AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol (Read 7292 times)

Lawfoolly

AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« on: September 11, 2020, 06:14:53 AM »
Hello! I'm new to the forum and to Hawaii. I haven't been able to find an answer to AR Registration question now that "Other" is an option. I'd like to purchase an AR stripped lower for the purpose of building it into an AR Pistol in the future. Are FFLs able to register an AR stripped lower as "Pistol" on the 4473 even though there is an "Other" option now?

changemyoil66

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 09:34:57 AM »
I dont have time now, but there are a few threads on this.  Try searching AR Pistol.

IIRC when registering the lower with HPD, you have to make sure it says "pistol" on the registration.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 10:48:51 AM »
The OLD method, before the ATF added Other (frame, receiver, etc.) to the 4473 was to have the FFL mark "pistol" when the intention was to build an AR pistol.

Now, just have them mark the "Other" box.  If Long Gun (rifle or shotgun) remains unmarked, you are fine for building a rifle OR a pistol from your stripped lower.

Make sure to look at the form carefully when signing to make sure the FFL didn't accidentally mark more than one box.

If you are making multiple purchases, among them a long gun, then you should buy the receiver on one day, and everything else on another.  Otherwise, the FFL will fill out one 4473 for all your firearms in that transaction, marking all boxes that apply.  If both "long gun" and "other" are marked, someone at the firearm desk at HPD might argue that there's no way to tell that the receiver was not included as "long gun" AND "other".

Makes no sense, but nothing about the process makes much sense.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Lawfoolly

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 12:40:14 PM »
The OLD method, before the ATF added Other (frame, receiver, etc.) to the 4473 was to have the FFL mark "pistol" when the intention was to build an AR pistol.

Now, just have them mark the "Other" box.  If Long Gun (rifle or shotgun) remains unmarked, you are fine for building a rifle OR a pistol from your stripped lower.

Make sure to look at the form carefully when signing to make sure the FFL didn't accidentally mark more than one box.

If you are making multiple purchases, among them a long gun, then you should buy the receiver on one day, and everything else on another.  Otherwise, the FFL will fill out one 4473 for all your firearms in that transaction, marking all boxes that apply.  If both "long gun" and "other" are marked, someone at the firearm desk at HPD might argue that there's no way to tell that the receiver was not included as "long gun" AND "other".

Makes no sense, but nothing about the process makes much sense.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Thanks for the response! So I know that one day I will move back to CA, I'd like  to have the lower registered as a Pistol. Is there anyway a stripped lower can be registered as a "Pistol" instead of "Other"?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 01:53:10 PM »
Thanks for the response! So I know that one day I will move back to CA, I'd like  to have the lower registered as a Pistol. Is there anyway a stripped lower can be registered as a "Pistol" instead of "Other"?

Make sure when you register the new receiver with HPD they are aware you intend to build it as a pistol.  They may need/want to annotate that in the description.  Or, they might wait until you take the completed firearm in to update the registration to "pistol".

As long as the initial HPD registration form says "receiver only" or "AR pistol receiver," and not something like "rifle receiver," you'll be able to take it in to update the registration as an AR pistol without any issues -- no guarantee, of course.  HPD makes this stuff up as the go sometimes.

What's most important is the 4473, because whatever the item was classified as on that form is how it must always be classified.  HPD can correct a mistake on their registration, but only if the 4473 contradicts them.

That's my understanding of it.

"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2020, 08:03:19 PM »
If you want to register a stripped AR lower as a pistol frame with HPD, you have to go through the same process as if you are acquiring a handgun. Purchase lower but do not take possession, apply for handgun permit to acquire, two week wait, pick up permit to acquire, acquire lower and register. The gun shop / FFL may not know the correct procedure. At one time you had to permanently attach the magazine before HPD would register. If not done to HPD's satisfaction, they would confiscate the lower. When I checked late last year it was not necessary to attach a magazine to register. 

Lawfoolly

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2020, 04:44:25 PM »
If you want to register a stripped AR lower as a pistol frame with HPD, you have to go through the same process as if you are acquiring a handgun. Purchase lower but do not take possession, apply for handgun permit to acquire, two week wait, pick up permit to acquire, acquire lower and register. The gun shop / FFL may not know the correct procedure. At one time you had to permanently attach the magazine before HPD would register. If not done to HPD's satisfaction, they would confiscate the lower. When I checked late last year it was not necessary to attach a magazine to register. 

