deadly force bill. (Read 8076 times)

London808

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2019, 06:28:27 PM »
I'm considering putting forward a bill to change Hawaii's use of deadly force law. What do you guys think?

§703-304 Use of force in self-protection.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.

(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to
(A)protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.
(B)deadly force is necessary to stop unlawful forced entry to the actor's home, vehicle, place of sojourn, place of business or employment.
(c)deadly force is necessary to stop a FELONY crime against the actor's property during the hours of darkness. Hours of darkness are defined as one half-hour after sunset and one-half hour before sunrise.

Forced entry to or the brandishing of a weapon on the actor's property shall in itself be evidence of intent to cause serious bodily harm or death to the actor.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

London808

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2019, 06:31:57 PM »
The reason for the night time part is simple, Bad guys do bad things at night.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

Direjackalope

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2019, 08:33:17 PM »
Even if some of you feel it's imperfect it's still better than what we have.  HPD pretty much washed their hands of property crime and unless I'm living in clown world I'm pretty sure the key function of government is suppose to be the protection of personal property.  Great news!  Citizen empowerment is free!

eyeeatingfish

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2019, 08:53:52 PM »
It flew in TX.  But you are right there are many scenarios where mistakes could have happened (what if's).  But when someone sees 3 people breaking into his car, the chances of a mistake are reduced.

Unless they are trying to break the window to rescue a kid locked in a hot car.... Of course not very likely but still one of those odd scenarios that could happen and would be disastrous

eyeeatingfish

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2019, 09:00:25 PM »
I'm considering putting forward a bill to change Hawaii's use of deadly force law. What do you guys think?

§703-304 Use of force in self-protection.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.

(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to
(A)protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.
(B)deadly force is necessary to stop unlawful forced entry to the actor's home, vehicle, place of sojourn, place of business or employment.
(c)deadly force is necessary to stop a FELONY crime against the actor's property during the hours of darkness. Hours of darkness are defined as one half-hour after sunset and one-half hour before sunrise.

Forced entry to or the brandishing of a weapon on the actor's property shall in itself be evidence of intent to cause serious bodily harm or death to the actor.

I like most of it but I would suggest taking out use of deadly force to protect property. I think that will shut off any chance of changing the law, they will see the suggestion of deadly force to stop a property crime and they won't even take it seriously.

I noticed there is no mention of a requirement to attempt retreat is safe before using force. I am guess you are aware of it but you are basically putting forward a stand your ground law.

Also, I would suggest adding in that a person can protect themself or another because you can use force to protect someone else, not just yourself.

eyeeatingfish

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2019, 09:01:22 PM »
HPD pretty much washed their hands of property crime

How do you come to that conclusion?

zippz

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2019, 09:24:19 PM »
The biggest challenge is how do you get Karl Rhoads to support this bill?  All firearms/self-defense bills need his support to pass.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

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changemyoil66

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2019, 09:40:26 PM »
Unless they are trying to break the window to rescue a kid locked in a hot car.... Of course not very likely but still one of those odd scenarios that could happen and would be disastrous
A man weilding a shedge hammer bashes a persons door in yelling hes going harm the owner. What if this guy was talking to someone via blue tooth and not at the occupants. He bashes the door in because he smelled smoke and thought there was a fire.

See i can make the obvious sound probable also.

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zippz

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2019, 10:06:21 PM »
Whoops sorry, thought I was writing a PM

Since I'm here, something that would be more likely to pass is for the State to automatically pay a person for attorneys fees and damages if they went through a trial and were found not guilty due to self-defense.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:17:18 PM by zippz »
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Flapp_Jackson

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2019, 12:07:00 AM »
Whoops sorry, thought I was writing a PM

Since I'm here, something that would be more likely to pass is for the State to automatically pay a person for attorneys fees and damages if they went through a trial and were found not guilty due to self-defense.

Florida kind of took care of that in their process.  If a person claimed self defense, the prosecution had the burden of submitting evidence in a pre-trial hearing that showed their was no justification for self defense.  Unless the judge ruled for the prosecution, charges were dropped.

