Military training affidavit for pistols (Read 6044 times)

zippz

Military training affidavit for pistols
« on: March 18, 2018, 08:51:35 PM »
While running the HRA table at the gun show, a military member said HPD no longer takes military affidavits for pistol permits as of 2 weeks ago.  The reasoning was many of the affidavits were worded wrong many times and HPD didn't want to deal with the problems.

Has anyone else experienced or heard of this happening?
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

oldfart

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 09:33:18 PM »
Sounds like there should be a form provided by hpd or the state to accommodate military personnel.
What, Me Worry?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 01:07:37 AM »
Quote
§134-2  Permits to acquire.

(g)  Effective July 1, 1995, no person shall be issued a permit under this section for the acquisition of a pistol or revolver unless the person, at any time prior to the issuance of the permit, has completed:

     (1)  An approved hunter education course as authorized under section 183D-28;

     (2)  A firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency of the State or of any county;

     (3)  A firearms safety or training course offered to law enforcement officers, security guards, investigators, deputy sheriffs, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement by a state or county law enforcement agency; or

     (4)  A firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor or a certified military firearms instructor that provides, at a minimum, a total of at least two hours of firing training at a firing range and a total of at least four hours of classroom instruction, which may include a video, that focuses on:

          (A)  The safe use, handling, and storage of firearms and firearm safety in the home; and

          (B)  Education on the firearm laws of the State.

          An affidavit signed by the certified firearms instructor who conducted or taught the course, providing the name, address, and phone number of the instructor and attesting to the successful completion of the course by the applicant shall constitute evidence of certified successful completion under this paragraph.

So, HPD is going to decide which parts of the law they don't have to follow?

"I don't want to deal with problems" is not a justification for ignoring the statute.  If anyone gets turned down, it needs to go to the Police Chief and the local news stations.  This shit has got to stop.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

zippz

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 07:40:19 AM »
Sounds like there should be a form provided by hpd or the state to accommodate military personnel.

HPD has a sample template they pass out at the station, I believe it has different wording from the previous sample. 

Common problem is the service members dont get it notarized, it has the wrong wording, or they use the old sample.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

zippz

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 07:45:15 AM »
So, HPD is going to decide which parts of the law they don't have to follow?

"I don't want to deal with problems" is not a justification for ignoring the statute.  If anyone gets turned down, it needs to go to the Police Chief and the local news stations.  This shit has got to stop.

From second hand reports, HPD said it was a courtesy that they were taking affidavits signed by the commanders.   Someone gave HPD a hard time when their affidavit was wrong which caused this.  After reading the law, I believe HPD is correct.

Working on it with HRA.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

rklapp

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 12:21:17 PM »
I imagine that the Commanders were writing a memo that said the soldier is competent to use a handgun, and then when HPD balks, the soldier is reticent to approach their Commander and admit they didn't fully read the law. I agree that this would be easily fixed with a form for military personnel.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

drck1000

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 12:40:49 PM »
Quote
(4)  A firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor or a certified military firearms instructor that provides, at a minimum, a total of at least two hours of firing training at a firing range and a total of at least four hours of classroom instruction, which may include a video, that focuses on:

          (A)  The safe use, handling, and storage of firearms and firearm safety in the home; and

          (B)  Education on the firearm laws of the State.

I assume its the part about the four hours of classroom instruction and firearms laws of the State that are a common hangup.  I know of affidavits of newer NRA certified firearms instructors have gotten rejected because they lacked the proper verbiage, particularly regarding the 2 hours live fire, 4 hours classroom instruction, and education on State laws. 

That said, I've also heard .mil folks who just transferred to Hawaii where they aren't aware of the HRS and just ask their CO for a "certification letter" that just states .mil training.  Where the person who transferred felt that was good enough, but only to have to be walked through the wording of the HRS. 

zippz

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 01:24:18 PM »
Gotta work with HPD on this one cause nowhere in the HRS says the Commander can instruct on the Hawaii State laws or sign the affidavit for the military instructor.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 01:58:30 PM »
Gotta work with HPD on this one cause nowhere in the HRS says the Commander can instruct on the Hawaii State laws or sign the affidavit for the military instructor.

Seems like the best solution for military is sign up for the Hunter Ed course.  It's free, and the affidavit is accepted for handgun permit applications.

I usually recommend taking the NRA course over Hunter Ed, but for trained shooters, paying for another course is overkill.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

zippz

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 06:25:32 PM »
How could the law be  amended to exempt military from the affidavit requirement but still ensure they are knowledgeable on the HRS?

Show a military ID or DD214?  I think everyone completes firearms training in basic except for possibly chaplains?

Not sure how to ensure state laws and safety in the home are taught.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

zippz

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 06:30:47 PM »
Or get rid of the affidavit req for everyone.  I doubt there are any other states that req this.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Wake27

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 08:43:32 PM »
This is tricky. I’ve been here almost four years and only just recently saw a template of this affidavit. Never heard of it being notarized though, in fact I’ve never heard of any military document being notarized. It depends how you look at the issue, whether this is a valid legal requirement or not. I’ll be the first to admit that a commander’s signature really isn’t what it sounds like. Honestly I think the best and still somewhat realistic option is for a condensed, military specific class.

Q

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2018, 12:22:52 AM »
The reason HPD justifies not accepting the military affidavit is because they don't focus on rules and regulations that apply to Hawaii state law.

ImKu

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 06:19:30 PM »
Don’t mind me as i go ahead and bring this thread back… Does anyone know if military affidavit works anymore or has a template to use?  I did this process in 15’ (i think) without issue but I can find any HPD templates.
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2022, 08:01:51 PM »
Don’t mind me as i go ahead and bring this thread back… Does anyone know if military affidavit works anymore or has a template to use?  I did this process in 15’ (i think) without issue but I can find any HPD templates.

Don't quote me, but I think I remember reading the main problem with military firearm training affidavits is the actual trainer you learned from has to sign it.  Chances are, if you trained 7 years ago, that trainer is no longer around -- PCS'ed, retired, separated, deployed, ...

Hopefully a military member of the forum who used such a training certification can verify/correct this.


"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

nickelzismoney

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 08:35:13 PM »
Don't quote me, but I think I remember reading the main problem with military firearm training affidavits is the actual trainer you learned from has to sign it.  Chances are, if you trained 7 years ago, that trainer is no longer around -- PCS'ed, retired, separated, deployed, ...

Hopefully a military member of the forum who used such a training certification can verify/correct this.

Too right Flapp. In 5 years I qualified on rifles, pistols, and shotguns, but pistol ranges and coaches are so rare due to scheduling, time constraints, funding and resource issues, etc that it’s hard to even get them done. Also add in the fact that in 5 years I had been stationed in 3 different places and orders here and there are so random so requiring and aligning original signatures are stressful and difficult at best. Not everyone stays at the same command, so having an official standardized training proof would be better.

However, for my FL CCW permit, they accepted official documents and records from my service regarding training and pistols directly; as long as it showed dates, actual course scores and requirements, and the dates lined up with what Florida expects (scores within 5 years), it was all good. Hawaii should move toward using military experience too, especially when a lot of documentation can be found online on the service databases that are easily printable and designed so  the average service member can understand what’s being shown
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 05:58:36 AM by nickelzismoney »
“No matter how much it hurts, how dark it gets, or how hard you fall… you are never out of the fight.” - Marcus Luttrel

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Albert Einstein

ImKu

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 08:54:27 PM »
Thx for the replies 🤙🏼
I was one of those that had my CO sign the affidavit.  Guess that’s a no go nowadays.

https://gohunthawaii.ehawaii.gov/public/basic-classes.html

Kind of off topic, but does anyone know if the hunters online course certification be sufficient for use vice a permit to acquire?
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

macsak

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2022, 09:04:42 PM »
affirmative

Thx for the replies 🤙🏼
I was one of those that had my CO sign the affidavit.  Guess that’s a no go nowadays.

https://gohunthawaii.ehawaii.gov/public/basic-classes.html

Kind of off topic, but does anyone know if the hunters online course certification be sufficient for use vice a permit to acquire?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 09:12:54 PM »
Thx for the replies 🤙🏼
I was one of those that had my CO sign the affidavit.  Guess that’s a no go nowadays.

https://gohunthawaii.ehawaii.gov/public/basic-classes.html

Kind of off topic, but does anyone know if the hunters online course certification be sufficient for use vice a permit to acquire?

The in-person Hunter's Ed classes never included live fire training, so taking it online isn't any different.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

nickelzismoney

Re: Military training affidavit for pistols
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2022, 05:55:26 AM »
Just take the Hunters Ed for Hawaii. Literally $20 online
“No matter how much it hurts, how dark it gets, or how hard you fall… you are never out of the fight.” - Marcus Luttrel

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Albert Einstein