2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: Jl808 on April 06, 2021, 02:39:04 PM
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Moderation on this forum is very lenient. Discussion of various topics by opposing viewpoints (often heated) are allowed and generally tolerated on this forum.
However, I've been noticing that some threads are really just devolving into pages of back-and-forth insults and the original topics are getting lost in all the nonsensical posts.
As far as I know, the mods avoid and minimize having to delete people's posts.
I'll start an internal discussion with the other mods to see if post deletions are necessary, and we will be keeping an eye on this.
To minimize the non-stop back-and-forth insults, be advised that insults perceived by mods to have crossed a line will receive a timeout.
Anyone arguing with a mod's decision to issue a timeout may also receive a timeout.
More serious repercussions (including longer time outs or even permanent bans) could be considered if someone continues even after multiple warnings.
We don't want to delete posts but may do so if a post really crosses a line. Time outs are a good middle ground to help calm things down on some of the more heated threads.
2AHawaii is one of the few places we can discuss topics that are important to us. There will be disagreements and we don't have to agree on everything.
Please... if you have nothing good to add to a topic, don't jump on someone else's post and insult them because you disagree with what they're saying. Especially when they're not talking to you.
Treat 2AHawaii.com as our online forum / community / home. Let's keep this place clean and civil.
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i hate that it got to this point, but we need to be discussing things without resorting to insults and name-calling
i'd like to add that suggesting that someone is being insulting may result in a time out for the one suggesting too
this is not a mechanism to complain about other posters (or moderators)
if you have an issue with this, or anything else about how the forum is being run, you can take it up with us and the site owner personally
or you can start your own forum and run it the way you wish...
Moderation on this forum is very lenient. Discussion of various topics by opposing viewpoints (often heated) are allowed and generally tolerated on this forum.
However, I've been noticing that some threads are really just devolving into pages of back-and-forth insults and the original topics are getting lost in all the nonsensical posts.
As far as I know, the mods avoid and minimize having to delete people's posts.
I'll start an internal discussion with the other mods to see if post deletions are necessary, and we will be keeping an eye on this.
To minimize the non-stop back-and-forth insults, be advised that insults perceived by mods to have crossed a line will receive a timeout.
Anyone arguing with a mod's decision to issue a timeout may also receive a timeout.
More serious repercussions (including longer time outs or even permanent bans) could be considered if someone continues even after multiple warnings.
We don't want to delete posts but may do so if a post really crosses a line. Time outs are a good middle ground to help calm things down on some of the more heated threads.
2AHawaii is one of the few places we can discuss topics that are important to us. There will be disagreements and we don't have to agree on everything.
Please... if you have nothing good to add to a topic, don't jump on someone else's post and insult them because you disagree with what they're saying. Especially when they're not talking to you.
Treat 2AHawaii.com as our online forum / community / home. Let's keep this place clean and civil.
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i hate that it got to this point, but we need to be discussing things without resorting to insults and name-calling
i'd like to add that suggesting that someone is being insulting may result in a time out for the one suggesting too
this is not a mechanism to complain about other posters (or moderators)
if you have an issue with this, or anything else about how the forum is being run, you can take it up with us and the site owner personally
or you can start your own forum and run it the way you wish...
If you punish the people reporting bad behavior, then the mods are going to have to more diligently take time every single day to read all the threads themselves. Punishing the people being called names will make your job of policing the forum that much more work for you.
If you don't want people to report bad posts, then why even have the link? Take it off.
Just my opinion. You do what you want.
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If you punish the people reporting bad behavior, then the mods are going to have to more diligently take time every single day to read all the threads themselves. Punishing the people being called names will make your job of policing the forum that much more work for you.
If you don't want people to report bad posts, then why even have the link? Take it off.
Just my opinion. You do what you want.
not punishing people reporting bad behavior
punishing people who are using reporting maliciously...
i already had to delete one of your posts, FJ...
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Well I know I am part of the problem so I will stop. :shaka:
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not punishing people reporting bad behavior
punishing people who are using reporting maliciously...
i already had to delete one of your posts, FJ...
