I knew we had a rds thread. I searched in tools. No focus.

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Focus more on getting a RDS pistol and training.  Less on comparing how you shoot to fruits and balls. . . 

But seriously, depending on when the EPS full size comes back in stock. I will likely have at least one RMR-06 available. 

I pick up my 43x with milled slide today.  Already have the EPS Carry in hand, so ready to go there. 

***MODS, PLEASE MOVE THIS TO THE TOOLS SUB FORUM. Thanks.

So I'm watching more and more RDs vids. But the issue is that most of them are like 3-5 years old. Which IDK how much of their info still holds true all these years later.  Like the RMR  has been around for that long, with no huge updates so the "Should I RDS my pistol" vids are all very old.

The comparison vids are newer since new stuff does come out.  Most of the zeroing vids are quite old. But 1 stuck out which is why I'm posting about the time here. Sage Dynamics had a OG vid and then another one to amend it some time later, but this 2nd vid is still 2 years old.  It's about zeroing. He mentions zero at 25 from bench, but confirm with no bench. As the zero can change.  Then you have the newer vids mention zeroing at 10yrds is OK. Which makes me wonder was 25 the go to for RDS zero 5 years ago, but now that more info and learning is done, 10 is fine.  And like Jedi mentions the diff from a 10yrd zero at 25rds is 0.71 inches.  "If that matters, then you're living life too hard".

Some things that have held true from 5 year old vids to more recent ones are:

1) The gun will be more accurate that you are (you wont come close to accuracy to what the gun is designed to do)
2) Use the irons as a starting point to zero
3) Don't chase the dot (when zeroing) Maybe the last 3 years of vids, I didn't see any 5 year old vids mention this.

None of this includes the topic of evolution of RDS or tactics. Info overload at this point for this post. But regarding evolution, the RMR is still king all these years later.  So looks like Trijicon got it right the first time.

***MODS, PLEASE MOVE THIS TO THE TOOLS SUB FORUM. Thanks.

So I'm watching more and more RDs vids. But the issue is that most of them are like 3-5 years old. Which IDK how much of their info still holds true all these years later.  Like the RMR  has been around for that long, with no huge updates so the "Should I RDS my pistol" vids are all very old.

The comparison vids are newer since new stuff does come out.  Most of the zeroing vids are quite old. But 1 stuck out which is why I'm posting about the time here. Sage Dynamics had a OG vid and then another one to amend it some time later, but this 2nd vid is still 2 years old.  It's about zeroing. He mentions zero at 25 from bench, but confirm with no bench. As the zero can change.  Then you have the newer vids mention zeroing at 10yrds is OK. Which makes me wonder was 25 the go to for RDS zero 5 years ago, but now that more info and learning is done, 10 is fine.  And like Jedi mentions the diff from a 10yrd zero at 25rds is 0.71 inches.  "If that matters, then you're living life too hard".

Some things that have held true from 5 year old vids to more recent ones are:

1) The gun will be more accurate that you are (you wont come close to accuracy to what the gun is designed to do)
2) Use the irons as a starting point to zero
3) Don't chase the dot (when zeroing) Maybe the last 3 years of vids, I didn't see any 5 year old vids mention this.

None of this includes the topic of evolution of RDS or tactics. Info overload at this point for this post. But regarding evolution, the RMR is still king all these years later.  So looks like Trijicon got it right the first time.

Why do you feel there is an issue with videos that are 3-5 years old?  There are a lot more recent videos, many by folks who have new(er)/(ish) channels, but does that make the information better?  Also note that many have gone to Patreon due to YT's practices and anti-2a policies.  Sage Dynamics has a Patreon channel. 

You're over thinking the zeroing thing, and I think missing the point of why Sage Dynamics revisited.  Not quite swooooshhh level, but maybe swsh. . . Similar to rifle red dot zero, decide for yourself based on your specific context, then learn the POI and any variation based on distances. 

One pro of Trijicon RMR has been durability, at least for me.  The foot print discussion is interesting, but also interesting is how many other companies decided to go with the same footprint for optics that followed.  I think Holosun has great products and most importantly they are seeming always progressing based on consumer input.  Maybe they won't get .mil contracts until some supply chain issues change, but as consumers we benefit from their continuing product evolution.  And I am a fan of the RMR and have them on multiple pistols. 

Why do you feel there is an issue with videos that are 3-5 years old?  There are a lot more recent videos, many by folks who have new(er)/(ish) channels, but does that make the information better?  Also note that many have gone to Patreon due to YT's practices and anti-2a policies.  Sage Dynamics has a Patreon channel. 

