Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion) (Read 888 times)

GlockNewb

Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« on: June 10, 2022, 08:52:38 AM »
Unique analytical take on civilians and body armor.


"Fast is slow, slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

changemyoil66

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2022, 10:11:53 AM »
In the end, your money. Spend it how you want.

I've been flagged 2x at open shoots by guys girlfriends.  The boyfriend caught it, but after the barrel swept me. 1 second is all it takes, so I place not too much blame on the boyfriends.  After this, I purchased bodyarmor.

Also flagged at a skill builder when 1 guy fell on his back.  Rifle had no mag in it (visible), and bolt locked back (not visible by me, but the RO checked it prior to him falling), but it's the principal. I had my plates on, but the guys next to me didn't because it was in their car. They then left to grab them and put them on.  Too late IMO.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2022, 04:46:37 AM »
If you are going to get shot at then you want body armor but they are heavy, somewhat expensive and chances are you will never use it. I bought steel ones and tried wearing it around my house for part of the day. Not comfortable given it's over 20 pounds. Tightening the cumber straps help a lot though

RSN172

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2022, 07:49:07 AM »
I would say 99.99% of civilians would never need body armor. Given my personal opinion of the need, I would not buy or use body armor.  For home defense, I would consider a ballistic shield.

QUIETShooter

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2022, 08:32:37 AM »
In the end, your money. Spend it how you want.

I've been flagged 2x at open shoots by guys girlfriends.  The boyfriend caught it, but after the barrel swept me. 1 second is all it takes, so I place not too much blame on the boyfriends.  After this, I purchased bodyarmor.

Also flagged at a skill builder when 1 guy fell on his back.  Rifle had no mag in it (visible), and bolt locked back (not visible by me, but the RO checked it prior to him falling), but it's the principal. I had my plates on, but the guys next to me didn't because it was in their car. They then left to grab them and put them on.  Too late IMO.

Thanks for sharing this.  I've never been to open shoots and skill builders and never thought about the inadvertent barrel sweep and safety protocol violations that can happen.

Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 02:59:34 AM »
I would say 99.99% of civilians would never need body armor. Given my personal opinion of the need, I would not buy or use body armor.  For home defense, I would consider a ballistic shield.

Shields do require quite a bit of skill to use. If you are just in your bedroom holding there then not so much but moving with one while maintaining a firearm is much harder especially given the size and weight.

They aren't cheap either, I think the cheapest I saw was over $300 and that wasn't rated against standard rifle threats. A plate carrier with a single front plate would be the most affordable and easiest to use though it would provide as much protection as a shield.

QUIETShooter

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 06:48:49 AM »
Yeah, out of curiosity I looked up these barrier shields.  Expensive and depending on degree of protection can go for $300 (expensive) up towards 4 to 5 grand (nuts).

And weigh like 24 lbs.  Thats a lot of weight to move around and manuever with.  But as a stationary stand your ground tool it looks like it could be pretty effective.

Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

RSN172

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 08:37:20 AM »
This shield is reasonable and light.  For a home invasion I would rather have a shield and a handgun than a long gun with no shield.

drck1000

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2022, 09:22:13 AM »
Two shields and two cue sticks and can have a jousting match!  ;D

aletheuo137

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2022, 09:52:41 AM »
Two shields and two cue sticks and can have a jousting match!  ;D
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changemyoil66

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2022, 11:37:56 AM »
Thanks for sharing this.  I've never been to open shoots and skill builders and never thought about the inadvertent barrel sweep and safety protocol violations that can happen.

It happens at the other sides as well.  I just dont go there anymore (boring).

aletheuo137

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2022, 11:15:46 AM »
Body armor and tactical gear are becoming increasingly popular among leftist progressives of color, gun rights advocate says

https://www.insider.com/body-armor-tactical-gear-increasingly-popular-with-leftists-2022-6

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nickelzismoney

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2022, 03:49:20 PM »
If you are going to get shot at then you want body armor but they are heavy, somewhat expensive and chances are you will never use it. I bought steel ones and tried wearing it around my house for part of the day. Not comfortable given it's over 20 pounds. Tightening the cumber straps help a lot though

Steel plates are not very effective. Ceramic/ hybrids are where it’s at. Much less spalling
“No matter how much it hurts, how dark it gets, or how hard you fall… you are never out of the fight.” - Marcus Luttrel

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QUIETShooter

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2022, 05:10:35 PM »
Aim for the head.  I gotta practice more.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2022, 05:26:21 PM »
Aim for the head.  I gotta practice more.