So, now this thread is for calling out specific individual's bad behavior?
How about we "pause" all the do-nothing peanut gallery and insults MODS post, such as:
#heads
#twss
#nofocus
i'm guessing you need pubix donations...
i own no ammo nor reloading components...
but at least you weren't wrong...
i blame your parents for your actions...
he's never wrong...
sacrasm is hard...
once again, it's all about you...
wow, you even refer to yourself as "it"...
it must be nice to never be wrong...
you were running for president?
"other factors"
is this sentence in english?
And so many more examples. Are these examples of what we are to accept as contributing to the discussions? The only thing these comments contribute is adding to the mod's post count and the number of nonsense posts the rest of us have to read in order to remove them from our Unread Posts list.
If mods want to "draw a line," then they should be held to that same standard -- possibly even a higher standard. If the line is insults, then some of those examples qualify for deletion. If the line is "doesn't contribute in any way to the discussion," then all of those above qualify to be deleted.
Either you create a list of rules for everyone to follow and enforce them, or you don't. Inconsistency does not work.
Again, my opinion. Feel free to delete this if you want, but I hope you read it first.
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see you in 24 hours...
So, now this thread is for calling out specific individual's bad behavior?
How about we "pause" all the do-nothing peanut gallery and insults MODS post, such as:
#heads
#twss
#nofocus
i'm guessing you need pubix donations...
i own no ammo nor reloading components...
but at least you weren't wrong...
i blame your parents for your actions...
he's never wrong...
sacrasm is hard...
once again, it's all about you...
wow, you even refer to yourself as "it"...
it must be nice to never be wrong...
you were running for president?
"other factors"
is this sentence in english?
And so many more examples. Are these examples of what we are to accept as contributing to the discussions? The only thing these comments contribute is adding to the mod's post count and the number of nonsense posts the rest of us have to read in order to remove them from our Unread Posts list.
If mods want to "draw a line," then they should be held to that same standard -- possibly even a higher standard. If the line is insults, then some of those examples qualify for deletion. If the line is "doesn't contribute in any way to the discussion," then all of those above qualify to be deleted.
Either you create a list of rules for everyone to follow and enforce them, or you don't. Inconsistency does not work.
Again, my opinion. Feel free to delete this if you want, but I hope you read it first.
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So I am curious, will this include the endless (period) posts, creating random genders to try and insult, insulting people's intelligence/age. ETC?
I'll give it a shot though. Try and reset my way of posting back to respect driven as, that's apparently the goal of this thread.
Who owns this site? How far with the moderation go? Are we talking facebook level? Will there be censorship?
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So I am curious, will this include the endless (period) posts, creating random genders to try and insult, insulting people's intelligence/age. ETC?
I'll give it a shot though. Try and reset my way of posting back to respect driven as, that's apparently the goal of this thread.
Who owns this site? How far with the moderation go? Are we talking facebook level? Will there be censorship?
i thought i was clear about this not being a mechanism to complain about moderation
tick.tick.tick...
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i thought i was clear about this not being a mechanism to complain about moderation
tick.tick.tick...
It's questions, I'm not complaining. We can take this to PM to clarify. So we don't have any misunderstandings.
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It's questions, I'm not complaining. We can take this to PM to clarify. So we don't have any misunderstandings.
there is no misunderstanding...
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I am a fresh face here and not hot to complain to management about how they run the joint or moderate, but does this forum software support an '/ignore user' function? That feature does tend cut down considerably on the nonsense being warned about in this thread.
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I am a fresh face here and not hot to complain to management about how they run the joint or moderate, but does this forum software support an '/ignore user' function? That feature does tend cut down considerably on the nonsense being warned about in this thread.
Yes, but its usefulness is spotty at best, as the comments made by users you have set to ignore will appear in subsequent posts if another member quotes them.
You almost have to read the quoted comments to understand the context of the responses. At that point, ignoring a user becomes an exercise in self control.
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Shades of Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Hah…what a joke!
