Stand your ground? (Read 1229 times)

hvybarrels

Stand your ground?
« on: September 23, 2021, 04:55:19 PM »
Quote
“After carefully reviewing all of the evidence in this case, including witness statements, we determined that Gerald Waialae, the deceased, was the initial and unprovoked aggressor in the road rage incident. We further determined that we did not have enough evidence to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suspect acted in self-defense.”

Steven Alm
Something tells me the UNNAMED stabber must have high level political connections.

Does anyone know where Hunter Biden was on the evening of the incident?

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/09/22/honolulu-prosecutors-office-decides-take-no-further-action-deadly-road-rage-incident-h-1/
Anything that can be destroyed by truth will be destroyed by truth.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2021, 06:00:47 PM »
Where we are as a society:

Quote
Megan Kau, a defense attorney and former prosecutor not associated with the case, was
surprised to hear the development because Waialae was unarmed.

“If the suspect had a knife on the person and the victim did not have any other type of weapon,
it would be extremely surprising for the government to find that the defendant or the suspect
was acting in self-defense,” she said.


Prosecutors, however, said Waialae was 6-foot-8, weighed about 300 pounds, and appeared to
be heavily intoxicated
at the time of the stabbing.

They also said that witnesses reported Waialae intentionally rammed the suspect’s car while driving
on the freeway and had a violent criminal history with multiple felony convictions.

But Marilyn Waialae says her two teenage daughters said the other man started the incident.

According to the lawyer, the attacker was the VICTIM, and the defendant/stabber was the SUSPECT.  She neglected to factor in ANY of the actual facts of the case while only focusing on who was armed and who wasn't.  Like a famous comedian once pontificated:  If someone has a knife, and all you have is a hand with some skin on it, you might need to rethink your next move!

The victim was 6' 8" tall and weighed 300 lbs.  But because he didn't have a knife, he's the victim -- even if he "allegedly" instigated the fight by RAMMING the defendant's car.

Then there's the double-hearsay "witness account":  The wife SAYS her 2 teen daughters SAID the other man (defendant) started the incident.

I believe when 2 people are in mutual combat, one can't cry victim (legally) just because they lost.

Sounds to me like someone shouldn't have been driving in the first place.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

QUIETShooter

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2021, 06:41:50 PM »
I guess we'll never know for sure about the how's and why's this happened.

Strange that the knife guy fled the scene.  Why the f**k did he do that?  Kinda raises eyebrows. ::)

I also find it creepy, strange even, of the photo of the family all smiles while portraying the deceased in front of them.  WTF?
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2021, 06:57:42 PM »
I guess we'll never know for sure about the how's and why's this happened.

Strange that the knife guy fled the scene.  Why the f**k did he do that?  Kinda raises eyebrows. ::)

I also find it creepy, strange even, of the photo of the family all smiles while portraying the deceased in front of them.  WTF?

Most people I know who flee the scene do it because they are drunk.  In this case, maybe he was afraid to remain there before the police arrived.  Could be a friend or relative following in another car or driving by.  Could be he had drugs on him/in the car.  Impossible to guess what made him decide to leave the scene.

Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

changemyoil66

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 07:22:46 PM »
Knife guy is black.

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eyeeatingfish

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2021, 08:02:24 PM »
Just theorizing here but I could imagine a situation where potentially all the boxes were checked to make it a justified use of deadly force. One would have to be that the guy who got stabbed was placing him in danger of serious injury or death. Another would be that he didn't have a safe avenue of retreat. Another key one would be that he didn't start the altercation.

If the suspect's car wouldn't start and he was on the freeway with load of cars flying by he may not have had a safe avenue to retreat. I don't know what the big guy did to him but potentially he could have done something which placed the stabber in danger of serious injury.

I can't imagine the guy is so connected to just get away with it that easy. I can imagine that maybe there were problems with witnesses that would make the case impossible to win in court. So for example if your key witness was proven to have lied during the investigation then in court the prosecutors might not be able to prove the charge. Just because charges are dropped doesn't mean a murder didn't happen, it might just mean the case couldn't be proven.

changemyoil66

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 08:14:15 PM »
Left out of the news is waialae was intoxicated and his daughters arent reliable. Other non relative witnesses said he was the aggressor.

Then its how the other guy articulated why he used a knife. SYG says u must retreat if possible to "complete safety".


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hvybarrels

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2021, 08:28:21 AM »
Both guys were driving aggressively/banging cars.

Both guys stopped their cars and got out for a confrontation.

The stabber drove away, proving he could have avoided the confrontation.

The stabber did not turn himself in.

He not only fled the scene, he fled the state!

That's a crime in and of itself, but apparently Steve Alm has better things to do.

Context:

Hawaii has no stand your ground law.
Even if someone broke into your house and you shot them, you are going to jail no matter what. -HPD

Conclusion:

This guy was connected
Anything that can be destroyed by truth will be destroyed by truth.

ren

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2021, 11:26:39 AM »
Something tells me the UNNAMED stabber must have high level political connections.

Does anyone know where Hunter Biden was on the evening of the incident?

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/09/22/honolulu-prosecutors-office-decides-take-no-further-action-deadly-road-rage-incident-h-1/

could have been someone's son...
Deeds Not Words

changemyoil66

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2021, 12:49:45 PM »
Both guys were driving aggressively/banging cars.

Both guys stopped their cars and got out for a confrontation.

The stabber drove away, proving he could have avoided the confrontation.

The stabber did not turn himself in.

He not only fled the scene, he fled the state!

That's a crime in and of itself, but apparently Steve Alm has better things to do.

Context:

Hawaii has no stand your ground law.
Even if someone broke into your house and you shot them, you are going to jail no matter what. -HPD

Conclusion:

This guy was connected

Fleeing the scene of a car accident is illegal.  But is fleeing the scene of an act of self defense illegal?

Is failing to report an act of self defense action illegal?

Then if you were never notified, is not turning yourself in illegal?  I mean there would be a warrant out, but you were never notified.

These are not rhetorical questions, but serious ones. Would the 5th apply to the first 2?

Also: "I stopped my car and got out to talk to the other guy, then he started to attack me".


HPD"s SOP is to arrest. And if no charges are brought, then you are released 2 days later pending investigation.  So since he was off island and they couldn't find him, there is no SOP to arrest him. 

And if none of the above are illegal, then maybe this guy is on to something.

changemyoil66

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2021, 12:51:13 PM »
could have been someone's son...

Or Alm did an OJ.  Prior to OJ being found not guilty, the Rodney Kings cops were found innocent. There was a documentary on the History/Discovery Channel that mentioned 1 theory was that OJ's not guilty was giving back to the black community.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2021, 01:12:30 PM »
Fleeing the scene of a car accident is illegal.  But is fleeing the scene of an act of self defense illegal?

Is failing to report an act of self defense action illegal?

Then if you were never notified, is not turning yourself in illegal?  I mean there would be a warrant out, but you were never notified.

These are not rhetorical questions, but serious ones. Would the 5th apply to the first 2?

Also: "I stopped my car and got out to talk to the other guy, then he started to attack me".


HPD"s SOP is to arrest. And if no charges are brought, then you are released 2 days later pending investigation.  So since he was off island and they couldn't find him, there is no SOP to arrest him. 

And if none of the above are illegal, then maybe this guy is on to something.

If the witnesses swore to the investigating Cops that the stabber instigated the road rage incident, then attacked unprovoked, that's a crime.

Since the cars were involved in a collision, it's a crime to flee the scene.

So, there are at least 2 alleged crimes involved.  If he fled the state in order to avoid the Cops, that could be construed as obstruction -- a 3rd crime.

As for avoiding the charges, he may have had a really good story and no admissible evidence to refute his version of the events -- or the evidence corroborated his story because it was true.

He could have handled the post-stabbing better, but if the stabbing itself was justified (drunk 300 lb 6'8" road-raging man), then the aftermath could be explained away as PTSD-related or shock.  Not everyone is thinking clearly when they experience something like that. 

Why did he leave the scene AND the state?  Maybe he believed the big man survived and would come after him?  Maybe his family would come after him?  Retaliation for stabbing someone isn't a stretch.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2021, 07:53:29 PM »
If the witnesses swore to the investigating Cops that the stabber instigated the road rage incident, then attacked unprovoked, that's a crime.

Since the cars were involved in a collision, it's a crime to flee the scene.

So, there are at least 2 alleged crimes involved.  If he fled the state in order to avoid the Cops, that could be construed as obstruction -- a 3rd crime.

As for avoiding the charges, he may have had a really good story and no admissible evidence to refute his version of the events -- or the evidence corroborated his story because it was true.

He could have handled the post-stabbing better, but if the stabbing itself was justified (drunk 300 lb 6'8" road-raging man), then the aftermath could be explained away as PTSD-related or shock.  Not everyone is thinking clearly when they experience something like that. 

Why did he leave the scene AND the state?  Maybe he believed the big man survived and would come after him?  Maybe his family would come after him?  Retaliation for stabbing someone isn't a stretch.

False reporting as I understand it can be difficult to prove because you don't just have to prove that what the witness said was incorrect, you have to prove that the witness knew it was incorrect. So a false statement that was not done to deceive and based on a misunderstanding or a poor perception would not be enough to prove. But a witness can be telling what they believe to be the truth and still be unreliable if it could be shown their memory was severely hampered.

He could articulate that he fled the scene because he was in fear but that defense would only work if he turned himself in later however leaving the state wouldn't constitute obstruction. A person accused of a crime is not legally obligated to volunteer himself over to cops. If he destroyed evidence then that would be a different story.

I am pretty surprised by the decision not to charge, it would seem this prosecutor has charged people for less. But without knowing the details of the case it is hard to judge. I wonder if the case can be made public if a decision to not file charges were made? I am guessing it wouldn't readily be opened since theoretically charges could be filed later if more evidence came about.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2021, 09:55:02 PM »
False reporting as I understand it can be difficult to prove because you don't just have to prove that what the witness said was incorrect, you have to prove that the witness knew it was incorrect. So a false statement that was not done to deceive and based on a misunderstanding or a poor perception would not be enough to prove. But a witness can be telling what they believe to be the truth and still be unreliable if it could be shown their memory was severely hampered.

He could articulate that he fled the scene because he was in fear but that defense would only work if he turned himself in later however leaving the state wouldn't constitute obstruction. A person accused of a crime is not legally obligated to volunteer himself over to cops. If he destroyed evidence then that would be a different story.

I am pretty surprised by the decision not to charge, it would seem this prosecutor has charged people for less. But without knowing the details of the case it is hard to judge. I wonder if the case can be made public if a decision to not file charges were made? I am guessing it wouldn't readily be opened since theoretically charges could be filed later if more evidence came about.

I never said anyone lied to the Cops intentionally.  Just that the Cops may have only gotten that "side" (narrative?) of the story before getting his or any 3rd party witness statements. 

As for leaving the scene of the car collision, I might have to look that one up.  As long as both drivers stop and have an opportunity to exchange information, they aren't required to wait on the police.  That might be different if there are injuries.  Once the stabber was engaged in a fight, I imagine any thoughts of exchanging insurance information flew out the proverbial window!

I also think there's much more to this story.  As far as no charges, I think the law allows you to use weapons to stop an attacker, even an unarmed one -- especially if he's that large and you're a fraction of his size.  The dead guy got more than he expected, but that doesn't make it a crime.

I'm wondering if there were any traffic or dash cams recording the altercation up to and including the stabbing.  If so, that could have gone a long way toward corroborating his story for prosecutors.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

changemyoil66

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2021, 10:19:06 PM »
Deadly force if 1 "believes" its necessary. So articulation of why is key.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2021, 10:40:52 PM »
Deadly force if 1 "believes" its necessary. So articulation of why is key.

Cop:  What happened?

Me: I was being attacked, and I used that force I felt was necessary to stop him from killing me.
While I intend to cooperate fully with your investigation, I do not wish to answer any more questions until I've consulted with an attorney.


I got my side of the story out there in summary format, and I avoided burying myself by inadvertently saying something I should not have.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2021, 07:32:00 PM »
I never said anyone lied to the Cops intentionally.

I know you didn't, I was just bringing of more information about the crime of false reporting for context.

Quote
I also think there's much more to this story.  As far as no charges, I think the law allows you to use weapons to stop an attacker, even an unarmed one -- especially if he's that large and you're a fraction of his size.  The dead guy got more than he expected, but that doesn't make it a crime.

I'm wondering if there were any traffic or dash cams recording the altercation up to and including the stabbing.  If so, that could have gone a long way toward corroborating his story for prosecutors.

I too suspect that there is more to the story than we know. Aside from some sort of corruption, the only thing I could think is that the actual evidence showed he acted very reasonably in stabbing the guy. Though I suppose if some cop made some real dumb mistake he could have screwed up the case as well

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2021, 11:14:58 PM »
I know you didn't, I was just bringing of more information about the crime of false reporting for context.

I too suspect that there is more to the story than we know. Aside from some sort of corruption, the only thing I could think is that the actual evidence showed he acted very reasonably in stabbing the guy. Though I suppose if some cop made some real dumb mistake he could have screwed up the case as well

There's no evidence presented saying WHY he was not charged.  More often than not is lack of evidence, lack of credible witnesses and lack of motive that would contradict a self defense claim.

The family of the drunken 300 lb 6'8" driver who was playing bumper cars at who knows what speeds are of course going to take his side.  Since the stabbee is no longer able to testify, all evidence against the stabber is hearsay or based on eye witness perception and memory.

Road rage should never result in a death, but too often it does.  Such a stupid game to play.
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

hvybarrels

Re: Stand your ground?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2021, 09:28:51 AM »
could have been someone's son...

Or possibly a leader in the violent wing of the Democratic party aka BLM/Antifa

Apparently those guys are immune from prosecution anywhere there is a George Soros bankrolled justice system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raz_Simone

Anything that can be destroyed by truth will be destroyed by truth.