Tourist shooting (Read 15852 times)

Drakiir84

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2018, 11:03:23 AM »
Hope someone here can meet up with you and “host” you at Koko Head. I’d be down to let you shot my ARs and handguns, but I think I’ll still be on the IR. If Drakiir can host you, I’ll donate some ammo.

Hope you enjoy your trip. I have a few friends in Oz who are shooters, but not sure where they live. One has a bunch of Enfields and another has Enfields and some others. One is a former tubboat captain, but now is some sort of ranch hand on a huge property. I’m sure he works hard, but he posts a bunch of pics of the wild dogs (dingos?) that he culls for work.

I'm taking an Aussie next Friday the 19th, can only handle so much down under.  Seriously though, Thanksgiving week is super busy for me so I don't want to commit then not show up :-(
"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."
-Jeff Cooper

AusTac

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2018, 03:30:33 PM »
You guys are a bunch of legends! Didn't know i was going to be there during thanks giving, i've yet to confirm travel dates and arrivals ( hawaiian time ) lazy i know, your 21 hours behind us which will mess with me a bit provided all goes well, thursday is a pretty much set date though, i assume its a public holiday for you guys?

Never expected such a welcome, again for everyone thats commented and i've been in touch with, mahalo

WTF?Shane

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2018, 08:55:09 PM »
You guys are a bunch of legends! Didn't know i was going to be there during thanks giving, i've yet to confirm travel dates and arrivals ( hawaiian time ) lazy i know, your 21 hours behind us which will mess with me a bit provided all goes well, thursday is a pretty much set date though, i assume its a public holiday for you guys?

Never expected such a welcome, again for everyone thats commented and i've been in touch with, mahalo

Thanksgiving Day is observed nationwide.

justin1098

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 08:28:24 PM »
If I can convince my wife to let me go on thanksgiving I will bring a FN FAL, PTR91 (HK G3 clone), and M1 Garand. You’re welcome to shoot them if I can get there.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 08:34:32 PM by justin1098 »

AusTac

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 01:38:51 AM »
If I can convince my wife to let me go on thanksgiving I will bring a FN FAL, PTR91 (HK G3 clone), and M1 Garand. You’re welcome to shoot them if I can get there.

I just can't put into words how jelous i am you own such a nice selection, ar's are awesome, but old school gets me going just as much, none of the oldies ever think a 24year old will like that stuff

changemyoil66

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2018, 01:37:33 PM »
If I can convince my wife to let me go on thanksgiving I will bring a FN FAL, PTR91 (HK G3 clone), and M1 Garand. You’re welcome to shoot them if I can get there.

Tell her you're leaving the home for more supplies.  And the lines were super long in the market and parking sucked also.  (All true by the way on day of).

If she ask why you taking your guns, use the parking excuse.  They even have HPD in the lots directing the flow of traffic cause people get nuts.

Surf

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2018, 10:25:24 AM »
What follows is NOT LEGAL ADVICE.  Do your own due diligence.

I get hit up quite a bit for this and a recent request (yesterday) came from an Australian here in Hawaii, that wanted to do some firearms training.  I get a lot of Australian requests and while I am glad to see the interest there is a problem, at least for me.  This info might help.

There is a bit of controversy over "training" vs. "shooting gallery" and what is the difference.  Waikiki firearms of the past or similar is classified as a "shooting gallery" and instruction is pretty much limited to basic function and safety.  So tourists can shoot under these circumstances. 

"Training" is where it can get confused and ITAR can come into play where a DSP-83 may be required ($250 fee).  There is some discussion on differentiating between a civilian, or military, or LE.  My company trains LE and Mil, and as a registered Fed contractor, I adhere to this policy strictly when it comes to training Foreign Nationals no matter.  This is a common practice for many training companies supplying firearms or tactics training. 

Is it only regulated to a fed contractor?  I am not going to give an official legal opinion but it is my understanding that this can be applied to any SME with certain training creds and this can be a violation of Fed Law for the trainer and trainee.  In my instance, it is almost never worthwhile for a simple tourist coming to the US to go through a DSP-83 process, but it is doable.   

Quote
ITAR is an acronym that stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulations (22 CFR §§120-130) that are administered by the U.S. Department of State through the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) under authority of the Arms Export Control Act (22 USC §2778). ITAR places strict controls on the export of "defense articles" and "defense services." Defense articles include any item, software, or technical data on the United States Munitions List (USML). Defense services include the furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether or not in the United States, with respect to defense articles, and the furnishing of any technical data associated with a defense article. Any defense article, service, or related technical data found to be on the USML requires an export license to be exported; i.e., given to a foreign person, whether or not in the United States.

Defense Service:

1. The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United
States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles;
2. The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled on the USML (see 22 CFR §120.10), whether in the United States or abroad; or
3. Military training of foreign units and forces, regular and irregular, including formal or
informal instruction of foreign persons in the United States or abroad or by correspondence courses, technical, educational, or information publications and media of all kinds, training aid, orientation, training exercise, and military advice. (See also 22 CFR §124.1.)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2018, 12:15:46 PM »
What follows is NOT LEGAL ADVICE.  Do your own due diligence.

