More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America. (Read 7119 times)

Glasser

omnigun

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 06:55:53 PM »
Nice.   Science prevales.

macsak

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2021, 07:30:30 PM »
Nice.   Science prevales.

3.7 in phonics...

Flapp_Jackson

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2021, 07:43:56 PM »
Nice.   Science prevales.

Your view of science is on par with your spelling ("prevales").

Science has nothing to do with it.  Even the article says "according to academic estimates."

There are many research efforts, including the work Lott does.  The word "research" is not a synonym for "science".  If it were, everyone who uses Google is a scientist conducting research.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

groveler

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2021, 08:40:56 PM »
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Guns save lives.
I can't tell my stories as
Democrats could use use Prosecutorial (sp?)
discretion.
Shoot, shovel, Shut up.
 :thumbsup:

eyeeatingfish

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2021, 09:19:06 PM »
I have no doubt defensive firearm use is vastly underreported and under covered by the media but I keep running into questions on how the surveys are measuring whether a firearm had a role in an incident.

Some could be very clear,  like a robber walks up demanding money and the victim points a gun at the robber and he runs away or gets shot but are all so clear? Are the surveys merely asking people if they used a gun defensively or are they evaluating the reports? If a survey question leaves too much open for interpretation then you can end up with skewed results because of subjective answers. So for example if I worked in a convenience store and a sketchy looking guy walked in eyeballing me but then saw the gun on my waiste and left. Would that count as a defensive firearm use?

I also wonder whether people are answering accurately, since this is a hot button issue, a firearm rights advocate might lie and say they used a firearm defensively just to make a better argument for their position on the issue.

eyeeatingfish

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2021, 09:19:56 PM »
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Guns save lives.
I can't tell my stories as
Democrats could use use Prosecutorial (sp?)
discretion.
Shoot, shovel, Shut up.
 :thumbsup:

Only if they can prove jurisdiction and that it was within the statute of limitations ;)

changemyoil66

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2021, 09:48:49 PM »
I have no doubt defensive firearm use is vastly underreported and under covered by the media but I keep running into questions on how the surveys are measuring whether a firearm had a role in an incident.

Some could be very clear,  like a robber walks up demanding money and the victim points a gun at the robber and he runs away or gets shot but are all so clear? Are the surveys merely asking people if they used a gun defensively or are they evaluating the reports? If a survey question leaves too much open for interpretation then you can end up with skewed results because of subjective answers. So for example if I worked in a convenience store and a sketchy looking guy walked in eyeballing me but then saw the gun on my waiste and left. Would that count as a defensive firearm use?

I also wonder whether people are answering accurately, since this is a hot button issue, a firearm rights advocate might lie and say they used a firearm defensively just to make a better argument for their position on the issue.
This is why the CDC estimate is so huge. 500k-1 million times a year.

My ccw instructor told us a story from a student. She works retail and finishes late and alone. Employee parking lot is in a dark isolated area. Shes packing. A group of guys approached her in that lot. She was the only car there and its fenced off. So they were not passing thru. As they got closer (10 feet), she reached into her waistband. This caused them all to pause and turn around and walk away. She called the police and they caught the guys. But because no law was broken, no report made. They just warned the group how lucky they are because she is armed.

So this is 1 instance of no paper trail.

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eyeeatingfish

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2021, 10:03:04 PM »
This is why the CDC estimate is so huge. 500k-1 million times a year.

My ccw instructor told us a story from a student. She works retail and finishes late and alone. Employee parking lot is in a dark isolated area. Shes packing. A group of guys approached her in that lot. She was the only car there and its fenced off. So they were not passing thru. As they got closer (10 feet), she reached into her waistband. This caused them all to pause and turn around and walk away. She called the police and they caught the guys. But because no law was broken, no report made. They just warned the group how lucky they are because she is armed.

So this is 1 instance of no paper trail.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

A perfect example. Now we can all imagine this situation and assume these guys had bad intentions but an objective question would be to ask whether they were really going to commit a crime or not. Were they going to attack her or jerks trying to hit on her?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2021, 10:05:53 PM »
I have no doubt defensive firearm use is vastly underreported and under covered by the media but I keep running into questions on how the surveys are measuring whether a firearm had a role in an incident.