Thank you so much for the reply. When your paper says "*Converted to full pistol", did you bring in a fully built AR pistol?

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2020, 07:15:47 PM »
Thank you so much for the reply. When your paper says "*Converted to full pistol", did you bring in a fully built AR pistol?
I registered the stripped lower as a pistol frame, then took the completed pistol back a couple weeks later with the registration "frame only" and HPD added the "converted to full pistol..."
 

aaronc5362

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2020, 04:12:11 PM »
I dont mean to hijack this thread. The last time i read about ar pistols in hawaii, you had to permanently attach a magazine (welded somehow) to the lower .

You really dont need to do that anymore?!?

I been out of the game for years .

dogman

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2020, 09:02:51 PM »
I dont mean to hijack this thread. The last time i read about ar pistols in hawaii, you had to permanently attach a magazine (welded somehow) to the lower .

You really dont need to do that anymore?!?

I been out of the game for years .

If it's a semi-auto, the magazine must be permanently attached. At one time, HPD would only register the stripped lower as a pistol frame if the magazine was welded to the receiver. So you had to pick up your permit to acquire, pick up the receiver from the gun shop, weld on a magazine, then take to HPD for registration. If it wasn't done to their satisfaction, HPD would confiscate the receiver. The last time I registered one about a year or two ago, the lower receiver was not required to have a magazine permanently attached, but part of the process to build a semi-auto AR pistol would include permanently attaching a magazine. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2020, 10:20:43 PM »
If it's a semi-auto, the magazine must be permanently attached. At one time, HPD would only register the stripped lower as a pistol frame if the magazine was welded to the receiver. So you had to pick up your permit to acquire, pick up the receiver from the gun shop, weld on a magazine, then take to HPD for registration. If it wasn't done to their satisfaction, HPD would confiscate the receiver. The last time I registered one about a year or two ago, the lower receiver was not required to have a magazine permanently attached, but part of the process to build a semi-auto AR pistol would include permanently attaching a magazine.

UNLESS ...... you build it without a gas system.   Which ties into the "if it's a semi-auto" condition you started out with.   :thumbsup:  :shaka:

Sometimes, that needs to be spelled out.  Most assume the AR pistol or rifle is a semi-auto without considering they can disable it.   :wave:
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Eric808

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2020, 09:02:10 AM »
If you buy an AR pistol and install bolt action conversion, would that then be legal in HI?
https://kalikey.com/

6716J

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2020, 09:09:09 AM »
I dont mean to hijack this thread. The last time i read about ar pistols in hawaii, you had to permanently attach a magazine (welded somehow) to the lower .

You really dont need to do that anymore?!?

I been out of the game for years .

If it's a semi-auto, the magazine must be permanently attached. At one time, HPD would only register the stripped lower as a pistol frame if the magazine was welded to the receiver. So you had to pick up your permit to acquire, pick up the receiver from the gun shop, weld on a magazine, then take to HPD for registration. If it wasn't done to their satisfaction, HPD would confiscate the receiver. The last time I registered one about a year or two ago, the lower receiver was not required to have a magazine permanently attached, but part of the process to build a semi-auto AR pistol would include permanently attaching a magazine. 

UNLESS ...... you build it without a gas system.   Which ties into the "if it's a semi-auto" condition you started out with.   :thumbsup:  :shaka:

Sometimes, that needs to be spelled out.  Most assume the AR pistol or rifle is a semi-auto without considering they can disable it.   :wave:

""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"...  ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"...

I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.

They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

6716J

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2020, 09:09:53 AM »
If you buy an AR pistol and install bolt action conversion, would that then be legal in HI?
https://kalikey.com/

Legally yes. But HPD would hate you
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2020, 01:04:12 PM »
Legally yes. But HPD would hate you

HPD already hates gun owners without badges.

No sense in trying to win friends there.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2020, 01:19:14 PM »
""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"...  ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"...

I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.

They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...

If you welded a mag to make the pistol configuration legal, changing the upper to a rifle configuration isn't going to let you have a detachable mag.  The mag well is on the lower.

Adjustable gas systems are still gas systems.  It defines a semi-automatic where the action is gas driven.

