, or rent one from the school if needed.  Same goes for ammo.  Ill look for stores or FFLs in the area or mail order it.  Ill usually bring a days worth of ammo on the plane just in case.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

changemyoil66

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 01:59:22 PM »
The wife and I signed up for the HDF pistol class this month.  I lost her bullet proof firing pin that I bought for the CZ P10C.  Nothing wrong with the factory one, just some report it breaking (MIM metal, same that glock uses).  But I forgot where I put the bullet proof firing pin.  So I'm going to bring her M&P9C and holster as backup.

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2018, 02:31:26 PM »
For mainland classes, I have backup guns and well as some other stuff.  It does make it tougher to travel though for the additional baggage fees and stuff you have to lug around. 

Good point on ammo.  I've been lucky to have good contacts that have helped me on ammo for all the classes that I've traveled to.  I usually try to find local shops and see what they have just in case. 

I also recommend having your guns somewhat "verified" prior to a class.  You're probably going to shoot the gun more than it has before in classes, but I've seen some people brand new guns or new stuff like optics they just put on and didn't have any idea of zero.  Most classes that I've been to will have some time to verify zero, but you don't really want to be zeroing your gun or optic for the first time.  It wastes ammo and more importantly class time.  Ideally you'd like to have shot the guns a decent amount to verify proper function and stuff. 

I have never really brought backup gear like holsters and stuff, but in local classes, I've found that it can help.  Especially more basic level classes as some might not have decent gear and they end up fighting them.  I mean you gotta use what you brought, but sometimes it can be helpful to have more purpose driven gear.  Sadly, I have to admit that I've shown up to IPSC events without a holster and luckily I was able to borrow one. 

Rocky

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 04:36:35 PM »
I noticed that you were having some issues.  I overheard one of your buddies commenting on your "ejection dribbling out" :crazy:  ;D

    Well, at least it still shoots.  ;)

   Tried to measure the difference between worn ejector and new but they are 2 different makes and  therefore not truly comparable, but there is at  least  .02 difference as far as I can meausre.
Unable to photo as I would probably need  a macro lens but the difference is obvious enough  to see by the naked eye, super obvious with a magnifying glass.
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2018, 04:44:49 PM »
Tried to measure the difference between worn ejector and new but they are 2 different makes and  therefore not truly comparable, but there is at  least  .02 difference as far as I can meausre.
Unable to photo as I would probably need  a macro lens but the difference is obvious enough  to see by the naked eye, super obvious with a magnifying glass.
Nah. No need. Just wondering how one would measure it. I’ve never removed the ejector. Looks like a royal PITA if you don’t have that specific tool for it.

Rocky

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2018, 06:07:50 AM »
Nah. No need. Just wondering how one would measure it. I’ve never removed the ejector. Looks like a royal PITA if you don’t have that specific tool for it.
There's a tool for that ?  :wacko:
Getting it off is easy, lining up for reassemble is a PITA.
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2018, 07:03:35 AM »
There's a tool for that ?  :wacko:
Getting it off is easy, lining up for reassemble is a PITA.
There are tools for everything.   ;D

I can't find it now, but it's a simpler version of what's in this video.  Basically it holds the ejector down and allows you to have two hands free for the hammer and punch. 



Brownells has a bunch of tools, but they aren't cheap.  I've never messed with the bolt.  I have gauges to check headspace, but I've never really used them.  A while back, I was told that as long as you have an upper and BCG/bolt from quality manufacturers, you should be good.  When I got my PSA upper (I would say decent quality manufacturer) and a BCG that I got from a group buy from an unknown manufacturer, but supposed to be good components, it worked out ok.  Should I have checked headspace? Probably should have to be safe.  That thought was in the back of my mind first time I shot the gun. 

drck1000

Re: Firearms Training - Sharing Experience
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2018, 07:14:44 AM »
Another part of the class was discussion of sling use and fitting.  I had been looking into trying different sling setups for this class and actually had a new sling ready to test out for the AR and had the same sling on the AK. 

Prior to this class, I had been using the Redback One sling, which I do like and have used for many years.  That said, I am open to trying other things.  The RB1 sling is two point and is meant to wear as a necklace, while many slings are meant to primarily be worn with "arm in".  Was watching some videos of folks explain the use and fitting of their slings.  Frank Proctor, Kyle Lamb, etc.  My first sling for classes was the Vickers VCAS padded.  I think it's a good sling, but the padding messed me up.  An opinion that another shooter in the class shared.  I know many like them, but just not for me.

The class had a short discussion on sling fitting, which isn't covered a lot.  Unfortunately, I got caught up with shooting and wasn't able to try my second sling, which is the Ferro Concepts Slingster, with my AR.  I tried it on my AK, but I didn't shoot my AK enough to evaluate it that well. 

Anyways, another example of needing to try for oneself.  What sling setup that felt fine dry firing can impact your shooting, which is what I learned about the VCAS in a previous carbine course.