Some could be very clear,  like a robber walks up demanding money and the victim points a gun at the robber and he runs away or gets shot but are all so clear? Are the surveys merely asking people if they used a gun defensively or are they evaluating the reports? If a survey question leaves too much open for interpretation then you can end up with skewed results because of subjective answers. So for example if I worked in a convenience store and a sketchy looking guy walked in eyeballing me but then saw the gun on my waiste and left. Would that count as a defensive firearm use?

I also wonder whether people are answering accurately, since this is a hot button issue, a firearm rights advocate might lie and say they used a firearm defensively just to make a better argument for their position on the issue.

From the CDC:

Quote
Although definitions of defensive gun use vary, it is generally defined as the use of a
firearm to protect and defend one’s self, family, others, and/or property against crime
or victimization.

Estimates of defensive gun use vary depending on the questions asked, populations
studied, timeframe, and other factors related to the design of studies. The report
Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence indicates a
range of 60,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html

This has been reported many times by the CDC in many ways, including to say, "The use of firearms defensively occurs at least as often as does the criminal use of guns."

I think most people understand the plain language description when deciding if they defended themselves or others with a gun whether or not it resulted in discharging the gun.

It's useless to further dissect individual events in hopes of gaining some hidden insight into causes and effects.  We don't do that for criminal stats, so pretending there's something more to learn from DGU stats would be treating the two data differently.

If a firearm had a "role"?  Firearms are inanimate objects.  The only "role" it plays is the one the person holding it decides.  The gun has no choice in the matter.

You don't need defending from someone "eyeballing" you, so no, that's not a case of self defense at all. 

However, if you're walking alone in a deserted parking lot toward your car, and you turn to see 3 young men walking in your direction, you can tell them to not come any closer -- they can wait until you leave to keep walking that way if they need to.  If they continue, and you draw your weapon repeating the demand they not come closer and they stop/turn to leave, it's pretty clear the firearm made the difference. 

If you believe you were at risk of injury, rape, or death, or another person may be, you can draw a gun.  If doing so scares away the threat, then you were prudent to hold your fire. 

If no rounds are fired, you really don't have to justify your actions.  If the threat was real, it's doubtful they will file a report for you pointing a gun at them, which is why most of these situations go unreported.  Basically nothing happened as the situation was diffused.  That's the way it SHOULD be viewed, but there are some prosecutors who argue that if you didn't fire, then you really weren't in fear for your life.  It becomes a Catch-22.  if you fire, you're a killer.  If you don't fire, you were not actually afraid enough to draw a gun.

The legal system often overrides common sense by playing Monday morning quarterback.

Maybe they should devise a poll of how many people with Concealed Carry rights don't carry because the laws threaten to destroy their lives if they ever unholster it.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

RSN172

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2021, 10:11:38 PM »
Every issue of Concealed Carry magazine as a bunch of incidents where a firearm prevented or stopped criminal behavior.

drck1000

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2021, 10:14:07 PM »
Someone should troll MDA with articles like this. 

changemyoil66

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2021, 10:21:41 PM »


A perfect example. Now we can all imagine this situation and assume these guys had bad intentions but an objective question would be to ask whether they were really going to commit a crime or not. Were they going to attack her or jerks trying to hit on her?

1am, dark area, alone. Maybe asking for directions.   im not a fortune teller or mind reader. Kind of like red flag laws, which vegas does have. Yet cops couldnt do anything.

Forgot to mention, this was in vegas.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2021, 10:22:11 PM »
Someone should troll MDA with articles like this.

We do, but they insta-ban us all.

 :geekdanc: :geekdanc: :geekdanc:
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Flapp_Jackson

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2021, 10:28:06 PM »
A perfect example. Now we can all imagine this situation and assume these guys had bad intentions but an objective question would be to ask whether they were really going to commit a crime or not. Were they going to attack her or jerks trying to hit on her?

Just like sexual harassment, the threat is in the eye of the beholder.  What the perceived threat intended is not relevant if their actions are provoking a fear response.

That's why it's best to loudly demand they stop and not walk any closer.  If they understand you're scared, they won't keep walking.  If they are stupid or a threat, they will keep coming.

In CCW class, we went through a similar escalation of force process as Cops do.  Verbal commands, loud command voice, repeat the command, draw and repeat the command with an additional "... or I will shoot you" after it.  If you do everything you can to diffuse the situation, that's all that should be expected ... and necessary.  If it escalates to use of deadly force, that's what target practice is for.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2021, 10:32:21 PM »
Someone should troll MDA with articles like this.

MDA = Mothers Demand Action?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2021, 10:34:28 PM »
MDA = Mothers Demand Action?

No, the Muscular Dystrophy Association.

#sarcasm
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Glasser

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2021, 10:35:01 PM »
A perfect example. Now we can all imagine this situation and assume these guys had bad intentions but an objective question would be to ask whether they were really going to commit a crime or not. Were they going to attack her or jerks trying to hit on her?

yeah when guys wanna pick up a chick they think is cute they make sure to bring 5 friends to a dark parking lot, that always ups their up your  odds of getting her to give you a phone number.  SHM

keep trying to stuff those camels thru the eyes of needles.

changemyoil66

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2021, 10:45:44 PM »
No, the Muscular Dystrophy Association.

#sarcasm
Hahhhahha good laugh b4 bed.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

eyeeatingfish

Re: More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America.
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2021, 10:49:35 PM »
From the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html

This has been reported many times by the CDC in many ways, including to say, "The use of firearms defensively occurs at least as often as does the criminal use of guns."

I think most people understand the plain language description when deciding if they defended themselves or others with a gun whether or not it resulted in discharging the gun.

It's useless to further dissect individual events in hopes of gaining some hidden insight into causes and effects.  We don't do that for criminal stats, so pretending there's something more to learn from DGU stats would be treating the two data differently.

If a firearm had a "role"?  Firearms are inanimate objects.  The only "role" it plays is the one the person holding it decides.  The gun has no choice in the matter.

You don't need defending from someone "eyeballing" you, so no, that's not a case of self defense at all. 

However, if you're walking alone in a deserted parking lot toward your car, and you turn to see 3 young men walking in your direction, you can tell them to not come any closer -- they can wait until you leave to keep walking that way if they need to.  If they continue, and you draw your weapon repeating the demand they not come closer and they stop/turn to leave, it's pretty clear the firearm made the difference. 

If you believe you were at risk of injury, rape, or death, or another person may be, you can draw a gun.  If doing so scares away the threat, then you were prudent to hold your fire. 

If no rounds are fired, you really don't have to justify your actions.  If the threat was real, it's doubtful they will file a report for you pointing a gun at them, which is why most of these situations go unreported.  Basically nothing happened as the situation was diffused.  That's the way it SHOULD be viewed, but there are some prosecutors who argue that if you didn't fire, then you really weren't in fear for your life.  It becomes a Catch-22.  if you fire, you're a killer.  If you don't fire, you were not actually afraid enough to draw a gun.

The legal system often overrides common sense by playing Monday morning quarterback.

Maybe they should devise a poll of how many people with Concealed Carry rights don't carry because the laws threaten to destroy their lives if they ever unholster it.

I don't have the same confidence in people understanding and all agreeing on what it would mean to defend oneself with a firearm. I remember learning in college how important it is to have clear and well defined questions on surveys. If you use a term that isn't widely agreed upon you would have to define it specifically for the sake of the survey to try and make sure everyone was answering the same thing. Maybe the designers of these surveys did a good job of narrowing and specifying the question in a way to minimize this issue, I don't know, but if it wasn't then I would say the results are less accurate.

Case in point, I met a drunk girl at a bar one time and she told me a guy just raped her. Well it turned out he grabbed her butt. Whether it was the alcohol talking, her emotional overreaction, or her lose definition of what rape means I don't know but in the end if she reported on a survey that she was raped it would be an inaccurate bit of data that would skew the results. I remember reports about how some huge number of girls on college campuses were victims of sexual assault but then when you looked at the way they asked the question it lumped any kind of unwanted advance, so if some drunk guy put his arm around a girl at a party and she didn't like it then it could have been counted as a "sexual assault". Heck, some crazy liberals believe that words are actual violence!

I am more interested in whether the firearm actually kept them safe (was used to keep them safe) than whether someone perceived that it kept them safe.