I get hit up quite a bit for this and a recent request (yesterday) came from an Australian here in Hawaii, that wanted to do some firearms training.  I get a lot of Australian requests and while I am glad to see the interest there is a problem, at least for me.  This info might help.

There is a bit of controversy over "training" vs. "shooting gallery" and what is the difference.  Waikiki firearms of the past or similar is classified as a "shooting gallery" and instruction is pretty much limited to basic function and safety.  So tourists can shoot under these circumstances. 

"Training" is where it can get confused and ITAR can come into play where a DSP-83 may be required ($250 fee).  There is some discussion on differentiating between a civilian, or military, or LE.  My company trains LE and Mil, and as a registered Fed contractor, I adhere to this policy strictly when it comes to training Foreign Nationals no matter.  This is a common practice for many training companies supplying firearms or tactics training. 

Is it only regulated to a fed contractor?  I am not going to give an official legal opinion but it is my understanding that this can be applied to any SME with certain training creds and this can be a violation of Fed Law for the trainer and trainee.  In my instance, it is almost never worthwhile for a simple tourist coming to the US to go through a DSP-83 process, but it is doable.

I read through the pistol-forum thread you also posted that info in.  Some advice seems reasonable:  the visitor might include "hunting" in the Visa application list of reasons for the trip, and maybe get a hunting license for the state. Non-resident cost for a Hawaii license is ("choke") $105 versus the $20 resident fee.

Quote
Hawai`i Hunting licenses are now available online! Your license will be instantly issued after you successfully complete the purchase process.

Click here to view the requirements to purchase a hunting license online.

For all non-resident hunters purchasing a Hawaii hunting license for the first time, please go to the "Non-resident Exemption Request Form"
link above and complete the online form. Once processed, an email notification will be sent with additional instructions.

https://hunting.ehawaii.gov/hunting/license.html;jsessionid=4B016A8CF334CF5D0E3D63D4626FDE2C.prodapp1

As long as you have all the i's dotted and t's crossed for hunting, it ought to also cover "firearm sporting activities" at the range.

Not a lawyer, but it seems if you're worried about ITAR enforcement, having a valid, approved reason for accessing firearms while visiting ought to be sufficient.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Surf

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2018, 05:18:33 PM »
As long as you have all the i's dotted and t's crossed for hunting, it ought to also cover "firearm sporting activities" at the range.

Not a lawyer, but it seems if you're worried about ITAR enforcement, having a valid, approved reason for accessing firearms while visiting ought to be sufficient.
Lots of discussion on this.  I am not trying to be difficult and while I may have personal feelings on the "what's the big deal" aspect, I will stick with "do your own due diligence." 

There is a route to obtain a Hawaii hunting permit entirely online if you are starting completely from scratch.  Legit ways to avoid physical attendance in the Hawaii Hunters Ed course.  While this does not equal permit to acquire, it covers legit hunting purposes. 

Do out of staters, including Non-Resident Aliens want to come to Hawaii to take a course?  Absolutely, I get a lot of inquiries.  The biggest challenge for those who want to come to Hawaii and bring their own weapons is the 5-day rule, mag restrictions, and many worry about storage, sojourn or no sojourn topic when it comes to a hotel or residence with no safe.  Plus our Foreign friends have additional challenges. 

Even though there are guidelines for non-resident hunting and "target shooting" there is still ambiguity over what may constitute "training" and who as a trainer fits that category of go/no go under ITAR.  When you look at the hoops and what if's, it is almost easier to submit the DSP-83.  But then again it is costly, either way. 

Seems the best bet is someone who does not fall under the "ITAR" restriction taking someone to the range and letting them "target shoot" your guns.  For someone doing that too often, as in getting paid, you might garner too much attention from someone who might want to complain.  For those genuinely conducting regular business within the industry, the "what if" scenarios just aren't worth it.

But then again "I hear" there are those finding ways to conduct business at KKHD which is entirely not my concern.

robtmc

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2018, 07:26:34 PM »
There is a route to obtain a Hawaii hunting permit entirely online if you are starting completely from scratch.  Legit ways to avoid physical attendance in the Hawaii Hunters Ed course.

If you say so.  I looked into it late last year.  Only route I found was do the book work online, but there was STILL a "in-person" course requirement by the DLNR.   Along with a comprehensive written exam.

If i could have avoided the in-person part, i would have.  At least getting the actual license is all online once the Hunter Education course is passed..

AusTac

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2018, 01:44:15 AM »
I've skimmed the legal jargon posts, and i'm not aftet formal instruction just so we're all clear, rather just s bit of banter ( might be aussie slang? ) and want to put a few rounds down range out of some stuff i don't get to play with her back home, if i do need to get some government junk ( i have an aussie firearms license so i know all about the government taking my priveliges and selling them back to me   ;) ) more than happy to do whatever, don't want people getting into strive with the law over little ole' me

Surf

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2018, 07:39:14 AM »
If you say so.  I looked into it late last year.  Only route I found was do the book work online, but there was STILL a "in-person" course requirement by the DLNR.   Along with a comprehensive written exam.