That's a reasonable thing to try.

But, you have to also realize one reason military and LE are trained to aim for center mass is to make sure you aren't looking into the enemy's eyes.  Psychologically, we are hardwired to have empathy for others.  Aiming a gun at someone's head where you can also see their eyes humanizes the target, making you less likely to fire without hesitation.  Many people when faced with a do-or-die situation can't bring themselves to fire.

Just throwing that out for whatever it's worth.  Practice can desensitize us to seeing a threat as a "target" rather than as a person, which is why most people practice with a human silhouette target (where allowed).

https://time.com/3816212/brain-murder-morality/
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

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QUIETShooter

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2022, 06:22:10 PM »
That's a reasonable thing to try.

But, you have to also realize one reason military and LE are trained to aim for center mass is to make sure you aren't looking into the enemy's eyes.  Psychologically, we are hardwired to have empathy for others.  Aiming a gun at someone's head where you can also see their eyes humanizes the target, making you less likely to fire without hesitation.  Many people when faced with a do-or-die situation can't bring themselves to fire.

Just throwing that out for whatever it's worth.  Practice can desensitize us to seeing a threat as a "target" rather than as a person, which is why most people practice with a human silhouette target (where allowed).

https://time.com/3816212/brain-murder-morality/

Good point. 

That brief moment in time when you are looking in the assailant's eyes can just make you commit a deadly mistake.

Hesitation.

Not to mention very few people (like me) have much of an opportunity to practice with human silhouette practice unless we go to that rip-off Waipahu indoor range or I guess the other one in Waikiki.  The bullseye range at KHSC won't even let us put crosshairs vertically.  Only horizontally.

So yeah, I like to run my mouth and truthfully, right now I'd probably miss if I had to go for a head shot.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2022, 06:52:02 PM »
Marco:  "The next time you have a chance to kill someone, don't hesitate!"

McClane:  [Shoots Marco through table]  "Thanks for the advice."

 :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I need some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones turned out to be true.

Hamburger Helper only works if the hamburger really wants to be helped.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2022, 11:19:02 PM »
Steel plates are not very effective. Ceramic/ hybrids are where it’s at. Much less spalling

Steel plates are very effective. They have better multi hit capabilities and when covered with a good coating the spalling really isn't an issue unless you get shot many many times.
However with a shield your face is not hanging over the edge of the shield, nearly all of your body is behind the shield so the spalling doesn't become much of an issue.

changemyoil66

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2022, 09:02:06 AM »
Steel plates are very effective. They have better multi hit capabilities and when covered with a good coating the spalling really isn't an issue unless you get shot many many times.
However with a shield your face is not hanging over the edge of the shield, nearly all of your body is behind the shield so the spalling doesn't become much of an issue.

That is if you're standing upright.  IV8888 did a test on Spartan Armor lvl 3 steel and it held up to like 70 shots. Then he went on to say, if you're getting hit 70x in your bodyarmor, something is very wrong.

Their lvl 3's are not XM193 rated.  There's vids of these rounds penetrating. But they can stop 7.62 and greens all day. The phrase "speed kills" in regard to velocity. Anything over 3000 fps will penetrate lvl3 steel.

drck1000

Re: Body Armor and Civilians (a discussion)
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2022, 10:11:01 AM »
That is if you're standing upright.  IV8888 did a test on Spartan Armor lvl 3 steel and it held up to like 70 shots. Then he went on to say, if you're getting hit 70x in your bodyarmor, something is very wrong.

Their lvl 3's are not XM193 rated.  There's vids of these rounds penetrating. But they can stop 7.62 and greens all day. The phrase "speed kills" in regard to velocity. Anything over 3000 fps will penetrate lvl3 steel.
I may or may not have a set of Spartan steel with spall coating to shoot.  :hmm:

Haven't decided yet though.  Maybe (MAYBE) if you get tazed. . .  ;D