Meh.
To me it's about the first shot. 
Perp picked up gun by barrel and was throwing it over the fence with his back turned to PO and gun clearly in view.
 APPEARED  to me to pose no threat. 

So you're saying that it looked like the shoot was NOT justified? 

I haven't seen a video on this one though.  I'll try check later. 

Gotta love internet analysis where we have the luxury of time to do video analysis without any stress to formulate an opinion. On what really is a split second life or death decision process.  Would love to suit people up in SIMS gear and run force on force scenarios.  It's quite entertaining.

Gotta love internet analysis where we have the luxury of time to do video analysis without any stress to formulate an opinion. On what really is a split second life or death decision process.  Would love to suit people up in SIMS gear and run force on force scenarios.  It's quite entertaining.

Watching the video that covered the trial highlights, the lone defense witness went over the 2-6 tenths of a second prior to the officer pulling the trigger.  He used still screen captures for each tenth of a second to demonstrate the time between what prompted the officer to fire, and what happened between then and the actual shot.

Once you make the decision, you're now thinking about the shot, not IF you should shoot. 

If the Cops say, "Drop the gun!  Get down!  Show me your hands!", maybe you should not stay standing nor hold a firearm in your hand to toss it over a fence?  Maybe that's just me....   

It's good that everyone does their analysis on the video, whether it's right or wrong, so that everyone sees other peoples points of view and walks away a bit smarter.  Encourage participation.  Better to analyze and think about things before hand, and not when it actually happens to you.

I wish they included sound or indicate when the shot is taken, difficult to tell from the videos.  First shot seems it's justified because bad guy isn't obeying police commands to stop, exposes a gun, drops it and retrieves it,  and you don't know what baddy is going to do with it in that split second.  Second shot is questionable, probably shouldn't have been taken, but is reasonable under the conditions.

From reading the article and other information, it does not sound like a case of simply firing a "controlled pair" which is a term I don't like and not a more up to date methodology.  Anyone still teaching "controlled pairs" as a standard is about 15 years or so behind the curve. 

"Controlled pairs" is a bit old, but still taught or practiced.  Veteran shooters still use it and I imagine a lot of law enforcement does too.  I mean people still use weaver stance.

Once you feel threatened enough to fire the first round, nothing says you aren't allowed to empty the gun.

Stop the threat.  If one round doesn't say, "I'm serious!  You're going to die if you don't stop what you're doing!", then I don't know what else will.  Refuse to comply, and you get what you get.

Pistols are anemic at putting a full size adult down.  Unless you hit the brain or spinal cord on the first shot, even a heart shot can allow the threat to continue for half a minute or more -- enough time to shoot you dead.

Cop says drop the gun, and instead you toss it over a fence you intended to jump.  Maybe you should have just dropped the gun and raised your hands?

That's probably the racist in me talking.   

Lots of this. I was always taught that firing is the absolute last course of action. But when that time comes, you shoot in the face until they're on the ground, and then shoot some more. Not necessarily the most politically correct, but again, absolute last course of action.


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Would love to suit people up in SIMS gear and run force on force scenarios.  It's quite entertaining.

i agree
when KM concepts had the large space in kaneohe, i was able to do a class where we did various situations involving attackers with training knives with me using simunitions
every single time, i shot from the hip after drawing
while a few times i was able to "zip up" while shooting the perp, most times i ended up in a ball on the ground screaming like a little girl
 

Gotta love internet analysis where we have the luxury of time to do video analysis without any stress to formulate an opinion. On what really is a split second life or death decision process.  Would love to suit people up in SIMS gear and run force on force scenarios.  It's quite entertaining.

I'd love to do some of that.  We had a group that was trying to set up training like this that would start with airsoft and then eventually hopes of getting hands on sims.  Never went down, but that was mostly due to finding suitable land to do this.  One of the members has a large property out North Shore area and he moved to the mainland. 

i agree
when KM concepts had the large space in kaneohe, i was able to do a class where we did various situations involving attackers with training knives with me using simunitions
every single time, i shot from the hip after drawing
while a few times i was able to "zip up" while shooting the perp, most times i ended up in a ball on the ground screaming like a little girl
 

A buddy's brother was in the Army and tried to "enlist" a bunch of us to play Hajis in one of the simulated training villages.  It would've been with sims.  I was down!  Apparently, the command didn't like the "help" of civilians, so they shut that down.  Though I was down, I envisioned it being a bad idea a bunch of us yahoos going against a squad of trained soldiers.  Probably would've have ended up pretty close to what you mentioned above. 

A friend told me yesterday that he's taking his sons to paintball this weekend.  I told him that he'd better watchout or he's gonna come home with a paintball welt on his forehead.  He's a pretty senior USMC and even he laughed and agreed. 

This video has the footage at normal and 20% speed.



From the normal speed, I really couldn't tell anything.  At the 20% speed, I had known the guy was picking up the gun by the muzzle, but you can only really discern that in slow-mo. 

The commentary from CNN to me was, well, CNN. 

Still somewhat of a Monday morning QB job, but here goes:

Say the officer was responding knowing that the guy running had a gun, then for me, he gets a lot of the benefit of the doubt.  Personally, I don't see what's so hard about dropping gun and not reaching for it when ordered so by an officer.  Again, probably a Monday morning QB, but actually on what the guy who was shot and killed was thinking.  Yeah, maybe he had good intentions of throwing the gun away, but if he's already viewed as a threat as armed with a gun and trying to run away from the officers, then well. . .

As for controlled pairs (still) being taught, I can confirm that it is still taught in some professional firearms courses.  However, that also highlights the importance of seeking a variety of training.  You don't know what you don't know. 

i agree
when KM concepts had the large space in kaneohe, i was able to do a class where we did various situations involving attackers with training knives with me using simunitions
every single time, i shot from the hip after drawing
while a few times i was able to "zip up" while shooting the perp, most times i ended up in a ball on the ground screaming like a little girl
 

Sims can be expensive if someone shoots your light.