If i could have avoided the in-person part, i would have.  At least getting the actual license is all online once the Hunter Education course is passed..
You can do the Official Texas Hunter course online.  The Texas hunters ed card is IHEA certified course.  Then submit for a Hawaii Hunters Ed exemtion number.  After you get the exemption number go to the online Hawaii hunting license site and complete the online application.  Avoids taking the physical course in Hawaii.

I've skimmed the legal jargon posts, and i'm not aftet formal instruction just so we're all clear, rather just s bit of banter ( might be aussie slang? ) and want to put a few rounds down range out of some stuff i don't get to play with her back home, if i do need to get some government junk ( i have an aussie firearms license so i know all about the government taking my priveliges and selling them back to me   ;) ) more than happy to do whatever, don't want people getting into strive with the law over little ole' me
This is a topic that comes up often enough, so no harm in discussing the technical legal aspects. 

Many visitors just want to have the opportunity to shoot, and not unlike yourself would like to shoot a variety of weapons, which IMO is awesome and doable with fewer issues.  However, I have been approached for actual training as in defensive styles of training on many occasions.  This is also fueled by my website that lists my location as Hawaii.  If the individual or groups are willing to pre-plan the trip and pay for me to submit the DSP-83, then it is doable.  Again as the example, the person who approached me 2 days ago is in town and 2 of them want a full one-day defensive style instruction while they are here.  Not enough turn around time to submit for it.  If you have friends from home that travel to the States and want to shoot, let them know to say that they don't want instruction but just want to shoot.  A standard range that offers this, like many in Vegas understand this.  Hawaii just has less opportunity.

zippz

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2018, 07:45:29 AM »
The NRA stance on teaching classes to foreigners is to consult an attorney due to ITAR.  At one time they applied that to greencard holders, but I think they lightened their stance on it recently.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

zippz

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2018, 08:22:05 AM »
Too bad you weren't here earlier this summer to attend the shooting fairs.  I took an Aussie to shoot the blunderbuss last year.

Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2018, 08:52:21 AM »
The NRA stance on teaching classes to foreigners is to consult an attorney due to ITAR.  At one time they applied that to greencard holders, but I think they lightened their stance on it recently.

"Don't ask us.  Pay for a lawyer" isn't exactly a "stance."  More like a refusal to take a stance. 
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

Surf

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2018, 09:12:47 AM »
The consensus when it comes to the NRA is that the Civilian NRA instructor certs and you should do your own "due diligence" when it comes to legal issues.  If you hold a blue card, IE NRALE (law enforcement) cert, then you pretty much fall into ITAR restrictions.  This is still a do your own "due diligence" situation, but you should pretty much go the DSP-83 route. 

Since there is a myriad of instructor level certifications out there one should always be concerned.  Another generalization is that if you train or have provided training to LE or Military, it is best to be on the side of caution.  If you are current or former LE or Mil and now you provide training, you need to be cautious.  If you have ever had a moniker of being recognized as a Subject Matter Expert by an agency, courts, or a recognized professional organization, or industry entity, you almost certainly can be held accountable by ITAR standards. 

Many companies just flat out don't deal with Foreign Individuals.  I have been to many private companies based courses that are restricted to either Mil or LE or both and many foreign entities often decide the issue isn't worthwhile on a small scale or individual basis, usually in regards to costs and red tape. It is easier to do a large foreign entity with a mobile cadre.

For my company, my course registration includes an acceptance policy of Credential and ITAR rules, plus requirements and recitals that all need to be sworn by the applicant.  Many companies require a background that can be purchased online, kind of like drivers abstract, but a legal background from the state.  
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 09:18:35 AM by Surf »

AusTac

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2018, 09:16:45 AM »
Too bad you weren't here earlier this summer to attend the shooting fairs.  I took an Aussie to shoot the blunderbuss last year.


I recently put a few rounds out of a CPA Stevens which is a  Modern replica of the original 44 & 1/2 Stevens action. Which was chambered in 45/90.
And also a sharps in  .40/70 Straight, now they were cool rifles  :D

AusTac

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 04:17:15 PM »
With my trip a little under 2 weeks away the planning has started, does anyone have any suggestions? This is my 6th time over there so i've done the usual touristy stuff, also who has the best range of camping/outdoorsy/firearms equipment? Theres alot of stuff we can't get back home so pretty much bringing an empty suit case  ;D

zippz

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2018, 04:32:34 PM »
Thursday the 22nd is Thanksgiving holiday.  Lots of turkey buffets around.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

zippz

Re: Tourist shooting
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2018, 04:41:52 PM »
Kualoa ranch is a nice but kinda expensive place for horseback and ATV riding and tours where they made movies like jurrasic park.

Koko crater hike goes up a set of old stairs about 800 feet up.  Good view.  Its also above the shooting range.

Kuliouou is also another good 3 mile hike up to the mountain ridge for a good view.

Learn about Hawaiian history at the bishop museum and tour iolani palace.

I dunno of any good outdoor shops here since sports authority closed.  Young Guns has a good selection of guns and hunting stuff.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu