But how many will follow orders because it's legal (written as law).

Here in Hawaii? 100%.

Surprise surprise.  NRA press release on recent shootings. Suggest red flag or more laws.

Compared to GOA who wants HR38 (national reciprocity) passed instead. 

Oh the diff between GOA and the NRA.

Here is an active shooter who was prevented by a family member who saw something and took action.
Now in this case he wasn't reported through a red flag type law because the grandma was able to gain compliance however had the guy refused her suggestion she would have had to resort to something akin to a red-flag type law to intervene.

https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/484614006-Police-Grandmother-thwarted-mass-shooting/?fbclid=IwAR3riZDaykTMpRy5edS5g6JZ_0EjKap-TsZbHjBlUuPi0NeVglpKY7h_URo

Here is an active shooter who was prevented by a family member who saw something and took action.
Now in this case he wasn't reported through a red flag type law because the grandma was able to gain compliance however had the guy refused her suggestion she would have had to resort to something akin to a red-flag type law to intervene.

https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/484614006-Police-Grandmother-thwarted-mass-shooting/?fbclid=IwAR3riZDaykTMpRy5edS5g6JZ_0EjKap-TsZbHjBlUuPi0NeVglpKY7h_URo

He was charged with lying about something when buying the gun.  That's a crime.  Vs. someones angry ex who wants custody and claims he threatened to harm her.

So PD shows up at his hotel due to tip from grandma.  He is not under arrest yet, nor did they confiscate any of his property.  Due to tip, they run his name and find out he cannot possess any firearms/lied.  At that moment, they see firearms in his room and confiscate.  News doesn't say where he lied and what info he lied about, so the above is all speculation by myself.  Did he lie to officers while they were interviewing him, or on 4473 form?  Also did he admit to officers what he told his grandma?

So red flag doesn't come into play in this situation.  Had he purchased everything legally, and didn't admit to anything once PD showed up, then they could do nothing.

Interesting social media post happening on red flag law for gun pages.

"The same people who report your post will be the same ones calling the tip line on you"

Interesting social media post happening on red flag law for gun pages.

"The same people who report your post will be the same ones calling the tip line on you"

Lots of people will refuse to report potentially dangerous people to authorities unless they have the assurance of anonymity.

Anonymity breeds abuse of the system.

Not really a solution.  More of a "small piece of the puzzle" that might be better than doing nothing. 

As I said many times here, red flag laws are UNNECESSARY, since most things people would report are already reportable.  What changes with red flag laws is the law enforcement and punishment functions being initiated without due process-- i.e. the judicial process that protects individual liberties and rights.

There are some cases where red flag laws may work that existing laws won't.  A fired worker that's extremely disgruntled tells their wife they're going to kill everyone at work next week and shows her the rifle he just bought.  Existing laws won't cover it since he's not making a threat to the actual person and there's no conspiracy.

The employer could hire armed security or employees have CCW but those are reducing the threat, not eliminating it.  Of course he could just firebomb the building if his guns are taken away.  That's why we need to institutionalize them  and fully fund mental health treatment.

The NRA plan does have its merits on narrowly focusing it, strong due process, punishments for abuse, and mental health treatment which addresses a lot of our fears and prevent Innocent gun owners from being affected.  Though I highly doubt abusers of the law would be prosecuted.  It may be a good time to tie CCW into it.

He was charged with lying about something when buying the gun.  That's a crime.  Vs. someones angry ex who wants custody and claims he threatened to harm her.

So PD shows up at his hotel due to tip from grandma.  He is not under arrest yet, nor did they confiscate any of his property.  Due to tip, they run his name and find out he cannot possess any firearms/lied.  At that moment, they see firearms in his room and confiscate.  News doesn't say where he lied and what info he lied about, so the above is all speculation by myself.  Did he lie to officers while they were interviewing him, or on 4473 form?  Also did he admit to officers what he told his grandma?

So red flag doesn't come into play in this situation.  Had he purchased everything legally, and didn't admit to anything once PD showed up, then they could do nothing.

The charge was "inaccurate address information" on the 4473. I wonder if grandma thought the grandson was going to jail for 5 years when she talked to the cops? My understanding was the grandson went to a medical facility seeking help and then the cops searched his hotel room.

He was charged with lying about something when buying the gun.  That's a crime.  Vs. someones angry ex who wants custody and claims he threatened to harm her.

So PD shows up at his hotel due to tip from grandma.  He is not under arrest yet, nor did they confiscate any of his property.  Due to tip, they run his name and find out he cannot possess any firearms/lied.  At that moment, they see firearms in his room and confiscate.  News doesn't say where he lied and what info he lied about, so the above is all speculation by myself.  Did he lie to officers while they were interviewing him, or on 4473 form?  Also did he admit to officers what he told his grandma?

So red flag doesn't come into play in this situation.  Had he purchased everything legally, and didn't admit to anything once PD showed up, then they could do nothing.

Yes, he was charged with lying on the federal form, he put an old address on the form. He listed an address of an uncle he used to live with but had moved out. He committed a crime and got caught but that is not what prevented the shooting. The ATF only found out the violation after they began investigating based on what the grandmother told them.

His grandma convinced him to let her take him to the hospital to get help, she is the one who intervened. Now in this case a red flag law, if there was one, didn't come into play because he was compliant and he accepted help. But what if he had refused the grandmother's suggestion to go to the hospital? A red flag law could allow the grandmother to go to court and report her observations to the authorities and get the help needed. Without a red flag law there isn't much cops could do and the shooting would have likely happened. If he was not compliant that is where a red flag law comes into play.

There are some cases where red flag laws may work that existing laws won't.  A fired worker that's extremely disgruntled tells their wife they're going to kill everyone at work next week and shows her the rifle he just bought.  Existing laws won't cover it since he's not making a threat to the actual person and there's no conspiracy.

The employer could hire armed security or employees have CCW but those are reducing the threat, not eliminating it.  Of course he could just firebomb the building if his guns are taken away.  That's why we need to institutionalize them  and fully fund mental health treatment.

The NRA plan does have its merits on narrowly focusing it, strong due process, punishments for abuse, and mental health treatment which addresses a lot of our fears and prevent Innocent gun owners from being affected.  Though I highly doubt abusers of the law would be prosecuted.  It may be a good time to tie CCW into it.

A good example though a threat told to a third party can still be prosecuted in some situations. However there are still serious gaps in existing law, times when there are serious red flags but with no real way of getting the appropriate authorities involved. A red flag type law is a tool whereby a person exhibiting all these "red flags" can't slip through the cracks as easily. Cops have no way of forcing an individual to get a mental health evaluation unless they are exhibiting signs of danger at the time they come across the individual.

I think the NRA and other gun rights situations need to participate in red flag laws so that they can ensure due process is protected. They can sit out and resist but the laws are getting passed anyway so better to join and ensure protections exist in the red flag laws. And as you point out maybe we can get CCW in there too.

One thing I think needs to be included is that if there is enough cause to take away the person's guns then we need to be actually confining them for evaluation. If there are enough red flags to suggest the person isn't safe to have guns then they aren't safe enough to be out walking around either.

Abusers could be prosecuted however prosecution would be difficult due to the nature of the allegations being made. To prosecute someone for abusing the system with false reports the prosecutor would have to be able to prove that the person knowingly gave false information to authorities. This is true for any type of false reporting prosecution.

Ben Shapiro's take on the Red Flag bill

https://youtu.be/dmqgXvlLVB4?t=1995

I posted this in the general thread but its relevant to here so I am reporting it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-yellow-light-for-red-flag-laws-11565132144

Good points on how the media fuels hate and violence.  I don't advocate for restricting 1A rights rather I'd want society to push for voluntary compliance.

I don't think red flag laws are the solution, but rather a band aid to deflect blame on media and society.

Ben Shapiro's take on the Red Flag bill

https://youtu.be/dmqgXvlLVB4?t=1995

So all we gotta do is trust everyone we know so they don't make a false report.  Like how ex gf's/wives never file false TRO's to gain leverage during a custody battle.

Oh let's also not forget that guy in WA. He was inside his home with a pistol on his hip.  Through his own window, he looked at his neighbors in a weird way.  PD came to his home to confiscate his guns.  IIRC, a gun battle happened and he was killed.

So all we gotta do is trust everyone we know so they don't make a false report.  Like how ex gf's/wives never file false TRO's to gain leverage during a custody battle.

Oh let's also not forget that guy in WA. He was inside his home with a pistol on his hip.  Through his own window, he looked at his neighbors in a weird way.  PD came to his home to confiscate his guns.  IIRC, a gun battle happened and he was killed.

The upcoming Congressional report on "mass public shootings" and "red flag laws" will show that one "commonality" sufficient to enact a "red flag confiscation" will be "looking at people in a weird way".

Our bigger problem now it seems is that the GOP and Trump are on the Red Flag bandwagon. It won't matter how much of our voice is out there if these asshats decide to vote "their conscience". Which is code for my wallet got fatter and we don't want you little people to have the ability to rise against us elite power players.

If you read Trumps statement on El Paso and Dayton, he is signaling that he would sign a Nationwaide Red Flag bill under some innocuous acronymic naming convention. And with people like Dan Crenshaw saying we need one, it may be on its way. I don't see a ban on firearms as that will just overturn the apple cart, but "we can live with protecting people". The slippery slope is where does it start and end. No defined methods or time frames on the ERPOs. No due process. It starts small and becomes a giant mess.

Lets also not forget that depending on which judge a complainant sees is how it will affect whether to confiscate or not.  How many judges in liberal states made a ruling on something Trump did, only to be overturned later.

How many judges will rule in favor of confiscation because they're overzealous or don't want to be blamed later if something does happen?  But same judges give out lenient sentences to repeat criminals.  Red flag is nothing more than trying to control the people.

Yay!  Who's in?




HI- Oahu August Recess Rally
Hawaii State Capitol
415 S Beretania St
Honolulu, HI 96813

7.3 mi away
When:   Saturday, August 17, 11:00 AM

Join Moms Demand Action in Hawaii for our August Recess Rally to call upon our US Senate to bring universal background checks and red flags law up for a vote in the Senate. More details to come soon but please RSVP to stay updated. Everyone is encouraged to wear red and bring their homemade signs!

Yay!  Who's in?




HI- Oahu August Recess Rally
Hawaii State Capitol
415 S Beretania St
Honolulu, HI 96813

7.3 mi away
When:   Saturday, August 17, 11:00 AM

Join Moms Demand Action in Hawaii for our August Recess Rally to call upon our US Senate to bring universal background checks and red flags law up for a vote in the Senate. More details to come soon but please RSVP to stay updated. Everyone is encouraged to wear red and bring their homemade signs!

I think I am free next saturday. Hit me up and I will go with you if I can.