Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss (Read 6178 times)

drck1000

Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« on: November 02, 2020, 03:40:28 PM »
Chassis or rifle stock?  Why?

Features you desire? 

Include some context of your shooting interests.

I'm looking to replace the Hogue stock on my Rem 700 .308 SPS bolt action.  Something I had actually wanted to do many years ago, but put on hold once the steel got taken down at Koko Head.  Getting back into shooting my Rem 700 lately, so am reengergized in replacing the stock. 

I had been looking at McMillan, Manners, H-S Precision, A-1 and some others.  But have been looking more into chassis systems. 

ren

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2020, 05:10:55 PM »
I think chassis systems are the future - no bedding, material assuming that its a metal would not be prone to the elements. I don't own a chassis system but I have had some experience bedding a few bolt actions - Savage, Remington 40x. Bedding can be a chore if not done right and not understanding what you are trying to accomplish. With that in mind I'd imagine designing and machining a good chassis would also take into account the same concepts in bedding a traditional stock.
I have a  McMillan, stock Remington stock that I bedded. The best epoxy is DevCon plastic steel and it does have a shelf life. I could only find it at Graingers. Doesn't shrink and its pretty tough.
With chassis systems you can also add accessories but I'd also imagine a metal chassis would be more heavier than a fiberglass stock i.e. Manners or McMillan. Another consideration is that the military acquired chassis systems. Some snipers said they liked the chassis, some didn't. I never handled one.
Deeds Not Words

aaronc5362

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2020, 07:28:32 PM »
Mdt chassis are nice. I had one for my tikka and it was light weight compared to the aics 1.0 i had for my rem.

Both had fixed stocks though. Not the folding. But the good part of the mdt was that it had mlok and i had a dpare ar grip and buttstock. All i had to do was buy a buffer tube. Iirc mdt supplied the hardware to bolt it all on. This was years ago, maybe 2013-2015 before i moved houses.

myanmar1

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2020, 08:24:39 PM »
  I have the McMillan A5, looks and feels awesome. Maybe it's because you choose the options and colors, or maybe because I waited so long
for it to be delivered. Who knows! 
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!” — Benjamin Franklin

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2020, 10:48:32 AM »
I think chassis systems are the future - no bedding, material assuming that its a metal would not be prone to the elements. I don't own a chassis system but I have had some experience bedding a few bolt actions - Savage, Remington 40x. Bedding can be a chore if not done right and not understanding what you are trying to accomplish. With that in mind I'd imagine designing and machining a good chassis would also take into account the same concepts in bedding a traditional stock.
I have a  McMillan, stock Remington stock that I bedded. The best epoxy is DevCon plastic steel and it does have a shelf life. I could only find it at Graingers. Doesn't shrink and its pretty tough.
With chassis systems you can also add accessories but I'd also imagine a metal chassis would be more heavier than a fiberglass stock i.e. Manners or McMillan. Another consideration is that the military acquired chassis systems. Some snipers said they liked the chassis, some didn't. I never handled one.
After a bit more research on what shooters (PRS, benchrest, etc) use different stocks, seems like chassis systems are the future as well as very much taking over many of the sectors.  I'm personally still navigating my way in long(er) range shooting and not quite sure what I want/need, so the ability to adjust the various things about chassis systems are quite attractive.  That said, I've always been partial to the McMillan A5 and a few other similar type stocks from other companies. 

I wouldn't be doing the majority of the work myself.  Will be having a gunsmith with lots of experience in bolt actions do most of the work.  Seems like many of the stocks I have my eye on are 3-6 month lead times though. . .  :-[

Good point on military use as well as competitors.  That's certainly a good indicator of "tried and true". 

Mdt chassis are nice. I had one for my tikka and it was light weight compared to the aics 1.0 i had for my rem.

Both had fixed stocks though. Not the folding. But the good part of the mdt was that it had mlok and i had a dpare ar grip and buttstock. All i had to do was buy a buffer tube. Iirc mdt supplied the hardware to bolt it all on. This was years ago, maybe 2013-2015 before i moved houses.
MDT is one of the companies I am currently looking at.  They have LOTS of adjustability and options, and good reviews.  The MDT also has the folding stock adapter, which I am interested in. 

