I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine (Read 26929 times)

ren

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2016, 11:05:57 AM »
I've shot a friend's AR pistol that had a Magpul mag, or some other polymer mag.  I didn't ask them how it was secured since I have no interest in building one myself, but it sure wasn't coming out. 

Personally, I think AR pistols are cool and fun to shoot, but I just have no desire to build or own one.  That said, I wouldn't mind doing some testing with one to see what the muzzle velocity and accuracy is like compared to a 16" barreled AR.

My thoughts too.
I think if its a pistol you want it is easier to buy a real pistol i.e. Glock or 1911.
No bother welding things or jumping through all the legal definitions.
But I think it is cool. SHot one at the range. Reloading is a pain and in a real firefight a guy with a conventional pistol will reload faster than you can.
Deeds Not Words

London808

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2016, 11:23:26 AM »
My thoughts too.
I think if its a pistol you want it is easier to buy a real pistol i.e. Glock or 1911.
No bother welding things or jumping through all the legal definitions.
But I think it is cool. SHot one at the range. Reloading is a pain and in a real firefight a guy with a conventional pistol will reload faster than you can.

30 round mags in an AR pistol are legal as the mag is not detachable. so could be fun. Could make a good home defense weapon as well.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

suka

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2016, 02:06:11 PM »
a 16 inch barrel makes it a rifle ? as a pistol is defined as any firearm with a barrel less then 16 inchs
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.

OR

would a pistol with a 16 inch barrel be classified as a "Firearm" as it does not and has never had a stock ?
Yes, its just a firearm and not classified as an Assault Pistol, regardless of its operation and detachable magazine.

London808

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2016, 02:21:00 PM »
So i got a reply from the AG's office

Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot analyze, or provide legal advice to private citizens.  As provided by statute:
 
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute.  Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
 
I regret that we are unable to help you.



So i went with the next step : I called the Govoners office to get an answer.  I explained that i have asked HPD what the defintion is and they said they dont have one and that the AG's office would make that determination, I spoke to the AG's office and they say they dont have one but would make one up if they think some one broke a law ( WTF ). I expalined that they are refusing to answer the question based on the idea that they are prohibited by law from doing so. She said she would speak to the police department and get back to me, I again explained that i have spoken (via e-mail) to the current administration at HPD and that they say its the AG who makes that defintion. She said she will call the AG's office and find out WHY they wont answer the question and get back to me.



Looking at other state laws it is my opinion that there is a difference between detachable (for the purpose of reloading more ammo) and dissaseblable (the process of taking apart). one is an action that can be completed rapidly without tools, the other is a process that takes longer and requires tools.
.
Depending on what happens with the govoners office the only other option would be a lawsuit to force the AG's office to make a determination of the definition.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

Heavies

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2016, 02:38:31 PM »
Loving all this information, but I guess we got a little off topic....  Lol  :rofl:

to weld an aluminum mag to an aluminum receiver requires the use of a tungsten inert gas(TIG) welder that has A/C current capability.  The wall thickness of the magazine metal will determine the difficulty in producing a good looking weld and care must be taken as to not distort the magazine and/or receiver.

On you tube look for "welding tips and tricks" channel.  He has very good videos on welding all types of materials.   ;D




On the topic of legal definitions of AR pistol and mags.  I am interested in your data too London!  Thank you for taking the time to inquire! :shaka: :thumbsup: :shaka:

London808

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2016, 02:57:29 PM »
Yeah sorry was not my intention to Hijack, But i think its important to know that the only reason you have to weld the mags is becasue some one at HPD once decided that you had to and it has nothing to do with the law.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

eyeeatingfish

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2016, 03:36:26 PM »
So i got a reply from the AG's office

Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot analyze, or provide legal advice to private citizens.  As provided by statute:
 
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute.  Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
 
I regret that we are unable to help you.



So i went with the next step : I called the Govoners office to get an answer.  I explained that i have asked HPD what the defintion is and they said they dont have one and that the AG's office would make that determination, I spoke to the AG's office and they say they dont have one but would make one up if they think some one broke a law ( WTF ). I expalined that they are refusing to answer the question based on the idea that they are prohibited by law from doing so. She said she would speak to the police department and get back to me, I again explained that i have spoken (via e-mail) to the current administration at HPD and that they say its the AG who makes that defintion. She said she will call the AG's office and find out WHY they wont answer the question and get back to me.



Looking at other state laws it is my opinion that there is a difference between detachable (for the purpose of reloading more ammo) and dissaseblable (the process of taking apart). one is an action that can be completed rapidly without tools, the other is a process that takes longer and requires tools.
.
Depending on what happens with the govoners office the only other option would be a lawsuit to force the AG's office to make a determination of the definition.

If nothing else, your correspondence would be evidence that you attempted to follow the law in the event you, or someone else, ever got in trouble with this issue.

eyeeatingfish

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2016, 03:38:31 PM »
I've shot a friend's AR pistol that had a Magpul mag, or some other polymer mag.  I didn't ask them how it was secured since I have no interest in building one myself, but it sure wasn't coming out. 

Personally, I think AR pistols are cool and fun to shoot, but I just have no desire to build or own one.  That said, I wouldn't mind doing some testing with one to see what the muzzle velocity and accuracy is like compared to a 16" barreled AR.

That brings up an important point. How are you supposed to weld a magazine made out of plastic? That is one argument that could work. Tell them the magazine you have isn't metal and could not be welded using traditional welding so you had to use epoxy. Still sucks but at least it is easier and cheaper than actually metal welding.

Heavies

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2016, 04:02:21 PM »
That brings up an important point. How are you supposed to weld a magazine made out of plastic? That is one argument that could work. Tell them the magazine you have isn't metal and could not be welded using traditional welding so you had to use epoxy. Still sucks but at least it is easier and cheaper than actually metal welding.

Others have tried other methods of "permanently affixing" the magazine to the receiver in other ways vice welding.  HPD denied.    I believe to procedure from HPD was it needed to have at least a weld bead extending the length of the magwell on two sides. (nowhere in the law states that kind of requirement)

Have to look for those threads and post it.  maybe later.

eyeeatingfish

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2016, 04:11:17 PM »
Others have tried other methods of "permanently affixing" the magazine to the receiver in other ways vice welding.  HPD denied.    I believe to procedure from HPD was it needed to have at least a weld bead extending the length of the magwell on two sides. (nowhere in the law states that kind of requirement)

Have to look for those threads and post it.  maybe later.

I was not aware of other failed attempts. I can see where they would want to see the visible portion of the weld though. If that is their focus then an epoxy applied at the edge, similar to a weld, might be an option. Depends on what others who have tried and failed say.

Of course it could depend on who you get at the HPD window.

macsak

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2016, 05:27:59 PM »
I was not aware of other failed attempts.

perhaps you should research things before you speak...

ren

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2016, 05:57:59 PM »
perhaps you should research things before you speak...

he needs a root canal....
Deeds Not Words

London808

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2016, 06:54:43 PM »
Others have tried other methods of "permanently affixing" the magazine to the receiver in other ways vice welding.  HPD denied.    I believe to procedure from HPD was it needed to have at least a weld bead extending the length of the magwell on two sides. (nowhere in the law states that kind of requirement)

Have to look for those threads and post it.  maybe later.

The largest part of the problem is people just go along with whatever HPD says as being lawful. No one wants to put the time and/or effort and/or funds into challenge them. If i had of gone along with what they said i would of had to spend around $3k on flights to England OR not been able to own guns.

The easiest way to follow the law and not have to deal with HPD's bullshit is register an incomplete lower only as a pistol and configure it however is legal after the fact. HPD.

"The Honolulu Police Department does not define the definition of detachable magazine. "

"Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” "If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation."

HPD has no definition because the AG's office has not provided one.

"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

ren

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2016, 08:40:51 PM »
The largest part of the problem is people just go along with whatever HPD says as being lawful. No one wants to put the time and/or effort and/or funds into challenge them. If i had of gone along with what they said i would of had to spend around $3k on flights to England OR not been able to own guns.

The easiest way to follow the law and not have to deal with HPD's bullshit is register an incomplete lower only as a pistol and configure it however is legal after the fact. HPD.

"The Honolulu Police Department does not define the definition of detachable magazine. "

"Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” "If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation."

HPD has no definition because the AG's office has not provided one.

In other words, they make the laws however, they feel like it.
What if they decide that all ARs are pistols?
So what does the AG do? Legal counsel for the governor and not the people? Hmmm maybe we should stop paying them with our tax money
Deeds Not Words

London808

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2016, 08:50:57 PM »
In other words, they make the laws however, they feel like it.
What if they decide that all ARs are pistols?
So what does the AG do? Legal counsel for the governor and not the people? Hmmm maybe we should stop paying them with our tax money

Are you gona hate me if i tell you that under Hawaiis laws Ar15's are already illgeal ?

 "Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot, without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.  This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a single person.

All it takes is for HPD to decide it. The problem with laws is that they are subjective untill proven otherwise.

The AG's office has nothing to do with the people of Hawaii. The law that creates them says that they are for the governor and the state to provide legal counsel and representation in legal cases on their behalf. It does not say that this is their excursive job tho and the governor can tell them to do anything he pleases

"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

suka

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2016, 08:59:00 PM »
can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot.
It will only take about  30mins and a portable drill to convert a semi into a full auto AR15.



just drill a hole and add a sear, so easy !!!!! Full auto trigger parts are legal and can lawfully be bought.




London808

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2016, 09:04:00 PM »
can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot.
It will only take about  30mins and a portable drill to convert a semi into a full auto AR15.



just drill a hole and add a sear, so easy !!!!! Full auto trigger parts are legal and can lawfully be bought.





In Hawaii possession of all the parts, assembled or otherwise is the same as having the finished product
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

suka

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2016, 09:10:10 PM »
Are you gona hate me if i tell you that under Hawaiis laws Ar15's are already illgeal ?

 "Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot, without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.  This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a single person.

All it takes is for HPD to decide it. The problem with laws is that they are subjective untill proven otherwise.

The AG's office has nothing to do with the people of Hawaii. The law that creates them says that they are for the governor and the state to provide legal counsel and representation in legal cases on their behalf. It does not say that this is their excursive job tho and the governor can tell them to do anything he pleases

HK's  are even easier to convert, the receivers  need not  be modified to fire full auto.
A slightly  filed surplus trigger pack and surplus bolt is all that  is required.

suka

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2016, 09:14:26 PM »
In Hawaii possession of all the parts, assembled or otherwise is the same as having the finished product
not if its shipped and stored at your Grandmas house,  not under a single persons control.

Its what the ATF recommends while waiting for your Forms 1 to be approved.

armsinc

Re: I want to make an AR pistol with a welded magazine
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2016, 11:01:59 PM »
Talked to the Sergeant today he explain the process to me. He told me that if I weld it its non transferable. He said if it is not fully assembled and it's just the lower and mag I can keep trying till it is acceptable and it will not be confiscated. It must be welded all around the mag the mag catch dosent have to be welded but must be tested with out the mag catch.

Are you gona hate me if i tell you that under Hawaiis laws Ar15's are already illgeal ?

 "Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot, without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.  This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a single person.

All it takes is for HPD to decide it. The problem with laws is that they are subjective untill proven otherwise.

The AG's office has nothing to do with the people of Hawaii. The law that creates them says that they are for the governor and the state to provide legal counsel and representation in legal cases on their behalf. It does not say that this is their excursive job tho and the governor can tell them to do anything he pleases


Ar 15 is not readily convertible 2 full auto. Hawaii state does not define readily convertible. The federal government has and according to them and AR-15 without the hole for the full auto peice not readily convertible.



ArmsInc Hawaii