I'm not familiar with PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine??).  But I believe the design of an AR includes a BCG that requires exhaust gas from the barrel to operate and make it semiauto.  All of that is contained in the upper:  barrel, gas block, gas tube, BCG, buffer, etc.  If the overall design of the action is no longer based on gas expulsion to operate the semi-auto action, would it even be classified an AR?  The only info I found in a short time is that a PCC uses blow-back to operate the action.  Sounds like a gas system to me, but I am not sure.  Is there something other than gas and manual mode on a semiauto PCC?
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

6716J

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2020, 02:17:01 PM »
""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"...  ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"... Nowhere does it state it must be welded

I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.

They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...

If you welded a mag to make the pistol configuration legal, changing the upper to a rifle configuration isn't going to let you have a detachable mag.  The mag well is on the lower. that's my whole point on why it's not required

Adjustable gas systems are still gas systems.  It defines a semi-automatic where the action is gas driven. True but when closed it operates as a single action/bolt action as the gas cannot cycle the BFG

I'm not familiar with PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine?? Yup).  But I believe the design of an AR includes a BCG that requires exhaust gas from the barrel to operate and make it semiauto.  All of that is contained in the upper:  barrel, gas block, gas tube, BCG, buffer, (these are in the lower) etc.  If the overall design of the action is no longer based on gas expulsion to operate the semi-auto action, would it even be classified an AR?  The only info I found in a short time is that a PCC uses blow-back to operate the action.  Sounds like a gas system to me, but I am not sure.  Is there something other than gas and manual mode on a semiauto PCC?

A PCC runs just like a handgun does. It uses the blow back from firing to cycle the bolt. The gas from the tube is irrelevant. It's why you can run a 4" barrel on a 9mm AR pistol

Back to standard AR15s, using a KALIKEY BCG would make it a bolt gun, thus no "welding" of the magazine. That's why the made up requirement of welding from HPD is bullshit. And even though they can say whatever they want, using a bullet button or other item that prevents you from changing the magazine without using tools or disassembly of the action is legal, as is codified in other states laws and through various lawsuits around the country. Yes I know their stance and I'm waiting for that position in writing, but until then they can suck it. I've asked HPD and the AG for a written definition and both flat refuse on how they determine what a "detachable magazine" is. I've gotten to the point of building a shit cheap one just knowing it would be confiscated in order to file suit against them in order to get a real definition, not their ambiguous bullshit.

Yes the LOWER receiver has the trigger/hammer and that's it. It has zero bearing on how the AR operates, nor does it care about barrel length. It also doesn't care what caliber you have it in. Whether that's .17HMR or .50 BEOWOLF or anywhere in between. It's also why HPD can't make you go back after you've built a stripped lower when you say it's a pistol, even though they say you have to. You've followed the law and registered it. There is nothing in the law that says you have to go back to prove a build.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2020, 02:29:18 PM »
""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"...  ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"... Nowhere does it state it must be welded

I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.

They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...

A PCC runs just like a handgun does. It uses the blow back from firing to cycle the bolt. The gas from the tube is irrelevant. It's why you can run a 4" barrel on a 9mm AR pistol

Back to standard AR15s, using a KALIKEY BCG would make it a bolt gun, thus no "welding" of the magazine. That's why the made up requirement of welding from HPD is bullshit. And even though they can say whatever they want, using a bullet button or other item that prevents you from changing the magazine without using tools or disassembly of the action is legal, as is codified in other states laws and through various lawsuits around the country. Yes I know their stance and I'm waiting for that position in writing, but until then they can suck it. I've asked HPD and the AG for a written definition and both flat refuse on how they determine what a "detachable magazine" is. I've gotten to the point of building a shit cheap one just knowing it would be confiscated in order to file suit against them in order to get a real definition, not their ambiguous bullshit.

Yes the LOWER receiver has the trigger/hammer and that's it. It has zero bearing on how the AR operates, nor does it care about barrel length. It also doesn't care what caliber you have it in. Whether that's .17HMR or .50 BEOWOLF or anywhere in between. It's also why HPD can't make you go back after you've built a stripped lower when you say it's a pistol, even though they say you have to. You've followed the law and registered it. There is nothing in the law that says you have to go back to prove a build.

I don't think you can conclude that a bullet button is legal.

California made large (standard) capacity AR mags legal if you had to use a tool to extract them, increasing the amount of time needed for a mag change.  The Bullet Button was invented to adhere to the legal requirements and also make extracting a mag as simple and quick as possible.  Using an AR round to push the button made the round a "tool", making the Bullet Button legal.......until it wasn't.