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just an observation, but if certain board users go out of their way to constantly make statements as fact which are obviously not, even if they may or may not know them to be untrue and their only measurable effect is to create conflict which drives others user from participating in this forum, maybe its time to cut them loose?
From a purely math perspective, if they add nothing but subtract active members you might want to consider its time to terminate their participation?
I think everyone loves a spirited debate from opposite points of view if for no other reason than to solidify their own beliefs. But arguing with people who will not and cannot defend their positions does nothing but sow frustration and animosity. The health of the community in in your hands. Cull the heard or it dies of disease.
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just an observation, but if certain board users go out of their way to constantly make statements as fact which are obviously not, even if they may or may not know them to be untrue and their only measurable effect is to create conflict which drives others user from participating in this forum, maybe its time to cut them loose?
From a purely math perspective, if they add nothing but subtract active members you might want to consider its time to cut them loose.
I think everyone loves a spirited debate from opposite points of view if for no other reason than to solidify their beliefs. But arguing with people who will not and cannot defend their positions does nothing but sow frustration and animosity. The health of the community in in your hands. Cull the heard or it dies of disease.
From a purely objective perspective, I think when one particular member (and I do mean member) hijacks thread after thread and repeats the same info across threads, most forums would have tried to correct the behavior until it's obvious the person has no intention of trying to follow the rules. They are then banned, because the behavior is, as you said, disruptive and creates conflict -- as well as confusion -- as the readers try to sift through the constant bombardment of the same rhetorical gibberish day after day.
There needs to be an effort on the part of the posting member to find the place they originally posted the information and use a link to it. That way, others can not only get the redundant info, but also see the other thread/s and replies/context without having to dive down the same rabbit hole again.
Nobody wants to do a search on "Roe v. Wade" inside any forum and have the same fricking comments pop up in the results over and over and over ....
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just an observation, but if certain board users go out of their way to constantly make statements as fact which are obviously not, even if they may or may not know them to be untrue and their only measurable effect is to create conflict which drives others user from participating in this forum, maybe its time to cut them loose?
From a purely math perspective, if they add nothing but subtract active members you might want to consider its time to terminate their participation?
I think everyone loves a spirited debate from opposite points of view if for no other reason than to solidify their own beliefs. But arguing with people who will not and cannot defend their positions does nothing but sow frustration and animosity. The health of the community in in your hands. Cull the heard or it dies of disease.
I agree let that ONE person go. He/She?Them?they is an idiot and the disease.
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I agree let that ONE person go. He/She?Them?they is an idiot and the disease.
Too bad he never learned that the First Amendment doesn't cover bad behavior.
It's not so much the message and disagreement, but it's the constant badgering, arguing, hijacking, making threads all about themselves, etc.
It's the Pee Wee symdrom:
"I know you are, but what am I?!"
"I know you are, but what am I?!"
"I know you are, but what am I?!"
"I know you are, but what am I?!"
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should we start a poll?
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should we start a poll?
(https://i.imgur.com/xeO7txt.gif)
Too bad we can't literally vote anyone off the island here! :popcorn:
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Thank goodness I don't believe this forum is run like a cult. Do you hear yourselves talk? You speak of freedom and the first amendment and in the same breath try to cast out a person who does not conform to your beliefs. Much like that fake "free" new social media site. If you truly think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is some sort of troll and adds nothing to the community all you are doing is making the partisan divides worse. I've written testimonials, I've showed up the protests and even donated money. I sold and bought items with community members here. This state is majority not republican. You HAVE to have the democrat and independent voters on your side to preserve 2a rights. People have different beliefs and to box yourself in the echo chamber does nothing for the community. I am sure there are those with similar opinions as I but don't post because they fear the same mob mentality. Much like jurors that voted to convict chauvin. I don't fear people disagreeing me. I feel there is a purpose for myself and I wish to bring both sides to a more central point. We don't have to agree on anything but 2a, and even that there are different "levels" of support. But casting anyone out that doesn't exactly believe the same thing will only leave you alone. This site is about the 2nd amendment, its not a republican site. The second amendment is the root. You can have differentiating opinions on everything else.
I repeat myself many times because many times there are members that keep posting unproven or fakenews. Also if you keep repeating the same anti opinion, I will repeatedly post mine. I am not always correct and do admit when I am wrong, I am only human. There are also times when I am disproven by science at a later date or the reverse is true too when science comes to a conclusion. Hate to break to some people here, but my beliefs outside this forum are actually many times the majority opinions. A majority of America wants to legalize weed, thinks the election was legit, that Biden is president. Also a majority support abortion a good chunk don't believe in god or the same gods, and at the very least think religion doesn't belong in government. I defend my positions but if you refuse to believe them there is nothing I can do. Every person has the ability to "backup" or find something on the internet that makes them feel they are right. That's why we have flatearthers etc. Take a look at that abortion thread. A decent chunk of members actually do support it, but I am one of the few willing to put my name out there and argue for it. And yes, conversations sometimes get repetitive, that's because if both sides keep arguing the same things there's no solution. Its like disproving god. There is no "true" answer. We lack the technology to say 100% which side is correct. Doesn't really mean either side should stop. Every time it gets brought up again perhaps new information is added and peoples opinions may change.
Because some people complain about the lack of links even though google exists.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/16/8-facts-about-religion-and-government-in-the-united-states/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/323582/support-legal-marijuana-inches-new-high.aspx
https://morningconsult.com/form/tracking-voter-trust-in-elections/
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https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=40927.msg375663#msg375663
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There is hope
https://youtu.be/XTOPIx0Y10g
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but I am one of the few willing to put my name out there and argue for it.
What is your real name?
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A decent chunk of members actually do support it, but I am one of the few willing to put my name out there and argue for it.
School + age = pretty easy to find a name and more....I make it a practice to never have identifying information of me online.
What is your real name?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
So much for "putting your name out there!" :rofl: :rofl:
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Thank goodness I don't believe this forum is run like a cult. Do you hear yourselves talk? You speak of freedom and the first amendment and in the same breath try to cast out a person who does not conform to your beliefs. Much like that fake "free" new social media site. If you truly think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is some sort of troll and adds nothing to the community all you are doing is making the partisan divides worse. I've written testimonials, I've showed up the protests and even donated money. I sold and bought items with community members here. This state is majority not republican. You HAVE to have the democrat and independent voters on your side to preserve 2a rights. People have different beliefs and to box yourself in the echo chamber does nothing for the community. I am sure there are those with similar opinions as I but don't post because they fear the same mob mentality. Much like jurors that voted to convict chauvin. I don't fear people disagreeing me. I feel there is a purpose for myself and I wish to bring both sides to a more central point. We don't have to agree on anything but 2a, and even that there are different "levels" of support. But casting anyone out that doesn't exactly believe the same thing will only leave you alone. This site is about the 2nd amendment, its not a republican site. The second amendment is the root. You can have differentiating opinions on everything else.
I repeat myself many times because many times there are members that keep posting unproven or fakenews. Also if you keep repeating the same anti opinion, I will repeatedly post mine. I am not always correct and do admit when I am wrong, I am only human. There are also times when I am disproven by science at a later date or the reverse is true too when science comes to a conclusion. Hate to break to some people here, but my beliefs outside this forum are actually many times the majority opinions. A majority of America wants to legalize weed, thinks the election was legit, that Biden is president. Also a majority support abortion a good chunk don't believe in god or the same gods, and at the very least think religion doesn't belong in government. I defend my positions but if you refuse to believe them there is nothing I can do. Every person has the ability to "backup" or find something on the internet that makes them feel they are right. That's why we have flatearthers etc. Take a look at that abortion thread. A decent chunk of members actually do support it, but I am one of the few willing to put my name out there and argue for it. And yes, conversations sometimes get repetitive, that's because if both sides keep arguing the same things there's no solution. Its like disproving god. There is no "true" answer. We lack the technology to say 100% which side is correct. Doesn't really mean either side should stop. Every time it gets brought up again perhaps new information is added and peoples opinions may change.
