range closed (Read 11378 times)

eyeeatingfish

Re: range closed
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 09:04:40 PM »
Wonder if that would be considered limiting your right to keep and bear arms?    Since this is pretty much the only public place where a citizen on Oahu can publicly keep and bear their arms.

Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.

zippz

Re: range closed
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2020, 09:08:04 AM »
Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.

I agree with this.  However the government does make it difficult for people and businesses to construct their own range which is unconstitutional.  Also they should allow for shooting practice on public lands where possible, like they do in other states.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

changemyoil66

Re: range closed
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2020, 10:12:50 AM »
Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.

The law looks for reasons to make life difficult for gun owners.  Like how CA wants to ban any lead in heads on public ranges.  Which would be almost all ammo because they all have lead cores.  This would mean that gun owners will have to spend way more $ on zero lead rounds.  Less range users mean less gun buyers because it cost too much to shoot.  And they use the environment to justify it.  They're looking for a reason.

groveler

Re: range closed
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2020, 10:38:34 AM »
The law looks for reasons to make life difficult for gun owners.  Like how CA wants to ban any lead in heads on public ranges.  Which would be almost all ammo because they all have lead cores.  This would mean that gun owners will have to spend way more $ on zero lead rounds.  Less range users mean less gun buyers because it cost too much to shoot.  And they use the environment to justify it.  They're looking for a reason.
Most all my Russian and Chinese 7.62X39 is steel core.
No lead. 
Hawaiian Democrats probably will out law it calling it "armor piercing".

Heavies

Re: range closed
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 01:15:37 PM »
Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.

I didn't say shoot, I said keep and bear.... 

Any other public place where that is allowed on Oahu? 

Police station- shut down
Gun store or show- shut down
Place of business-  may or may not be shut down...

groveler

Re: range closed
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2020, 03:21:46 PM »
I didn't say shoot, I said keep and bear.... 

Any other public place where that is allowed on Oahu? 

Police station- shut down
Gun store or show- shut down
Place of business-  may or may not be shut down...
I just can't pass this up.
Our Mayor is as dumb as a post in some things.
but he was Civil defense guy for years.
Most of the Big Island is open for business.
At least the parts I care about.
Fuel, beer, food.
Who calls the cops or even talks to them?
Paid my insurance bills today.
I'm going to the dump tomorrow.
I'll probably help someone un-load and clean up.
This whole thing is BS.

TooFewPews

Re: range closed
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2020, 10:40:07 PM »
Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.

There was a recent 7th Circuit (federal court of appeals) decision regarding the ban of public ranges and the implications of the Second Amendment.  Ezell v. City of Chicago, 651 F.3d 684 (7th Cir. 2011).

https://casetext.com/case/ezell-v-city-of-chicago

It's an interesting read.  In the decision, the Court explains that the Second Amendment encompasses the right to be proficient in the use of firearms, which can be accomplished at a sanctioned range.

I'm pretty bummed that Caldwell decided to close the parks, municipal golf courses, and KHSC.  although i would love it if there was a constitutional right to play golf on sunday mornings (which i have been doing), I believe that courts will agree that there is a constitutional right to safely and legally shoot firearms (at the very least, in a designated area).  therefore, by closing KHSC and not providing a strong argument that the closure of this facility is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest, the city is essentially infringing on that Second Amendment right.

robtmc

Re: range closed
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2020, 08:37:30 AM »
It's an interesting read.  In the decision, the Court explains that the Second Amendment encompasses the right to be proficient in the use of firearms, which can be accomplished at a sanctioned range.
Some of the analyses of "well regulated" I have read would support the proficiency theme.

TooFewPews

Re: range closed
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2020, 08:52:13 AM »
Some of the analyses of "well regulated" I have read would support the proficiency theme.

i think the court is focusing more on the "bear" part of the Second Amendment ("...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed").

here is an excerpt from the 2011 Ezell case:

Quote
The plaintiffs challenge only the City's ban on firing ranges, so our first question is whether range training is categorically unprotected by the sized in both cases that the "central component" of the Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms for defense of self, family, and home. Heller, 554 U.S. at 599, 128 S.Ct. 2783; McDonald, 130 S.Ct. at 3048. The right to possess firearms for protection implies a corresponding right to acquire and maintain proficiency in their use; the core right wouldn't mean much without the training and practice that make it effective. Several passages in Heller support this understanding. Examining post-Civil War legal commentaries to confirm the founding-era "individual right" understanding of the Second Amendment, the Court quoted at length from the "massively popular 1868 Treatise on Constitutional Limitations" by judge and professor Thomas Cooley: "[T]o bear arms implies something more than the mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them . . .; it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in doing so the laws of public order." 554 U.S. at 616, 617-18, 128 S.Ct. 2783 (internal quotation marks omitted); see also id. at 619, 128 S.Ct. 2783 ("`No doubt, a citizen who keeps a gun or pistol under judicious precautions, practices in safe places the use of it, and in due time teaches his sons to do the same, exercises his individual right.'" (quoting BENJAMIN VAUGHAN ABBOTT, JUDGE AND JURY: A POPULAR EXPLANATION OF THE LEADING TOPICS IN THE LAW OF THE LAND 333 (1880))).

drck1000

Re: range closed
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2020, 08:58:32 AM »
Guess I'll be saving ammo. . .  :(

State championships were this weekend.  There were a number of sponsored shooters coming in from the mainland to shoot too. 

Jmoto808

Re: range closed
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2020, 02:37:27 PM »
I do not condone or do such behaviors or know anyone who does such behaviors. But by right if you have a valid hunting license you are allowed to bring a rifle and pistol (ALL hunting rules shall be enforced) into a valid hunting zone.

Jmoto808

Re: range closed
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2020, 02:39:26 PM »
I didn't say shoot, I said keep and bear.... 

Any other public place where that is allowed on Oahu? 

Police station- shut down
Gun store or show- shut down
Place of business-  may or may not be shut down...

Meant to tag you for the above post

drck1000

Re: range closed
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2020, 03:16:47 PM »
Meant to tag you for the above post
Hunting "tag"?  ???  :o

EEFishing "tag"?  ;)

 :rofl:

eyeeatingfish

Re: range closed
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2020, 12:18:16 PM »
There was a recent 7th Circuit (federal court of appeals) decision regarding the ban of public ranges and the implications of the Second Amendment.  Ezell v. City of Chicago, 651 F.3d 684 (7th Cir. 2011).

https://casetext.com/case/ezell-v-city-of-chicago

It's an interesting read.  In the decision, the Court explains that the Second Amendment encompasses the right to be proficient in the use of firearms, which can be accomplished at a sanctioned range.

I'm pretty bummed that Caldwell decided to close the parks, municipal golf courses, and KHSC.  although i would love it if there was a constitutional right to play golf on sunday mornings (which i have been doing), I believe that courts will agree that there is a constitutional right to safely and legally shoot firearms (at the very least, in a designated area).  therefore, by closing KHSC and not providing a strong argument that the closure of this facility is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest, the city is essentially infringing on that Second Amendment right.

Interesting, I will have to read that case. I would agree that if the government managed to ban all ranges then it would be infringing on the 2nd amendment. I just don't think a city/state owned and staffed park is mandated by the 2nd amendment. Plus these things are not a hard unbreakable rule, there would certainly be allowances for reasonable suspensions of the park.

TooFewPews

Re: range closed
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2020, 01:23:41 PM »
Interesting, I will have to read that case. I would agree that if the government managed to ban all ranges then it would be infringing on the 2nd amendment. I just don't think a city/state owned and staffed park is mandated by the 2nd amendment. Plus these things are not a hard unbreakable rule, there would certainly be allowances for reasonable suspensions of the park.

i imagine that this is an infringement on the Second Amendment because of the laws that we have in HI and also due to the nature of the C&C of Honolulu and its jurisdiction over the entire island of Oahu.

