Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags? (Read 601 times)

Begle1

Can anybody help me regarding not just the word of the law but if there is any case law or enforcement policy regarding the below situations?

1) Is it kosher to transport a gun in any "lockable rigid container", such as a tool box, telescope case, brief case, Pelican case, tuba case with a locking latch, etc?
My understanding has been that you could either use purpose-made soft case/ scabbard, or anything rigid as long as it was lockable. But I've recently been challenged on this.

2) What does "lockable" mean? The law doesn't say "locked"... So do you need a lock in your pocket that could wrap around the case if need be? Or does it count if you have such a lock at home? Or does it mean that it better have built-in lock hasps?

3) Can a loaded magazine, loose ammo, or a box of ammo be in the same case as an unloaded gun? Does it make a difference if the gun is in one compartment of a case, and the ammo in another compartment?

I have heard so much lore and legend regarding these questions that I don't know what I don't know anymore.

If any of this varies by county, if there are police enforcement policies that vary by department, I'm interested in Maui county in particular.

zippz

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2024, 05:11:02 PM »
Transporting guns hasn't changed, has to be covered.  Soft case, cardboard box, etc.  However if you leave the gun unattended, like stop at a restroom going to the range, it has to be in a secure impact resistant  locked case.  Something not easily opened.  The example TSA uses is something that can't be pried open with just your hands to get the gun out.  So that's probably a safe bet.  You never know if you'll have to leave the guns unattended for whatever reason, so best to play it safe with a good locked case.


Loaded mags can in the case, but cannot be loaded in the gun.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 05:18:05 PM by zippz »
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Begle1

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2024, 05:37:49 PM »
Transporting guns hasn't changed, has to be covered.  Soft case, cardboard box, etc.  However if you leave the gun unattended, like stop at a restroom going to the range, it has to be in a secure impact resistant  locked case.  Something not easily opened. 

To be clear, I'm not talking about flying with guns, just driving around with them to/ from the place of use or place of sojourn.

I don't recall Hawaii law drawing any distinctions between a gun being attended or not.
Is there official text that talks about this?

From what I recall from my safety class, the instructor said you couldn't stop at a restroom or gas station or even drive-through with guns in the car as those are not "places of sojourn".

You bring up a fourth question I've heard different things about:

4) Can a gun or ammo be left in a car?

My interpretation has been this is fine as long as the car is somewhere you can legally have a gun.


Another confusing thing is how guns used by the movie industry seem to have different rules for transport and storage. I've seen people cite this language not realizing it was only pertinent to film making.

zippz

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2024, 05:48:19 PM »
To be clear, I'm not talking about flying with guns, just driving around with them to/ from the place of use or place of sojourn.

I don't recall Hawaii law drawing any distinctions between a gun being attended or not.
Is there official text that talks about this?

From what I recall from my safety class, the instructor said you couldn't stop at a restroom or gas station or even drive-through with guns in the car as those are not "places of sojourn".

You bring up a fourth question I've heard different things about:

4) Can a gun or ammo be left in a car?

My interpretation has been this is fine as long as the car is somewhere you can legally have a gun.


Another confusing thing is how guns used by the movie industry seem to have different rules for transport and storage. I've seen people cite this language not realizing it was only pertinent to film making.

Leaving guns unattended https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0009_0003.htm
By the letter of the law, you're not supposed to stop going to/from the range.  Realistically, you're not getting prosecuted for stopping to use the restroom or getting gas.

Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

changemyoil66

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2024, 06:09:14 PM »
Theres the federal gun free school zone law. This means no guns within 1000ft of a school. 

Exceptions are if you have that states issued CCW.

The gun is in a locked container/case.  So even though HI law doesn't require this, federal law does.  And on Oahu, you're prob gonna pass within 1000ft of multiple schools on the way to anywhere.

Begle1

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2024, 09:09:06 PM »
Theres the federal gun free school zone law.

Federal law is that you can't have a gun within 1000' of a school even if it is in a locked container?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2024, 11:14:49 PM »
Federal law is that you can't have a gun within 1000' of a school even if it is in a locked container?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2024, 08:25:50 AM »
Federal law is that you can't have a gun within 1000' of a school even if it is in a locked container?

It's allowed if it's in a locked container or you're CCWing with that states issued CCW.  But you still cannot enter school property, even the parking lot unless you have permission from say the principal or like authority figure of the school.

J Hara has a sign up about this because they're across the street of a school and the cardboard box the rifle comes in isn't sufficient to leave the store with.

Begle1

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2024, 10:55:11 AM »
Thanks guys, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding:

1) State Law: Unloaded firearms can be carried in "a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm."
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0023.htm
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0024.htm
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0025.htm


I've always interpreted this to mean a hard-sided case of any design, or a soft-sided case that is specifically manufactured as a gun case. It doesn't sound like it has ever been enough of an issue for their to be any official clarification?

Ammo has the same transport requirements; woe to the guy who has a jar of 22lr spill in their back seat.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0027.htm

Federal Law: You can't have an unlocked gun within 1000' of a school. This alone means it's probably a good idea to always transport your guns in a locked case.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#q_2_A

2) I don't know where I picked "lockable" up from, I don't see the word in section 134 of the HRS.

3) There isn't any law, policy or precedent in Hawaii that says an unloaded gun can't be in the same storage container and compartment as ammo or loaded magazines. Nobody has ever gotten in trouble in Hawaii for this. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

4) A firearm left in a vehicle needs to be in a locked storage that is out-of-site from outside of the vehicle, and not a trunk or glovebox. Has there been any clarification on this language? Does the "safe storage depository" need to be bolted to the vehicle? Or does a locked Pelican case with a beach towel over it suffice?
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0009_0003.htm






changemyoil66

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2024, 12:04:06 PM »
For #4, the safe doesn't have to be bolted to the car.  Just cannot be in view as someone walks by.  So, a beach towel or under the front seat is sufficient.

For #1, you're right, the federal law makes HRS moot about not having to lock your firearm in a case.  Which is why I brought it up above.  HI is so densely populated, that you will probably pass within 1000ft of a school.

For #2, refer to federal law.

For #3, there is no HI or federal law about storing ammo separately from the gun.  State law wise, the gun just cannot be loaded.  This includes a round in the chamber.  You're also correct about any spilled ammo under HI law.  Which is why my range bag is only for the range.  Often there's a round or 2 inside the bag.  There was a guy at the BLM protest wearing a plate carrier who was busted for this.  He had no CCW, and there was ammo found on his carrier.  I'm going to assume it was a loose round because why would someone carry loaded mags on their plate carrier at a protest and no gun.  It would just be added weight.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2024, 03:16:57 PM »
Thanks guys, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding:

1) State Law: Unloaded firearms can be carried in "a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm."

That's the catch-all clause.  People use the manufacturer's cardboard shipping box, USPS shipping boxes, backpacks, pistol rugs, and even garbage bags to transport their guns to/from HPD.  Some new arrivals have shown up to register with the guns tossed in a cart.  Officers brought them out a Hefty bag to put them in -- all good!
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0023.htm
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0024.htm
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0025.htm


I've always interpreted this to mean a hard-sided case of any design, or a soft-sided case that is specifically manufactured as a gun case. It doesn't sound like it has ever been enough of an issue for their to be any official clarification?

Ammo has the same transport requirements; woe to the guy who has a jar of 22lr spill in their back seat.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0027.htm
Like you said, ammo is the same.  Any equivalent container is fine.  I.E. Don't walk around with a handful of loose 9mm rounds.

Federal Law: You can't have an unlocked gun within 1000' of a school. This alone means it's probably a good idea to always transport your guns in a locked case.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#q_2_A

2) I don't know where I picked "lockable" up from, I don't see the word in section 134 of the HRS.

3) There isn't any law, policy or precedent in Hawaii that says an unloaded gun can't be in the same storage container and compartment as ammo or loaded magazines. Nobody has ever gotten in trouble in Hawaii for this. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Unloaded means just that.  You can have a 1911 and fully loaded mag in the same case during transport as long as the gun is unloaded.

4) A firearm left in a vehicle needs to be in a locked storage that is out-of-site from outside of the vehicle, and not a trunk or glovebox. Has there been any clarification on this language? Does the "safe storage depository" need to be bolted to the vehicle? Or does a locked Pelican case with a beach towel over it suffice?
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0009_0003.htm
Common sense should guide you.  A high value item like a firearm should be protected from theft with extraordinary methods and care.  If you have kids in the car routinely, it's even more important to have a proper locking container even though you are in the car (can't always watch what they are doing while driving).  When i travel, I use a very heavy bike lock cable and steel shank locks to secure my pelican in the trunk to the hinges or body panel cutouts.  if it were my car, I'd permanently attach the container to the vehicle, probably with a bracket that lets me remove the container easier than crawling under the floorboard or disassembling a center console. 

AFAIK, there are 2 sets of rules: one for your CCW pistol, and one for guns you are merely transporting unloaded from point A to B.
 Best to not get confused trying to apply CCW rules to other firearms in the car.

Also common sense -- if you're away from the vehicle leaving the gun unattended, obviously you need extraordinary means to secure it.  if you are not talking about your CCW firearm, then the Places to Keep laws kick in.  You should not be leaving a non-CCW firearm in the vehicle unattended at all.  if you're at one of the approved places to keep, you are probably going to have it with you -- gunsmith, gun shop,  range, HPD, etc.  If you are not at an approved place to keep, (1) you're already in violation of the law, so the container type is irrelevant, and (2) it's best to not set yourself up for trouble, such as allowing your firearm to be stolen in under a minute while you are breaking the places to keep law. 

"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2024, 03:55:39 PM »
"Also common sense -- if you're away from the vehicle leaving the gun unattended, obviously you need extraordinary means to secure it.  if you are not talking about your CCW firearm,. "

Here's a though. Do gun free zones allow criminals an opportunity to steal a gun.  As in, the gun would have been on the person, but now they had no choice but to leave it in the car.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Law/ policy regarding transport containers and loaded mags?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2024, 05:14:42 PM »
"Also common sense -- if you're away from the vehicle leaving the gun unattended, obviously you need extraordinary means to secure it.  if you are not talking about your CCW firearm,. "

Here's a though. Do gun free zones allow criminals an opportunity to steal a gun.  As in, the gun would have been on the person, but now they had no choice but to leave it in the car.

Yes.  Empirically proven.

There have been many reports that gun thefts often occur around courthouses and other government buildings primarily in areas where carry is common.

Why rob banks?  Because that's where the money is.

Why break into cars parked near gun free zones?  Same reasoning.

Quote
Firearm thefts from vehicles have risen more than 25% over the past decade
https://ammo.com/articles/stolen-gun-statistics

Quote
The vast majority of firearms stolen from private citizens are pistols left in cars.
Cities in Tennessee and South Carolina have experienced the highest number
of firearms reported stolen from vehicles in recent years.

Guns Stolen in Cars Fast Facts:

  • 80% of firearms stolen in Nashville, TN, were stolen from vehicles (1,014) - 2023
  • 2,441 firearms stolen from vehicles in 2022 Shelby County, TN
  • Hamilton County, TN, has been issuing warnings for years due to the increase in
    firearms stolen from unlocked vehicles
  • ⅓ of firearms stolen in Columbia, SC, were reportedly taken from unlocked vehicles
« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 05:23:35 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall