Think .380 Auto is an acceptable self defense caliber? Think again.... (Read 9535 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Is the .380 ACP an Adequate Caliber for Defensive Use?

Quote
Many small, easily concealed semi-automatic pistols which are recommended for law enforcement backup or concealed
carry fire .380 ACP or smaller bullets. While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds, they are
less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/is-the-380-acp-an-adequate-caliber-for-defensive-use
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

drck1000

One of my buddy's is a fan of the Glock 43, particularly for his wife.  I've been trying to talk him into a more "standard" sized 9 mm as I have seen people have trouble with the smaller pocket pistols.  For many reasons, and for both larger and smaller hand sizes.  I always wondered if the .380 had sufficient velocity to perform well and seems like the results were mixed at best. 

Other than the ballistic gelatin information, this article has a lot of "one man's opinion" when it comes to gun choices.  I actually like the Shield over the 43 or 42 and know many who share that opinion.  But most of that is personal preference as opposed to "real" experience with the gun. 

Flapp_Jackson

One of my buddy's is a fan of the Glock 43, particularly for his wife.  I've been trying to talk him into a more "standard" sized 9 mm as I have seen people have trouble with the smaller pocket pistols.  For many reasons, and for both larger and smaller hand sizes.  I always wondered if the .380 had sufficient velocity to perform well and seems like the results were mixed at best. 

Other than the ballistic gelatin information, this article has a lot of "one man's opinion" when it comes to gun choices.  I actually like the Shield over the 43 or 42 and know many who share that opinion.  But most of that is personal preference as opposed to "real" experience with the gun.

Not just one man.  He also quotes the leading wound ballistic researcher in the world, Dr. Gary Roberts, who recently weighed in on the issue in a wound ballistics briefing for the FBI. His words are quoted in the OP.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

dustoff003

.380 ACP > nothing


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drck1000

Not just one man.  He also quotes the leading wound ballistic researcher in the world, Dr. Gary Roberts, who recently weighed in on the issue in a wound ballistics briefing for the FBI. His words are quoted in the OP.
I was referring to the writer's opinion on gun selection.  Not the ballistic research. 

Quote
Although the.380 ACP isn’t a ballistic powerhouse, I’m more worried about the reliability of the guns chambering this round than I am its lack of ballistic performance.  the gun has to go “bang” every time the trigger is pulled.  I haven’t seen many .380s that pass my standards for reliability.  If you are going to carry a .380, I would avoid the KelTec.  I’ve seen more problems with that gun than any other .380 auto.  I’d also avoid carrying the PPK or PPK/S if you want to use modern hollowpoint ammo.  Those guns seldom perform well unless ball ammunition is used.  Take a look at the new Glock 42 or the Kahr.  Those seem to run the best of the lot.  The S&W Bodyguard is usually fairly reliable, but the trigger pull is horrible and those of you with larger hands won’t like it.  The Ruger LCP has been hit or miss.  I have one that works very well, but I’ve also seen a lot of them puke on the range.

Flapp_Jackson

I was referring to the writer's opinion on gun selection.  Not the ballistic research.

I own an M&P 9 Shield and a G42.  I like the Shield much better, but I can see the G42 in a pocket holster coming in handy if my primary carry fails or is taken from me. 

Read a story of a store worker and customer being lead to a back room by a robber at gun point.  Customer was able to pull his .380 and shoot the bad guy in the back of his head from a few inches away.  In the right circumstances, ANY caliber is better than a hand with just skin.

First time shooting the G42 at the wonderful 25 yard KHSC pistol range, I was able to get all rounds on the target with much concentration.  Others with me weren't able to hit anywhere on the target with a single round.  Very small pocket guns are not well suited for stand-off distances regardless of whether the round will be effective or not.  No caliber can be effective with a gun that can't hit the target!
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Inspector

You all can argue with me on this but I feel the .22 Magnum is a better self defense round than the .380. Is it acceptable? Not in my opinion. But if you have someone who is recoil adverse, why not get them a .22 magnum which has better stopping power and about the same or less recoil.

Personally, I feel the 9mm and .38 SPL are a minimum for self defense. But as a backup to your main defense weapon, a .22 magnum is a better choice over a .380 IMHO.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Inspector

Ooooops!  :oops: :oops: :oops:
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Flapp_Jackson

You all can argue with me on this but I feel the .22 Magnum is a better self defense round than the .380. Is it acceptable? Not in my opinion. But if you have someone who is recoil adverse, why not get them a .22 magnum which has better stopping power and about the same or less recoil.

Personally, I feel the 9mm and .38 SPL are a minimum for self defense. But as a backup to your main defense weapon, a .22 magnum is a better choice over a .380 IMHO.

This isn't really an argument as much as sharing the opinions of people with actual data to back them up.

Bottom line pretty much mirrors what you said:  Any caliber can kill, but to incapacitate someone, a 9MM or .38 Special is the bare minimum to carry/use.  Smaller calibers are better than no gun at all, but are inadequate for LEO backup guns (BUGs) or self defense in most (not all) circumstances.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

ren

I can say with 100% confidence that if I were to get shot with one, I'd be on the ground.
Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

I can say with 100% confidence that if I were to get shot with one, I'd be on the ground.

Here's your hat ...



 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

drck1000

I can say with 100% confidence that if I were to get shot with one, I'd be on the ground.
People talk about caliber all the time.  I mean I know for 100% confidence that I don't want to be shot with a .22 lr.  I wouldn't even want to be shot with a BB gun.   ??? ;D

ren

there should be a survey of people shot with different calibers
What questions should be asked?
On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most pain.
How did it feel?
Would you most likely to comply after being shot with said caliber?
Deeds Not Words

aaronc5362

Idk if it was a survey, but I think the FBI has data on the most gunshot wounds.