  I have the McMillan A5, looks and feels awesome. Maybe it's because you choose the options and colors, or maybe because I waited so long
for it to be delivered. Who knows! 
The A5 is still high on my list of stocks.  They are 6 months lead time right now though. . .

kala201

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2020, 10:00:25 PM »
I purchased a slightly used MDT LSS chassis for my Ruger Scout rifle from EBay.  I’m currently waiting for my Mil-Spec buffer tube and Bravo Company Mod 0 grip to come in.  I’ll be running a AB Arms Urban Sniper stock I picked from the For Sale section.  Once I get it put together I’ll post a pic.  I did a lot of research - if that’s what you call reading through hundreds of various forum posts on the matter and various reviews and write ups.  In the end it really did seem like a dead even draw between the 2 in terms of improved accuracy.  A McMillan stock or any high end stock properly fitted and bedded by a trained gunsmith seemed to slightly out perform the chassis systems by a hair, but I attributed that to proper bedding and tuning by a professional.  A lot of the chassis were put together at home or in man cave workshop because it’s typically a straight forward drop in.

In the end I went with the MDT chassis because of cost and adjustability to fit it specifically to my body and for hunting.  If my wife wants to shoot it I can adjust the length of pull to fit her too.  If something breaks or doesn’t suit my needs I can fix it or swap it out.  I really liked the option of being able to make my rifle “mission” specific.  Because the MDT chassis uses the M-Lok system I can quickly add a bipod and I can change my sling attachment points easily.  If ever get to go hunting on the mainland I can even attach an IR laser to be used with a NV scope.

I know my lowly scout rifle will never be a truly precision tack driving rifle but if I can irk out a little more accuracy and make it customizable to my needs and ergonomics then for me it’s a win.  I shot old wood stock rifles since small kid times but got frustrated when I started hunting because they never seemed to fit me exactly how I wanted.  It wasn’t until I shot my first AR that I really had something that fit me.  Whatever your choice I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer as long as it fits you and how you plan to shoot.

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2020, 08:36:26 AM »
I purchased a slightly used MDT LSS chassis for my Ruger Scout rifle from EBay.  I’m currently waiting for my Mil-Spec buffer tube and Bravo Company Mod 0 grip to come in.  I’ll be running a AB Arms Urban Sniper stock I picked from the For Sale section.  Once I get it put together I’ll post a pic.  I did a lot of research - if that’s what you call reading through hundreds of various forum posts on the matter and various reviews and write ups.  In the end it really did seem like a dead even draw between the 2 in terms of improved accuracy.  A McMillan stock or any high end stock properly fitted and bedded by a trained gunsmith seemed to slightly out perform the chassis systems by a hair, but I attributed that to proper bedding and tuning by a professional.  A lot of the chassis were put together at home or in man cave workshop because it’s typically a straight forward drop in.

In the end I went with the MDT chassis because of cost and adjustability to fit it specifically to my body and for hunting.  If my wife wants to shoot it I can adjust the length of pull to fit her too.  If something breaks or doesn’t suit my needs I can fix it or swap it out.  I really liked the option of being able to make my rifle “mission” specific.  Because the MDT chassis uses the M-Lok system I can quickly add a bipod and I can change my sling attachment points easily.  If ever get to go hunting on the mainland I can even attach an IR laser to be used with a NV scope.

I know my lowly scout rifle will never be a truly precision tack driving rifle but if I can irk out a little more accuracy and make it customizable to my needs and ergonomics then for me it’s a win.  I shot old wood stock rifles since small kid times but got frustrated when I started hunting because they never seemed to fit me exactly how I wanted.  It wasn’t until I shot my first AR that I really had something that fit me.  Whatever your choice I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer as long as it fits you and how you plan to shoot.
From my initial research, of the MDT offerings, I've been looking at the LSS and the XRS.  I am really interested in the adjustable LOP feature (for any stock), but have also been reading about how it can lead to problems, at least if not done right.  Seems like there are a few chassis systems that are tops on the PRS list that have adjustable LOP, so seems like they are quality offerings out there.  But the quality comes with $$$, which like anything firearms related, is expected.  I am typically ok with spending more for quality, but in this case, I am still in the "I don't exactly know what I want or need" phase. 

I'm still REALLY wanting to get a McMillan, mostly because I've always wanted one.  But eff me the 6 month lead time.  There are some H-S offerings that I am interested that are in-stock. 

Have been reading about the chassis vs rifle stock comparisons, including the accuracy issue.  For me, I am pretty sure any system won't be the limiting factor, but it is good to know it's not the equipment.  Any doubt introduced can have effects, which I saw when shooting recently.  It wasn't really gear related though.  I was on a thread recently where the MDT rep chimed in here and there.  That really impressed me.  Seems like there are a few companies that chime in here and there, like MDT, Nightforce, etc.  Really helpful insights that they share. 

Yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong, at least here.  All about learning and that the Hogue stock on there now is crap.  Went down a similar path with ARs and just learned by trying this, and trying that.  Can get expensive, especially with the scopes I've been looking at. . .  :shake:

ren

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2020, 08:44:12 AM »
From my initial research, of the MDT offerings, I've been looking at the LSS and the XRS.  I am really interested in the adjustable LOP feature (for any stock), but have also been reading about how it can lead to problems, at least if not done right.  Seems like there are a few chassis systems that are tops on the PRS list that have adjustable LOP, so seems like they are quality offerings out there.  But the quality comes with $$$, which like anything firearms related, is expected.  I am typically ok with spending more for quality, but in this case, I am still in the "I don't exactly know what I want or need" phase. 

I'm still REALLY wanting to get a McMillan, mostly because I've always wanted one.  But eff me the 6 month lead time.  There are some H-S offerings that I am interested that are in-stock. 

Have been reading about the chassis vs rifle stock comparisons, including the accuracy issue.  For me, I am pretty sure any system won't be the limiting factor, but it is good to know it's not the equipment.  Any doubt introduced can have effects, which I saw when shooting recently.  It wasn't really gear related though.  I was on a thread recently where the MDT rep chimed in here and there.  That really impressed me.  Seems like there are a few companies that chime in here and there, like MDT, Nightforce, etc.  Really helpful insights that they share. 

Yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong, at least here.  All about learning and that the Hogue stock on there now is crap.  Went down a similar path with ARs and just learned by trying this, and trying that.  Can get expensive, especially with the scopes I've been looking at. . .  :shake:

try Manners
https://mannersstocks.com/
Deeds Not Words

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2020, 09:10:55 AM »
try Manners
https://mannersstocks.com/
Yup. Looking at them too. The BA Comp chassis looks badass. Expensive, but badass.

jonjon

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2020, 10:34:54 PM »
Took the Magpul Precision Rifle course a while back and Caylen Wojcik the director of the course at the time swore by the KRG Whiskey-3 Chassis (W3C) chassis. He has since founded the the training company https://moderndaysniper.com/ I believe for his hunting rifle he uses a Proof Research carbon fiber stock. I personally have one Rem 700 mounted in an AICS 1.5 and another one mounted in an Eberlestock Stealth Chasis, will probably switch out the AICS for the KRG in the future.

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2020, 08:00:59 AM »
Took the Magpul Precision Rifle course a while back and Caylen Wojcik the director of the course at the time swore by the KRG Whiskey-3 Chassis (W3C) chassis. He has since founded the the training company https://moderndaysniper.com/ I believe for his hunting rifle he uses a Proof Research carbon fiber stock. I personally have one Rem 700 mounted in an AICS 1.5 and another one mounted in an Eberlestock Stealth Chasis, will probably switch out the AICS for the KRG in the future.
Ahh, thanks.  Was checking out their site last night and they definitely have a lot of features that I like.  I am trying to plan for a class for long(er) range shooting on the mainland, but waiting for things with travel to settle down a bit more.  Work is pretty crazy right now, so will have to wait for a bit.  Good timing as it will allow me some time to get my Rem 700 in "better" shape.

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2020, 08:08:09 AM »
Right now it's H-S Precision and MDT as top choices, at least right now.  I very much like the offerings from Masterpiece, Manners, and McMillan, but the pricing and lead times on those aren't quite what I want.  That and at least for now, I'll be working with my stock Rem action and barrel, so my current thinking is run with stocks in the $500-600 range and shoot the setup more.  Then if I stick with it, look to building a setup "all the way". 