Once the legislature figured out gun owners and manufacturers are smarter than the government, they changed the law to require the rifle be disassembled to remove the mag.  That made the bullet button illegal.

Same guy that invented the Bullet Button then invented a mechanism that allows the shooter to break open the upper and lower receivers, remove the mag, and close the receivers again without having to completely separate them.  To augment this new method, they make a MAGLOC device that automatically ejects the mag when the upper receiver is lifted slightly from the lower.

If our laws on making mags non-removable were the same as CA's when the Bullet Button was invented, then I'd agree they are "legal".  By legal, I mean it makes the AR pistol compliant with HI law.  Unfortunately, HI didn't elaborate beyond stating the inverse:  that an AR pistol having a detachable magazine and other characteristics makes it illegal (assault pistol).  It's not only ambiguous, but it completely avoids stating that ANYTHING is "legal".  You have to derive what's legal by interpreting what the law says is illegal.

"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

6716J

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2020, 03:07:21 PM »
I don't think you can conclude that a bullet button is legal. I defy any legislator, lawyer, the AG, HPD officer to testify in a courtroom that they are illegal for use and to state the portion of the statute where it says you can't use them to adhere to the AS WRITTEN law and that magazines must be welded to the lower Until they make them illegal, they are legal. After 30 years of reading and interpreting building codes, statutes and such, I've learned that words matter and have meaning. SHALL and MAY are two different words. And they still haven't defined the term readily...

California made large (standard) capacity AR mags legal if you had to use a tool to extract them, increasing the amount of time needed for a mag change.  The Bullet Button was invented to adhere to the legal requirements and also make extracting a mag as simple and quick as possible.  Using an AR round to push the button made the round a "tool", making the Bullet Button legal.......until it wasn't.

Once the legislature figured out gun owners and manufacturers are smarter than the government, they changed the law to require the rifle be disassembled to remove the mag.  That made the bullet button illegal. But Hawaii hasn't done that yet. They all too dumb

Same guy that invented the Bullet Button then invented a mechanism that allows the shooter to break open the upper and lower receivers, remove the mag, and close the receivers again without having to completely separate them.  To augment this new method, they make a MAGLOC device that automatically ejects the mag when the upper receiver is lifted slightly from the lower.

If our laws on making mags non-removable were the same as CA's when the Bullet Button was invented, then I'd agree they are "legal".  By legal, I mean it makes the AR pistol compliant with HI law.  Unfortunately, HI didn't elaborate beyond stating the inverse:  that an AR pistol having a detachable magazine and other characteristics makes it illegal (assault pistol).  It's not only ambiguous, but it completely avoids stating that ANYTHING is "legal". That is the absolute truth You have to derive what's legal by interpreting what the law says is illegal.

Until they put into the written law what HPD is telling you to do, you don't have to. It's like the speed limit. If the sign says 55 but HPD says you have to do 35, the law still stands at 55.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: AR Stripped Lower Registration: Other or Pistol
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2020, 03:36:31 PM »
I don't think you can conclude that a bullet button is legal.

I defy any legislator, lawyer, the AG, HPD officer to testify in a courtroom that they are illegal for use and to state the portion of the statute where it says you can't use them to adhere to the AS WRITTEN law and that magazines must be welded to the lower Until they make them illegal, they are legal. After 30 years of reading and interpreting building codes, statutes and such, I've learned that words matter and have meaning. SHALL and MAY are two different words. And they still haven't defined the term readily...

Okay, let me be more precise.  I was using your words, and I should have substituted a more exact phrase.

You originally said:
Quote
And even though they can say whatever they want, using a bullet button or other item that prevents you from
changing the magazine without using tools or disassembly of the action is legal, as is codified in other states
laws and through various lawsuits around the country.

What I took that to mean is that a bullet button makes an AR pistol in HI compliant with HI gun laws. 

Sure, you can put a Transformer Action Figure on your AR pistol -- perfectly legal.  But it in no way makes the pistol more or less compliant.  Same with a bullet button.  Our laws are written differently than California's.  They tried to be more specific, and it gave owners enough wiggle room to use bullet buttons to comply.  Hawaii laws are more ambiguous and lacking in details.  That way they can charge you, and it's up to you to prove the law should be interpreted your way versus their way.

"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall