Just buy an EV (Read 13974 times)

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2022, 04:14:58 PM »
As a prepped minded person, I don’t see a full electric vehicle as being a viable option.  If things go to sh*t you’ll have your battery range and that’s all folks. (Not counting if you could afford a really good solar/battery set up for your home)

A hybrid, namely a plug in, would give you best of both worlds. You would have electric/fuel efficiency, but not locked in to an electrical outlet.

If you have a 50mi+/gal hybrid, you can store extra fuel to get you much further in bad times. 


All of this is doesn’t really matter at this point in time, because you can’t get anything electric right now if you wanted to. Not without getting completely ripped off by the dealer. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2022, 05:03:54 PM »
As a prepped minded person, I don’t see a full electric vehicle as being a viable option.  If things go to sh*t you’ll have your battery range and that’s all folks. (Not counting if you could afford a really good solar/battery set up for your home)

A hybrid, namely a plug in, would give you best of both worlds. You would have electric/fuel efficiency, but not locked in to an electrical outlet.

If you have a 50mi+/gal hybrid, you can store extra fuel to get you much further in bad times. 


All of this is doesn’t really matter at this point in time, because you can’t get anything electric right now if you wanted to. Not without getting completely ripped off by the dealer.

The BlazeTV ran a season of Independence USA where a man and his family moved to a remote farm and spent each episode learning to do something new off-grid.

For their barn, they installed low-power LED lights connected to a few car batteries.  To charge them, they set up a small wind turbine capable pf staying ahead of the demand on the batteries.

One of the most interesting projects was a pickup that ran on regular gas, propane, natural gas, and steam!  No matter what they had on hand, they could fuel it and get where they needed.  One additional duty they used the truck for was charging a huge array of car batteries that was used in the outdoor kitchen for lighting and small devices.  They hooked up a generator to the batteries, then turned the generator by running a belt to a wheel hub (no tire) on the truck drive axle.  The truck running in low gear and powered by pretty much anything, including a wood fire and steam, could charge the batteries to full capacity in an hour.

Very cool series.  Too bad it didn't go past a season.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2022, 05:26:36 PM »

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2022, 05:31:19 PM »
Hawaii’s electricity prices are rediculous, highest in the country. If you have a decently fuel economic ICE vehicle you wouldn’t save much of anything on having an electric powered vehicle, and you’d have the privilege of being severely inconvenienced attempting to charge the thing.

Researched some fast charger stations. They’re charging.50 to .60 cents a kilowatt hour. A certain vehicle I researched did about 3.5 Kilowatts per mile in very ideal driving conditions (light wind/flat terrain). You can do the math.

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2022, 05:33:32 PM »
The left will blab “you are saving the environment”. Bullish-t.

They just transfer the pollution from one area to another. And usually at the cost and health of that locale’s population.

drck1000

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2022, 05:40:05 PM »
The left will blab “you are saving the environment”. Bullish-t.

They just transfer the pollution from one area to another. And usually at the cost and health of that locale’s population.
Yup. Factor in fossil fuel for transport, what was used to produce, etc, it doesn’t come close to pencilling out. I didn’t do the calc, but a bunch of environmental engineers did when researching for themselves on realities of sustainable tech. EV cars aren’t that “green”.

But if it make you feel empowered and woke, rock on.

ren

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2022, 05:42:55 PM »
Hawaii’s electricity prices are rediculous, highest in the country. If you have a decently fuel economic ICE vehicle you wouldn’t save much of anything on having an electric powered vehicle, and you’d have the privilege of being severely inconvenienced attempting to charge the thing.

Researched some fast charger stations. They’re charging.50 to .60 cents a kilowatt hour. A certain vehicle I researched did about 3.5 Kilowatts per mile in very ideal driving conditions (light wind/flat terrain). You can do the math.

Fast charge that battery and cut its life short. Its like NOSing your ICE. Ige and HECO are laughing at us right now.
Deeds Not Words

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2022, 07:15:23 PM »
Fast charge that battery and cut its life short. Its like NOSing your ICE. Ige and HECO are laughing at us right now.

And uncle slow joe, Laughing all the way to the bank.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2022, 09:14:55 PM »
Obviously, you have never trouble shot a motor vehicle or boats electronics.
In the 60's and 70's it was super easy.
Then electronics and computers came along.

Ive done work on my cars since I was in high schools. Just this year I bought a handheld computer that plugs into the car and tells me what is wrong, made trouble shooting so much easier

eyeeatingfish

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2022, 09:38:28 PM »
Most mechanics cannot work on an EV.  So it's harder to find competition to do it cheaper because you end up having to go to the maker.  So it's harder due to not as many available to fix your car.

Even with all the tech in modern cars, your older mechanics cannot run the diagnostic unless they purchased the very expensive sensor reader.  Nor do they have the equipment to re-calibrate the sensors.  So often they have to send it out to someone who does or the maker.  So it is slightly harder to replace parts, even something as simple as a bumper or side mirror.  I know some insurance claims adjusters who told me this.

So mechanics will have to learn a few new repair methods, this is not a big deal, this is always true as car technology improves or changes.

I have had more problems with gas powered yard care equipment than any battery powered equipment. There are just fewer things to break. Either the battery is bad, the motor is bad, or the control board is bad. With a gas motor you have pumps, carburetors, gaskets, starters, spark plugs, piston rings, timing issues, etc.

So these sensors you mention, what are they sensing in an EV? In an internal combustion you have oil sensors, oxygen sensors, exhaust sensors etc. All things you don't need in an electric vehicle.

EVs reduce the need for so many spare parts so they are a threat to auto parts businesses. Problems in the computer systems can be harder to diagnose but easier to replace and overall may mean a decrease of mechanics needed.

How does the bumper and side mirror come into play differently for a EV and a gas car?

ren

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2022, 09:43:00 PM »
So mechanics will have to learn a few new repair methods, this is not a big deal, this is always true as car technology improves or changes.

I have had more problems with gas powered yard care equipment than any battery powered equipment. There are just fewer things to break. Either the battery is bad, the motor is bad, or the control board is bad. With a gas motor you have pumps, carburetors, gaskets, starters, spark plugs, piston rings, timing issues, etc.

So these sensors you mention, what are they sensing in an EV? In an internal combustion you have oil sensors, oxygen sensors, exhaust sensors etc. All things you don't need in an electric vehicle.

EVs reduce the need for so many spare parts so they are a threat to auto parts businesses. Problems in the computer systems can be harder to diagnose but easier to replace and overall may mean a decrease of mechanics needed.

How does the bumper and side mirror come into play differently for a EV and a gas car?

with the use of CAN buses mechanics will need knowledge beyond mechanical. There's more to a battery. There's the battery management system because there are multiple cells that need balancing and state of charge management. An electric motor needs a type of speed control. Newer side mirrors and bumpers have a proximity sensor (probably an X band sensor) built in to sense other vehicles or objects on the side of the car. Add a rear backup cam and there's a lot of info being transmitted. With all that packed into a side mirror and bumper it makes more sense to integrate it into a bus rather than running several cables to that one component.
Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2022, 09:55:53 PM »
with the use of CAN buses mechanics will need knowledge beyond mechanical. There's more to a battery. There's the battery management system because there are multiple cells that need balancing and state of charge management. An electric motor needs a type of speed control. Newer side mirrors and bumpers have a proximity sensor (probably an X band sensor) built in to sense other vehicles or objects on the side of the car. With all that packed into a side mirror it makes more sense to integrate it into a bus rather than running several cables to that one component.

This is true. There is a tremendous amount of electricity in those batteries and some important safety steps need to be taken. It's definitely more complicated than recharging a power tool I will give you that. Mechanics will need to learn new skills but my point is that overall an EV requires less maintenance.

I still don't understand the mirror thing and sensors. These exist in gas powered cars not just electric ones so it doesn't seem relevant unless I am missing something.

ren

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2022, 10:02:07 PM »
This is true. There is a tremendous amount of electricity in those batteries and some important safety steps need to be taken. It's definitely more complicated than recharging a power tool I will give you that. Mechanics will need to learn new skills but my point is that overall an EV requires less maintenance.

I still don't understand the mirror thing and sensors. These exist in gas powered cars not just electric ones so it doesn't seem relevant unless I am missing something.
Batteries store energy not electricity. https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/how-does-a-battery-work/
CANs exist in modern ICE vehicles too. Study how electrical components communicate to each other and you will understand. https://www.instructables.com/Exploring-the-Tesla-Model-S-CAN-Bus/
Deeds Not Words

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2022, 10:03:51 PM »
EVs, are just as, if not more complex, as a modern ICE vehicle. Just different sensors and computers. You need battery management systems with hundreds of angry highly reactive cells, battery coolant systems, electric power steering, brakes, a/c, range management and calculation systems, some have autonomous driving systems, gps, 360 camera and radar systems, regenerative systems, on and on

EVs can be simple, but modern expectations and convenience make them a beast. Same with old cars, super simple but no modern conveniences.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2022, 10:08:48 PM »
Batteries store energy not electricity. CANs exist in modern ICE vehicles too. Study how electrical components communicate to each other and you will understand.

Ok, yes, energy not electricity, my bad. My point was that touch an EV battery system wrong and you could die, not something likely from a 12 volt in a traditional ICE.

You're going to have to give me more of a hint than that. I understand these sensors are going to go back to a computer system that is going to take the data from the sensor and send it where necessary but how is a Tesla proximity sensor any different than my Ford's proximity sensor in terms of maintenance? My Ford has a computer in it getting input from many sensors and controlling hundreds of functions, how does an electrical power train make that different from an ICE powertrain?

eyeeatingfish

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2022, 10:22:44 PM »
EVs, are just as, if not more complex, as a modern ICE vehicle. Just different sensors and computers. You need battery management systems with hundreds of angry highly reactive cells, battery coolant systems, electric power steering, brakes, a/c, range management and calculation systems, some have autonomous driving systems, gps, 360 camera and radar systems, regenerative systems, on and on

EVs can be simple, but modern expectations and convenience make them a beast. Same with old cars, super simple but no modern conveniences.

Agreed but the point I am trying to make is not about complexity but about repair being less of an issue. Consider it this way, if a product is more difficult to fix but also breaks down less then the difficulty fixing it doesn't become as much of an issue. I couldn't troubleshoot a computer board but an ICE just has so many more moving parts and parts that could break.

Cost wise I think some of the repairs may be a wash. So maybe a new computer board cost more in parts than a repair on an ICE but easier replacement would save on the labor end. I'll have to go dig to find something to illustrate the long term maintenance costs. Gonna go bed for now.

Half the complex systems you list are also on internal combustion engine vehicles too so the difficulties in diagnosing and repairing them are present regardless of the powertrain and not relevant to which ones are more of an issue maintaining.

Heavies

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2022, 10:40:44 PM »
Agreed but the point I am trying to make is not about complexity but about repair being less of an issue. Consider it this way, if a product is more difficult to fix but also breaks down less then the difficulty fixing it doesn't become as much of an issue. I couldn't troubleshoot a computer board but an ICE just has so many more moving parts and parts that could break.

Cost wise I think some of the repairs may be a wash. So maybe a new computer board cost more in parts than a repair on an ICE but easier replacement would save on the labor end. I'll have to go dig to find something to illustrate the long term maintenance costs. Gonna go bed for now.

Half the complex systems you list are also on internal combustion engine vehicles too so the difficulties in diagnosing and repairing them are present regardless of the powertrain and not relevant to which ones are more of an issue maintaining.


Watch some of the issues in getting a Tesla repaired on the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel. Some real horror stories. Other major car companies EVs I don’t know about.

After watching his channel, I would never buy a Tesla.

ren

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2022, 07:31:36 AM »
Ok, yes, energy not electricity, my bad. My point was that touch an EV battery system wrong and you could die, not something likely from a 12 volt in a traditional ICE.

You're going to have to give me more of a hint than that. I understand these sensors are going to go back to a computer system that is going to take the data from the sensor and send it where necessary but how is a Tesla proximity sensor any different than my Ford's proximity sensor in terms of maintenance? My Ford has a computer in it getting input from many sensors and controlling hundreds of functions, how does an electrical power train make that different from an ICE powertrain?

this isn't an argument. the information is out there
Deeds Not Words

zippz

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2022, 09:37:27 AM »
An all electric isn't for for everyone even in Hawaii mainly due to the initial cost of the car and high electricity prices.  If a person can afford the high initial cost and has solar panels, then it saves money in the long run saving on fuel costs and maintenance.

Hybrids are a good option which are cheaper and could be more useful in emergencies.  The biggest downside is the limited battery capacity as most hybrids only have 10 to 20 mile batteries.  A 30 to 50 mile range would be ideal, but there are fewer options.  I'm not sure how they are on maintenance since you now have two drive systems to deal with.

The problem with gasoline in an emergency is the vast majority of stations don't have generators to run the pumps.  It could be a while till generators are available to run them or the station's tanks can be refueled.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

changemyoil66

Re: Just buy an EV
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2022, 09:38:24 AM »
So mechanics will have to learn a few new repair methods, this is not a big deal, this is always true as car technology improves or changes.

I have had more problems with gas powered yard care equipment than any battery powered equipment. There are just fewer things to break. Either the battery is bad, the motor is bad, or the control board is bad. With a gas motor you have pumps, carburetors, gaskets, starters, spark plugs, piston rings, timing issues, etc.

So these sensors you mention, what are they sensing in an EV? In an internal combustion you have oil sensors, oxygen sensors, exhaust sensors etc. All things you don't need in an electric vehicle.

EVs reduce the need for so many spare parts so they are a threat to auto parts businesses. Problems in the computer systems can be harder to diagnose but easier to replace and overall may mean a decrease of mechanics needed.

How does the bumper and side mirror come into play differently for a EV and a gas car?

It actually is a big deal. Again per the claims adjusters I spoke to, the mechanic industry is a dying breed.  They're getting older and unwilling to learn the new tech and refer to my post about investing in the expensive equipment for each make of vehicle.  Like others mentioned, with electrical type systems (battery powered) 1 has to be very careful.  I mean I've had friends (ICE) short out their entire fuse box by touching the wires wrong when installing a subwoofer. Luckily, fuses are cheap. But some situations, it's more than just the $0.50 fuses that shorted. So multiply this factor with EV's.  And add in most younger people are not willing to put in the labor to do this industry.  Mainly it's the die hard car enthusiast who continue the work force.  This also applies to painting cars. The turn around for both are very high because most don't want to work that hard for the pay an employee gets.  And to own a shop, you need XP first, then the bankroll.  Then add in the owners don't want their kids to work as hard as they do.  The philosophy is they want their children to work smarter, not harder.

So in theory an ICE should be more complicated to work on due to more moving parts, but in reality they're not. How many EV"s do you see at any non-makers repair shop?  And in HI, Teslas are everywhere.  I have yet to see any Tesla at a mom n pop repair shop.

Even with side mirrors, they have sensors in them that require calibration and readings to repair. For older cars, when someone hit your mirror while you're parked on the road, it was simple bolt on and bolt off and paint.  Then it became electrical adjusting, so now plug in and bolt on and paint. Now they have collision warnings. So enter the calibrations.  Same for front windshields. Many new cars have collision warnings that read not only thru the bumper, but the windshield (Subaru is 1 maker besides Teslas that I know of).

For additional censors that an EV has that an ICE doesn't is the battery, flow of juice, distribution of juice, cut off for over charging.  Some cars have battery warmers for cold seasons.  This is in very simple terms, there are a lot more technical that IDK how to explain.