I'm usually very much an advocate of buy once and cry once when it comes to many things.  But with the state of things right now, I have a hard time justify going with the better stocks/chassis with the stock barrel.  That may change as I chat with my gunsmith soon, but that's where I'm at right now.  Who knows, after I chat with my gunsmith, I may be looking at barrels. 

dogman

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2020, 07:18:11 PM »
I picked up an MDT LSS a couple of years ago, Black Friday, for $250. They were coming out with the gen 2's soon after. It requires an AR buffer tube and pistol grip. With a six position buffer tube, there is plenty of LOP adjustment and I use the cheapo LuthAR adjustable AR stock and I forget what brand folding stock adaptor.

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2020, 07:27:07 PM »
I picked up an MDT LSS a couple of years ago, Black Friday, for $250. They were coming out with the gen 2's soon after. It requires an AR buffer tube and pistol grip. With a six position buffer tube, there is plenty of LOP adjustment and I use the cheapo LuthAR adjustable AR stock and I forget what brand folding stock adaptor.
Been looking real hard at the MDT LSS-XL with fixed stock and add the folding connector. Will keep an eye out for Black Friday sales for the stock/chassis and like a new scope.

ren

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2020, 07:49:50 PM »
Eliseo has a good following in the HP and precision shooting community
http://www.gotxring.com/
Deeds Not Words

Jmoto808

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2020, 11:07:43 PM »
Just sharing my experiences and 2 cents on the topic. YMMV. just a fyi, im a 100% stock guy but my bro uses 100% chassis. Ill try to list some "topics" below with discussion.

1. Cost savings (chassis > stock)
-prob the most impt factor for people. I would say a cheap chassis will pretty much always give you more bang for your buck when it comes to budget options. By bang for your buck im talking adjustable LOP / cheek, arca rail or picatinny attachment, etc. Greatest example i can think of is the KRG bravo. Prob my #1 recommendation for any new shooter or person who wants to dip their toes into the aftermarket realm and itll only set them back around 350$. There is a hidden cost behind stocks that most dont realize. Yes you can buy a mini chassis from manners and itll fit pretty much all rem 700 models, but if you go with a custom action you might have issues with bolt hand clearance, side bolt release, or action eject port alignment. These things r non existent issues on a chassis. ANother thing is you might need to end up bedding a stock to get a better fit. So yes you could buy a mcmillan a5 for maybe 500 bucks, but then you need to add a m5 DBM (200ish), then possibly bed (up to 400$) and now your mcmillan is a 1100 dolllar investment that really is married up to one receiver. Oh and if you want more modularity such as a arca rail, then you can either drill and bed T nuts yourself and possibly ruin it aesthetically, or send it off to a gunsmith for an extra added fee. I would say the cheapest stock i would buy would be a grayboe (same company as mcmillan pretty much) which costs around 500ish for non adjustable a5 with DBM included.
 
2. Features (chassis > stock)
-As a stock guy, adjustability and modularity is something that will always be lagging behind the chassis community. There are stocks that are finally getting the message and we are seeing things such as the Manners PRS-TCS. The issue with most stocks is that you are "fixed" when it comes to features such as palm swell to trigger distance, pistol grip thickness / shape, weight, and action compatibility. Its hard to explain, but if you ever get behind a manners, mcmillan, and foundation stock. Each has unique palm swells and hand feel. Theres really no way to adjust that unless you purchase a different variation amongst them (such as foundations exodus, genesis, and centurion). And its not very realistic to go out and feel each one since our prs community here is nill and ive probably seen only a handful of higher end stuff at the range (definately see way more chassis than stocks)j.

3. Feel (subjective, but i say stock > chassis by a landslide)
IMO what makes the feel of a stock great is the material that is used. There is something about the warmth and density of a fiberglass molded stock or micarta (foundation) or wood that cannot be replicated by a chassis. That interferance between the shooters hand and stock to me is what gets me and makes me willing to put up with every other irritating / costly factor. I would definitely recomend anyone get behind a mcmillan A5 or manners or foundation stock and just popoff a couple rounds, its def eye opening and makes u feel "justified" spending the money. But like i said above, stocks are SOOO varied with grips and hand placement that its hard to figure out which one youd like. I usually take my foundation (vuddo 22) and mcmillan a5 to the range and have let multiple people shoot each one just so they can test it out. Also when you shoot a top quality stock, the gun has a sort of dead feeling when it goes off. Most chassis, regardless of price, will have a sort of twang or ring to it when shooting due to metal vibration. Chassis do however allow you to adjust almost all grip positions (MPA, etc) and customize your hand placement. The downside is the "feel" of the grip. Chassis always inherently use a plasticy or metal feel to their grips which IMO just dont feel as great. But like i said, you just need to feel it to figure out which one you like best. The ARC xylo does try to blend this by using wooden a5 style grip onto a metal chassis giving you the best of both worlds.

4. Availability (Tie ish)
The only real issue with stocks is if you want a truly custom order. If you can settle for a color you may not like or missing on minor features, the mcmillan site or manners site or ALTUS always have a wide variety in stock. I usually just buy the model i want and maybe send off for cerakote or other smithing work in the feature.

5. Application / weight (tie)
I was gonna say stocks easily have the advantage for weight and hunting. But there are some solid options for chassis now that make it practical. for example my hunting build on a gunwerks magnus carbon stock with carbon barrel is similar in weight to my brothers MPA ultralight chassis with carbon barrel. His build could be lighter if he went to another chassis such as the new ish XLR magnessium chassis.

6. Options (tie)
Both stock and chassis brands and models have exploded over the last 5 ish years. So there is a huge plethora of options for one to chose from, both in the budget and higher end stuff.

For me personally my favorites are going to be
1. Mcmillan A5 (best feel of any stock ive laid behind)
2. Paradigm carbon a5
3. Foundation genesis (its reach is slightly farther from trigger than the mcmillan so thats why its lower rated). It does feel nice tho with the micarta material.
4. Magnus from gunwerks (grip is a touch too slim but it works well for hunting)
5. Manners T6A (idk why but i just find it absurdbly uncomfortable for me anatomically)

Hope this helps.

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2020, 09:06:43 AM »
Just sharing my experiences and 2 cents on the topic. YMMV. just a fyi, im a 100% stock guy but my bro uses 100% chassis. Ill try to list some "topics" below with discussion.

SNIP

For me personally my favorites are going to be
1. Mcmillan A5 (best feel of any stock ive laid behind)
2. Paradigm carbon a5
3. Foundation genesis (its reach is slightly farther from trigger than the mcmillan so thats why its lower rated). It does feel nice tho with the micarta material.
4. Magnus from gunwerks (grip is a touch too slim but it works well for hunting)
5. Manners T6A (idk why but i just find it absurdbly uncomfortable for me anatomically)

Hope this helps.
Awesome!  Yes, it helps a lot and thank you for taking the time to write/share.  Much appreciated.  I'll definitely be going back to read closer later. 

Cost/savings is a consideration, but I def don't mind spending more.  Right now, I'm thinking it's a waste to get an top notch stock and still shoot a stock barrel.  That and I'll be shooting factory match ammo, at least for a while more.  Would a better stock help?  Probably, but one of those thing where I think the difference is wasted on me.  I did look more into the KRG that you mentioned and mentioned above as well.  I really am interested in the MPA and Manners though.  Still, if I could find an A5 in stock or lead time was less, I'd probably go with that. 

I was looking into Manners more, including their rifle stocks, as well. 

Then now I have to be on the lookout for ammo.  I have a decent amount, but would very much like to have more, especially when I start shooting more.  Will just have to bite the bullet and pay a bit of premium.  Sucks that I was starting to get into this almost 10 years ago and then took a break, which mostly coincided with all the steel being taken down at KHSC.   :(

jonjon

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2020, 06:24:34 PM »
Don"t know if you already read this but just in case https://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/15/precision-rifle-chassis-stocks-pros-use/ it's from 2017 but still very interesting  :shaka:

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2020, 07:03:40 PM »
Don"t know if you already read this but just in case https://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/15/precision-rifle-chassis-stocks-pros-use/ it's from 2017 but still very interesting  :shaka:
Thanks! Yeah, read that one. Here’s another I was reading recently.

https://precisionriflecomponents.com/what-the-joes-use-top-stocks-and-chassis-used-by-local-prs-competitors-in-2019/

drck1000

Re: Precision Rifle - Aftermarket/Replacement Stocks - Discuss
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2020, 08:47:57 AM »
Manners T6A and McMillan A3-5 are top 1-2 right now.  Big consideration is what is available soon.  Still eyeing a couple of chassis, including MDT and MPA (and others), but those two are leading right now.  A lot of it admittedly is what I've wanted for a long time.  Dammit, maybe I'll invest in a Rem 700 action and start from there with a second rifle.   ;D