22lr was the winner. If I recall correctly. In the US only. Military application didn't apply. As a matter of fact I think I heard it on discovery channel. But they do BS some times. And my input is prob atleast 2 years old.

Now for fatal wounds im unsure. But I assume 22lr,  9 or 45 as it is most common.

Flapp_Jackson

there should be a survey of people shot with different calibers
What questions should be asked?
On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most pain.
How did it feel?
Would you most likely to comply after being shot with said caliber?

Too many variables:

Body weight % of muscle & % of fat
Distance
Place shot
Number of hits
Ammo type

Many other factors than just size of the bullet and muzzle velocity.

I've heard many times that ALL pistol calibers are "anemic" in stopping threats.  Given the same circumstances, a rifle shot is always more effective.

.22 is very commonly the caliber involved in shooting deaths.  But we shouldn't judge all shoot-outs in terms of only deaths.  The intent should be to stop the threat.  Killing the threat isn't always necessary, nor is it always the outcome. 

If getting shot with a 9MM or 45 causes enough trauma to stop the attacker without hitting something vital, that's better than hoping a .22 or .380 hits  the heart, the spine, or somewhere else to disable the person.  A .22 might hurt most people, but a meth head might not even feel that!
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

drck1000

I recall reading somewhere that 22 lead all other calibers in terms of firearm deaths.  However, one thing to note that that figure includes suicides.

I also recall discussion from a medical perspective that 22 lr wound are notoriously difficult to treat since they sort of "meander" once they enter the body.  Since it's a small caliber, it can be difficult to trace it's path.  So it can nick an artery or something and it can take quite a bit of time to find it and stop the bleeding. 

Flapp_Jackson

I recall reading somewhere that 22 lead all other calibers in terms of firearm deaths.  However, one thing to note that that figure includes suicides.

I also recall discussion from a medical perspective that 22 lr wound are notoriously difficult to treat since they sort of "meander" once they enter the body.  Since it's a small caliber, it can be difficult to trace it's path.  So it can nick an artery or something and it can take quite a bit of time to find it and stop the bleeding.

.22 is the caliber "hit men" prefer (quieter and the bullet becomes deformed on impact, making it difficult for ballistic matching).
.22 is the most popular caliber for plinking, target practice, young shooters, etc due to price, noise and manageability.  That changed somewhat during Obama's tenure as .22 was difficult to find.  Some upgraded to 9mm just to have ammo to practice with.
.22 is among the "Saturday Night Special" calibers (.22, .25, .32).  Lots of little derringers and pocket guns are carried and concealed illegally.
.22 is not taken as seriously as other weapons by many.

As you mentioned, suicides also skew the caliber stats, since a .22 is going to be more common, more accessible, less messy and more familiar.

I'd really like to know how many actual DGU incidents include what caliber handguns.  People without a gun will usually back down when facing a gun -- any gun.  So, even a .22 can defuse an attack without facing the question on effectiveness.

Unfortunately, since most DGUs are unreported, we'll probably never see those stats.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

oldfart

there should be a survey of people shot with different calibers
What questions should be asked?
On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most pain.
How did it feel?
Would you most likely to comply after being shot with said caliber?
==============
seriously, nowadays most people that git shot are cranked up crackheads.
I believe it takes a lot to stop a crackhead....probably more than a 380 or a 22 or 22mag.
IMHO
What, Me Worry?

PalisadesKid

Without permission from the "crown" here in Hawaii, for anyone to consider anything less than a 9mm, hollow point of course, is odd. I used to keep my G19 as my primary home defense firearm simply because its easier to manuever as I have other people in the house to tend to if the need arises in a home invasion, but quickly made the more ballistically-logical choice to go with my Mossberg 500 as THE "home defender" loaded with 00 Buck.

davek42

As I read some of the comment I wonder how many in Hawaii have really carried a gun, outsides there bed room. I'm not a local guy but have lived here a while.
 I have carried a loaded gun 24/7. I have fired 10. of thousands of rounds of ammo.

 If you buy a 380 and try shooting it at 25 yrds a good shooter will keep them on the target, Most people will never hit the target.,
But again the 380 is not a 25 yrd gun. It is a self defense gun 5-7-15 yards. with lots of practice.

If your shot with a 32,380.22mag at 15 yrd you will feel the pain. Will some one fall dead like in the movies, probably not, I have alway's told my customers and students After you shoot, there still might be a fight, But they will know some one fire a gun at them, and if hit they will know it.,
 its not like the movies or game boy. Most 380 are small pocket guns easy to carry while wearing short,
 
I managed a gun store, we had 2000+ guns in the shop. I could carry and did carry lots of different guns over the 15 year I was there. In the winter of fall with a coat on it was easier. When I carried in the summer. Like Hawaii  I carried a Kel Tec 32 with a 10rd mag.
Oooooooh No a 32acp At 10 yrds I could put all 10 rds on a pop can top., 10 rds in your head your dead... I had 1 malfunction with over 700 rds thru this gun.
These are close range in your face self defense guns. 380 has ample power. If your going to war fighting for your life. Carrie a bigger gun.

 If you thing your going to be shooting across a room or parking lot You better get a lawyer you'll need 1. The gun is for self protection

Read what you want, in the real world books just tell you someone option, just like I just did. Been there done that,If your  not going to war, just carrying for self protection. 32,380, 22mag will work. Its better than a stick