You're over thinking the zeroing thing, and I think missing the point of why Sage Dynamics revisited.  Not quite swooooshhh level, but maybe swsh. . . Similar to rifle red dot zero, decide for yourself based on your specific context, then learn the POI and any variation based on distances. 

One pro of Trijicon RMR has been durability, at least for me.  The foot print discussion is interesting, but also interesting is how many other companies decided to go with the same footprint for optics that followed.  I think Holosun has great products and most importantly they are seeming always progressing based on consumer input.  Maybe they won't get .mil contracts until some supply chain issues change, but as consumers we benefit from their continuing product evolution.  And I am a fan of the RMR and have them on multiple pistols.

Im still learning, its all french to me

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Im still learning, its all french to me

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Regarding zero, I have done a number of different ways.  In the past, was zero at 25 yards, because that's what KHSC has targets at, then confirm at "in your face" to further than 25 yards.  Then I tried starting zero at 10 yards and found that shooting at 15+ noted some magnification in windage that didn't see at 10 yards.  So if you're going to zero at 10, verify windage at further distance.

Similar with dot MOA.  Lots of videos on pros/cons of larger/smaller.  Many similar to S/D where their preference for zero and dot size changed over the years, or where they decided to revisit occasionally.  Once I have things the way I like, I tend to stop researching.  But like with the closed emitters, sometimes things catch my attention.  Sometimes when least expected. 

Like my AR optic SIG Romero5, where the dot sits, is where my POI is (excluding hold over distances). So I can move my head left, right, or in any manner and the dot will stay on where I'm holding it (assume no other movements of the rifle).

Will pistol RDS work the same? What I'm getting at is the dot may be on target, but the irons are not (for pistol). Will the bullet pretty much go where the dot sits regardless of the irons?

Like my AR optic SIG Romero5, where the dot sits, is where my POI is (excluding hold over distances). So I can move my head left, right, or in any manner and the dot will stay on where I'm holding it (assume no other movements of the rifle).

Will pistol RDS work the same? What I'm getting at is the dot may be on target, but the irons are not (for pistol). Will the bullet pretty much go where the dot sits regardless of the irons?

Spanish knock-off?

Parallax?  Yes, it works same/similar.  Test for yourself on acceptable sight alignment/sight picture.  Try this next time you have access to shoot at say 3-15 yards.  Start with irons.  Put front sight far left, far right, top, and bottom alignment in the rear sight.  See where impacts are in your selected target size (say 6" circle).  Then try with RDS.  With RDS, at least for me and RMR, the shots stacked at at least 7 yards.  I don't recall what they were at 7+. 

It's not that the dot is on target and the irons are not.  It's your head is out of alignment with the bore. . .

Helped a friend zero his RDS this weekend at 10yrds. I was hesitant to do this freehand due to me thinking my marksmanship isn't like the YT guys. Which means too much human error and I would just be chasing zero.  But looks like at 10, I'm gudd enuff.

Shot a few more RDS and I can def see the advantages. Now to RDS my SD/range gun is the next question....Be on the look out for a future thread possibly.

I know I don't want to RDs the 1911 as I want to keep it like how MEU/Recon used it. I dont' want to RDS the VP9 as I dont want to add a 6ths holster. So maybe a new gun will be in the futurre that's optics ready.

Helped a friend zero his RDS this weekend at 10yrds. I was hesitant to do this freehand due to me thinking my marksmanship isn't like the YT guys. Which means too much human error and I would just be chasing zero.  But looks like at 10, I'm gudd enuff.

Shot a few more RDS and I can def see the advantages. Now to RDS my SD/range gun is the next question....Be on the look out for a future thread possibly.

I know I don't want to RDs the 1911 as I want to keep it like how MEU/Recon used it. I dont' want to RDS the VP9 as I dont want to add a 6ths holster. So maybe a new gun will be in the futurre that's optics ready.

Starting a thread of your experiences has a number of benefits.  Similar to your 1911 thread, you can go back over time and see how things have progress, and maybe changed or evolved.  Also serves as a revisit to experiences after the fact and the process of getting things "on paper" helps, at least helps me. 

I personally would also keep your 1911 as is.  I don't know about milling options for VP9s, but lots more shops doing them nowadays, where pricing and turn-around is pretty good.  VP9 and P10C optic ready guns did pique my interest, but don't think I will go that route now that i'm into Glock slim-body pistols and the P320.  Good to have plenty of choices. 

Speaking of holsters, I am currently getting rid of a LOT of Glock 17 holsters that don't accommodate optics.  Luckily have many friends with Glock 17, 19, 22, etc.  Don't let a $30-100 accessory limit your capability and growth. 

Since the shooting bays reopened, had a couple of fun days on the range for the first time in a long time.  Shot mostly my 17.5 with Holosun EPS.  Changed the trigger from Johnny Glock EVO to Overwatch and liking it. 

Been shooting pistols here and there, but mostly concentrating in the 17.5/EPS setup right now.  At least until my RCR comes in. . . Nothing wrong with the EPS, just really want to try the RCR.  I have a 17.5 with Acro, but while that setup is solid, it's bulky.  Might shoot that in some USPSA matches next month. 

Overall still a big fan of RDS.  Was able to take a couple of classes in 2023, which really helped.  Finer details on stuff like vision fukus, target transition, etc.  Seeing more and more folks shooting with RDS, or at least trying.  It does take some time to transition, but believe it's worth it.  Yeah, some of my RDS cost more than the guns they sit on, but I do consider them well worth the money. 

For classes on the mainland, like the Rangemaster and ASP conference I went to, 80% of the shooters are shooting with pistol optics.

For classes on the mainland, like the Rangemaster and ASP conference I went to, 80% of the shooters are shooting with pistol optics.

For open range days on Oahu lately, I think about 60% or more with RDS pistols as primary (say shooting for score).  For the remaining 40%, of the folks I spoke to most either already have a pistol with RDS but wasn't using it that day (for various reasons) or putting it off (cost being primary). 

Comparing to carbines, I would say seeing the 80%+ with optics.  Sure, there are folks who still enjoy shooting irons.  I still shoot irons here and there with ARs/AKs and others like my 1903.  But mostly shooting with carbines with RDS or some sort of optic. 

I've been using my Romeo 1 on a P320 and EPS Carry on a Glock 48.  It's like cheating when shooting long distance, tighter groups and simpler to shoot than with irons.  I'm still slow using it close up.  Its difficult to speed up and acquire the dot on a draw so I'm practicing reps.  And the other thing is I could trade some accuracy for speed, but unconsciously I just don't want to.

I found it is much easier to be accurate using it in rapid fire. You have an on obstructed view of the target, and it's much simpler to look at the dot than lining up sights in the miliseconds between shots.

I'm going to TACCON next week in Dallas and everyone will be using optics there.

This was my practice target yesterday with the red shots being a Glock 48 at 7 yards.  Half of them were one shot from step 3 of the draw, gun rotated forward.  My shot times were 1.1 seconds with .2 sec being reaction time. It should be .75 seconds.  Other half of the shots were shoot 1 reload shoot 6 rapid fire strings with .2 splits.  It was easy to keep the dot in the center of the target improving accuracy.
The green shots were a few 6 shot strings with 1s splits. Again easy to keep the dot on target.

For open range days on Oahu lately, I think about 60% or more with RDS pistols as primary (say shooting for score).  For the remaining 40%, of the folks I spoke to most either already have a pistol with RDS but wasn't using it that day (for various reasons) or putting it off (cost being primary). 

Comparing to carbines, I would say seeing the 80%+ with optics.  Sure, there are folks who still enjoy shooting irons.  I still shoot irons here and there with ARs/AKs and others like my 1903.  But mostly shooting with carbines with RDS or some sort of optic.

TRex Arms had an interesting post about Holosun (Chinese).  It was basically about that all the feedback to Holosun on how to improve their product helps the Chinese give their military and police better stuff. Like America is their R&D.  China proves a much more affordable alternative and listens to what the people want.

My response to that is:

1) Holosun is an affordable optic. Maybe if Trijicon made a more affordable one that looks cool, then people would buy that. But like the cost of a RMR is double what a similar Holosun RDS is. And majority of the civilian buyers don't need something as rugged.  And does Trijicon need to maintain that price?  They have lots of government contracts out there.

2) For years, people have been asking for a side load battery for their RMR.  I mean, to have to remove the optic and re-zero just to change the battery is stupid.  IDK if Holo or another brand held a patent for a side loading battery.

After reading Trex's replies, he was basically blaming consumers for helping China. Not everyone can afford a double the price pistol red dot.  And even if they can, they would be able to allcoate that money toward training instead as they aren't LEO/Mil who needs a more durable pistol RDS.

Others replying were like "stop being poor".  Well not everyone can afford a $600 RMR or keep looking for sales.  They want to be able to buy a RDS when they want and not have to wait for sales or hunt for one.

For me, when I buy stuff, I look at is this a good value for my $.  Like I'm spending double on the RMR, am I getting double the benefits?

I've been using my Romeo 1 on a P320 and EPS Carry on a Glock 48.  It's like cheating when shooting long distance, tighter groups and simpler to shoot than with irons.  I'm still slow using it close up.  Its difficult to speed up and acquire the dot on a draw so I'm practicing reps.  And the other thing is I could trade some accuracy for speed, but unconsciously I just don't want to.

I found it is much easier to be accurate using it in rapid fire. You have an on obstructed view of the target, and it's much simpler to look at the dot than lining up sights in the miliseconds between shots.

I'm going to TACCON next week in Dallas and everyone will be using optics there.

This was my practice target yesterday with the red shots being a Glock 48 at 7 yards.  Half of them were one shot from step 3 of the draw, gun rotated forward.  My shot times were 1.1 seconds with .2 sec being reaction time. It should be .75 seconds.  Other half of the shots were shoot 1 reload shoot 6 rapid fire strings with .2 splits.  It was easy to keep the dot in the center of the target improving accuracy.
The red shots were a few 6 shot strings with 1s splits. Again easy to keep the dot on target.

There are numerous videos, and various methods on how to address this and/or improve on.  In the two courses I took last year, they each had slightly different takes.  Similar in many ways as well.  Try "extreme" focus on a point and put the dot on the point.  If you are having consistency issues with putting the dot on the point, there are many ways to address.  That said, with irons, you've probably gotten used to point shooting. 

There's also the aspect of "embrace the wobble", where tendency is to want to have the dot "set" prior to "sending it".  I think that's where you may be sensing some relaxation on speed vs accuracy. 

TRex Arms had an interesting post about Holosun (Chinese).  It was basically about that all the feedback to Holosun on how to improve their product helps the Chinese give their military and police better stuff. Like America is their R&D.  China proves a much more affordable alternative and listens to what the people want.

My response to that is:

1) Holosun is an affordable optic. Maybe if Trijicon made a more affordable one that looks cool, then people would buy that. But like the cost of a RMR is double what a similar Holosun RDS is. And majority of the civilian buyers don't need something as rugged.  And does Trijicon need to maintain that price?  They have lots of government contracts out there.

2) For years, people have been asking for a side load battery for their RMR.  I mean, to have to remove the optic and re-zero just to change the battery is stupid.  IDK if Holo or another brand held a patent for a side loading battery.

After reading Trex's replies, he was basically blaming consumers for helping China. Not everyone can afford a double the price pistol red dot.  And even if they can, they would be able to allcoate that money toward training instead as they aren't LEO/Mil who needs a more durable pistol RDS.

Others replying were like "stop being poor".  Well not everyone can afford a $600 RMR or keep looking for sales.  They want to be able to buy a RDS when they want and not have to wait for sales or hunt for one.

For me, when I buy stuff, I look at is this a good value for my $.  Like I'm spending double on the RMR, am I getting double the benefits?

New version of cerakote? 

Patent for side loading battery door?  Uh. . . (overthinking mebbe?)

In the end, it's your money.  If you're comfortable with guud enuff for your, then rock on.  Who cares what anyone else thinks.  Believe Lucas and/or TRex folks get "help" from Trijicon, be it $$$, products, etc.  I mean I don't agree with some of the gear snubbery.  I like Holosun products.  In the end, consumers often pay more than the "raw" cost to produce a given product. . .

I've mentioned my preference before, but this is a new anecdote.
Being the KISS type, I've worked with electronics for close to half a century.
I have difficulty trusting electronic sights on my guns.
About 3 weeks ago, I was helping a guy at the range with his SIG.
His Romeo Zero sight was dead.
(He said he just changed the battery)
I got more stories about optical sights.

I've mentioned my preference before, but this is a new anecdote.
Being the KISS type, I've worked with electronics for close to half a century.
I have difficulty trusting electronic sights on my guns.
About 3 weeks ago, I was helping a guy at the range with his SIG.
His Romeo Zero sight was dead.
(He said he just changed the battery)
I got more stories about optical sights.

There's that and certainly valid.  I intend to shoot more with irons, but often end up not doing it.

There's also the aspect of "embrace the wobble", where tendency is to want to have the dot "set" prior to "sending it".  I think that's where you may be sensing some relaxation on speed vs accuracy.

Just seems barbaric.

Just seems barbaric.

Shoot a USPSA match in carry optics. . . you'll see/hear that.  Direct from the barbarians.