this is how i see it:
- it is technically illegal to discharge a firearm within a populated area in Hawaii
- the only place that you can legally discharge a firearm is at designated hunting areas and designated ranges (indoor ranges)
- I believe the indoor ranges require a membership to shoot there and they place other restrictions on what can and cannot be done
- it is technically illegal to "hunt" in HI with certain calibers because they are below the 1200 ft lbs minimum muzzle energy (pursuant HAR).  One of those calibers is 223 Rem.  A 223 Rem 55gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps out of a 16" barreled AR-15 is below the minimum muzzle energy.  This means that it is illegal for me to plink in designated hunting areas with my 16" barreled AR-15 with the commonly used 55gr FMJ.  arguably, this is one of the most common (if not the most common) configurations of the AR-15, which is also the most common centerfire rifle in america.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with FMJs so i won't be able to shoot my AK or most of my ARs.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with a 9mm handgun, which means i won't be able to shoot most of my semiauto pistols.  also, the case length of a 45 ACP does not meet the minimum "hunting" case length required by HAR.
- rimfire guns such as the 22LR are also prohibited for "hunting"

therefore, if the city does not provide a place to safely maintain proficiency with common legal firearms, then it is an infringement on the Second Amendment right of the residents of Oahu.

in response to your "reasonable suspensions" comment, a court will not look at whether an infringement is "reasonable" when it relates to important constitutional rights.  i think that this is something that a lot of people don't really understand.  right now the courts have not decided on whether to apply an intermediate scrutiny or strict scrutiny analysis to reviewing cases related to infringements on the Second Amendment.  regardless of which scrutiny analysis the court decides to go with, there is little justification for the government to close down the range without a finding that the range would promote a greater spread of COVID-19.  the benches are pretty damn far apart, i usually don't give hugs to everyone i see at the range, and people mostly keep their hands to themselves (not touching other people's stuff).

like i said, i would love to make the same argument for the re-opening the municipal golf courses, but maintaining proficiency in golfing is not a protected constitutional right.

changemyoil66

Re: range closed
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2020, 02:36:53 PM »
i imagine that this is an infringement on the Second Amendment because of the laws that we have in HI and also due to the nature of the C&C of Honolulu and its jurisdiction over the entire island of Oahu.

this is how i see it:
- it is technically illegal to discharge a firearm within a populated area in Hawaii
- the only place that you can legally discharge a firearm is at designated hunting areas and designated ranges (indoor ranges)
- I believe the indoor ranges require a membership to shoot there and they place other restrictions on what can and cannot be done
- it is technically illegal to "hunt" in HI with certain calibers because they are below the 1200 ft lbs minimum muzzle energy (pursuant HAR).  One of those calibers is 223 Rem.  A 223 Rem 55gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps out of a 16" barreled AR-15 is below the minimum muzzle energy.  This means that it is illegal for me to plink in designated hunting areas with my 16" barreled AR-15 with the commonly used 55gr FMJ.  arguably, this is one of the most common (if not the most common) configurations of the AR-15, which is also the most common centerfire rifle in america.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with FMJs so i won't be able to shoot my AK or most of my ARs.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with a 9mm handgun, which means i won't be able to shoot most of my semiauto pistols.  also, the case length of a 45 ACP does not meet the minimum "hunting" case length required by HAR.
- rimfire guns such as the 22LR are also prohibited for "hunting"

therefore, if the city does not provide a place to safely maintain proficiency with common legal firearms, then it is an infringement on the Second Amendment right of the residents of Oahu.

in response to your "reasonable suspensions" comment, a court will not look at whether an infringement is "reasonable" when it relates to important constitutional rights.  i think that this is something that a lot of people don't really understand.  right now the courts have not decided on whether to apply an intermediate scrutiny or strict scrutiny analysis to reviewing cases related to infringements on the Second Amendment.  regardless of which scrutiny analysis the court decides to go with, there is little justification for the government to close down the range without a finding that the range would promote a greater spread of COVID-19.  the benches are pretty damn far apart, i usually don't give hugs to everyone i see at the range, and people mostly keep their hands to themselves (not touching other people's stuff).

like i said, i would love to make the same argument for the re-opening the municipal golf courses, but maintaining proficiency in golfing is not a protected constitutional right.

Someone is not essential and working from home :rofl:

Jmoto808

Re: range closed
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2020, 05:33:03 PM »
i imagine that this is an infringement on the Second Amendment because of the laws that we have in HI and also due to the nature of the C&C of Honolulu and its jurisdiction over the entire island of Oahu.

this is how i see it:
- it is technically illegal to discharge a firearm within a populated area in Hawaii
- the only place that you can legally discharge a firearm is at designated hunting areas and designated ranges (indoor ranges)
- I believe the indoor ranges require a membership to shoot there and they place other restrictions on what can and cannot be done
- it is technically illegal to "hunt" in HI with certain calibers because they are below the 1200 ft lbs minimum muzzle energy (pursuant HAR).  One of those calibers is 223 Rem.  A 223 Rem 55gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps out of a 16" barreled AR-15 is below the minimum muzzle energy.  This means that it is illegal for me to plink in designated hunting areas with my 16" barreled AR-15 with the commonly used 55gr FMJ.  arguably, this is one of the most common (if not the most common) configurations of the AR-15, which is also the most common centerfire rifle in america.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with FMJs so i won't be able to shoot my AK or most of my ARs.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with a 9mm handgun, which means i won't be able to shoot most of my semiauto pistols.  also, the case length of a 45 ACP does not meet the minimum "hunting" case length required by HAR.
- rimfire guns such as the 22LR are also prohibited for "hunting"

therefore, if the city does not provide a place to safely maintain proficiency with common legal firearms, then it is an infringement on the Second Amendment right of the residents of Oahu.

in response to your "reasonable suspensions" comment, a court will not look at whether an infringement is "reasonable" when it relates to important constitutional rights.  i think that this is something that a lot of people don't really understand.  right now the courts have not decided on whether to apply an intermediate scrutiny or strict scrutiny analysis to reviewing cases related to infringements on the Second Amendment.  regardless of which scrutiny analysis the court decides to go with, there is little justification for the government to close down the range without a finding that the range would promote a greater spread of COVID-19.  the benches are pretty damn far apart, i usually don't give hugs to everyone i see at the range, and people mostly keep their hands to themselves (not touching other people's stuff).

like i said, i would love to make the same argument for the re-opening the municipal golf courses, but maintaining proficiency in golfing is not a protected constitutional right.

Good write up for people to refer to. One thing to note is. Hunting on private land is legal and does not stipulate caliber or ft lb of energy. But safety zones still apply, which means that you cant discharge a firearm within 50 yards from a building or paved road. Which is rare in a residential area lol. Also, even though its legal, discharging a centerfire cartridge within a couple hundred yards of people is probably not the smartest, even though technically not illegal.

Wchiro

Re: range closed
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2020, 09:13:39 PM »
I was just watching a YouTube video () and Jared mentioned that GOA (Gun Owners of America) wrote a letter to the White House and the Trump Administration just designated the Firearms Industry and anything related (gun ranges) as essential so gun stores etc. can remain open.  With that said will Caldwell open up Kokohead Shooting Range? 

ren

Re: range closed
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2020, 09:16:41 PM »
I think opening up any public place where a lot of people together is bad right now. The shooting complex is one of the most used City parks.
Deeds Not Words

TooFewPews

Re: range closed
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2020, 10:13:05 PM »
I was just watching a YouTube video () and Jared mentioned that GOA (Gun Owners of America) wrote a letter to the White House and the Trump Administration just designated the Firearms Industry and anything related (gun ranges) as essential so gun stores etc. can remain open.  With that said will Caldwell open up Kokohead Shooting Range?

Does this help?

https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce

Federal guidance for “essential workforce” lists range staff.

“Workers supporting the operation of firearm or ammunition product manufacturers, retailers, importers, distributors, and shooting ranges.”

So how is it that the KHSC staff are suggested as “essential” but the mayor is unwilling to open the range that they work at? This makes no sense.