I believe they recently changed that so the burden is now on the defendant to demonstrate justification.  If successful, there is no trial.  if not, their claim of self defense would obviously be weak without additional evidence.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

RSN172

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2019, 05:14:09 AM »
How do you come to that conclusion?
Susan Ballard was on the news saying HPD will not waste resources investigating property crimes unless there was a likelihood of them being able to solve it.
You need to watch TV more.

changemyoil66

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2019, 09:01:02 AM »
Susan Ballard was on the news saying HPD will not waste resources investigating property crimes unless there was a likelihood of them being able to solve it.
You need to watch TV more.

So what she's saying is unless it's  a slam dunk, they're not going to waste their time.  Like how when by car got broken into and my NRA instructor neighbor ID'd the guy inside my car, the state didn't file any charges.  So he got away free for costing me $496 for a new driver side window that he bashed in.

drck1000

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2019, 03:12:58 PM »
The reason for the night time part is simple, Bad guys do bad things at night.

BLUF: Commend you on putting forward the effort to effect pro 2a change.   :thumbsup:

I get the rationale that you mentioned.  However, consider that there are a large (and growing) number of home invasion and burglaries (which is a felony) during the day.  Especially in the "older" neighborhoods like Pearl City and Aiea where I've had numerous friends reporting their parent's homes (retirees) were broken into during the day.  That and there are probably a large number of folks that work nights and are home during the days. 

Again, commend you on your hard work.  Keep up the good fight!  :shaka:

drck1000

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2019, 03:15:55 PM »
I'd be careful with those Texas stories.  The laws vary a lot by county and some are in VERY open rural areas (much like Puna  ;D ).  Anyways, a good buddy is a cop in a smaller department just outside Houston and I used to point out the many stories I heard about Texas and pretty "generic" defense laws, which I includes defense of property in many cases.  That said, it appears that many stories are exaggerated or downright urban legend inflated. 

changemyoil66

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2019, 06:53:30 PM »
I'd be careful with those Texas stories.  The laws vary a lot by county and some are in VERY open rural areas (much like Puna  ;D ).  Anyways, a good buddy is a cop in a smaller department just outside Houston and I used to point out the many stories I heard about Texas and pretty "generic" defense laws, which I includes defense of property in many cases.  That said, it appears that many stories are exaggerated or downright urban legend inflated.
This was a case study in my law class. So pretty sure its accurate. Cant speak about other stories.

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eyeeatingfish

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2019, 09:52:52 PM »
A man weilding a shedge hammer bashes a persons door in yelling hes going harm the owner. What if this guy was talking to someone via blue tooth and not at the occupants. He bashes the door in because he smelled smoke and thought there was a fire.

See i can make the obvious sound probable also.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Ok, that is a whole different level of unprobability lol

eyeeatingfish

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2019, 09:57:08 PM »
Susan Ballard was on the news saying HPD will not waste resources investigating property crimes unless there was a likelihood of them being able to solve it.
You need to watch TV more.

Sounds like triaging cases.

So if someone's car gets broken into and there are no surveillance cameras, witnesses, or evidence to identify the suspect, it would make sense that they set the case aside and chase a different case that they had solid leads on.

groveler

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2019, 12:06:27 PM »
Sounds like triaging cases.

So if someone's car gets broken into and there are no surveillance cameras, witnesses, or evidence to identify the suspect, it would make sense that they set the case aside and chase a different case that they had solid leads on.
I think it is more of people having an un-realistic expectation of what police really do.
Their job is to document crime, and collect revenue.
Finding your "stuff" isn't important, that is why you have insurance.

eyeeatingfish

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2019, 09:27:16 PM »
I think it is more of people having an un-realistic expectation of what police really do.
Their job is to document crime, and collect revenue.
Finding your "stuff" isn't important, that is why you have insurance.

Well they like to find the bad guys because if you get the bad guy off the street you just make less work for yourself in the future.

The detectives aren't collecting any revenue, only your traffic cops and beat cops are giving out citations.

macsak

Re: deadly force bill.
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2019, 09:48:10 PM »
Well they like to find the bad guys because if you get the bad guy off the street you just make less work for yourself in the future.

The detectives aren't collecting any revenue, only your traffic cops and beat cops are giving out citations.

you're using the wrong pronouns...