Because some people complain about the lack of links even though google exists.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/16/8-facts-about-religion-and-government-in-the-united-states/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/323582/support-legal-marijuana-inches-new-high.aspx
https://morningconsult.com/form/tracking-voter-trust-in-elections/
Wait wait, you are the guy who has been super adamant that private tech platforms have a right to deny service to any and all for reasons of their own choosing are you not? You know this IS a private tech platform correct?
Arent you also the guy who strongly believes that folks should be indefinitely quarantined even if there is no proof they are a threat to community health? These are both things you have championed more than once are they not?
Folks getting kicked out or locked down are ideas you are completely on board with and consider legitimate ways to behave, why should those things not apply in this context Alinsky?
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Wait wait, you are the guy who has been super adamant that private tech platforms have a right to deny service to any and all for reasons of their own choosing are you not? You know this IS a private tech platform correct?
Yes, and so far they have not made any decision on that. I am not the only non conservative here.
Arent you also the guy who strongly believes that folks should be indefinitely quarantined even if there is no proof they are a threat to community health? These are both things you have championed more than once are they not?
Not sure on the relevance. And I've never said indefinitely.
Folks getting kicked out or locked down are ideas you are completely on board with and consider legitimate ways to behave, why should those things not apply in this context Alinsky?
Yes for public health and safety of the nation certain freedoms are relinquished to an extent. Neither apply to this context. If this forum or any site presents itself as a environment for free speech and thought it should do so. Many sites do not advertise themselves as that and the users have to accept that.
I do my best to adhere to all forum rules and have adjusted my posts according to mods. I do not think I deserve any sort of ban.
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nothing to do with your views, everything to do with your etiquette.
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I do my best to adhere to all forum rules and have adjusted my posts according to mods. I do not think I deserve any sort of ban.
No, you do not. There are rules and standards that are accepted and followed by most people online even if the rules are not articulated in writing on every site or forum.
It's like knowing you don't cut in line at the movies or post office even though there are no signs telling you not to.
In fact, other members here have tried to educate you quite often on forum etiquette, but you don't show any sign of accepting their advice.
Common sense only works if you listen to what it's telling you.
1. Before posting your question to a discussion board, check if anyone has asked it already and
received a reply. Just as you wouldn’t repeat a topic of discussion right after it happened in real life,
don’t do that in discussion boards either.
2. Stay on topic – Don’t post irrelevant links, comments, thoughts, or pictures.
3. Don’t type in ALL CAPS! If you do, it will look like you’re screaming.
4. Don’t write anything that sounds angry or sarcastic, even as a joke, because without hearing
your tone of voice, your peers might not realize you’re joking.
5. Always remember to say “Please” and “Thank you” when soliciting help from your fellow members.
6. Respect the opinions of other members. If you feel the need to disagree, do so respectfully and
acknowledge the valid points in your classmate’s argument. Acknowledge that others are entitled to
have their own perspective on the issue.
7. If you reply to a question from someone, make sure your answer is accurate! If you’re not 100%
sure of the answer, DO NOT GUESS! Otherwise, you could really mess things up for someone and
they will not appreciate it.
8. If you ask a question and many people respond, summarize all answers and post that summary to
benefit the whole forum.
9. Be brief. If you write a long dissertation in response to a simple question, it’s unlikely that anyone
will spend the time to read through it all.
10. Don’t badmouth others or call them stupid. You may disagree with their ideas, but don’t mock the
person.
11. If you refer to something someone said earlier in the discussion, quote justa few key lines from
their post so that others wont have to go back and figure out which post you’re referring to.
12. Before asking a question, check the FAQs or search the internet to see if the answer is obvious or
easy to find.
13. Check the most recent comments before you reply to an older comment, since the issue might have
already been resolved or opinions may have changed.
14. Be forgiving. If your classmate makes a mistake, don’t badger him or her for it. Just let it go – it
happens to the best of us.
15. Run a spelling and grammar check before posting anything to the discussion board. It only takes a minute,
and can make the difference between sounding like a fool and sounding knowledgeable.
RULE OF THUMB: If you wouldn’t do or say something in real life, don’t do it online either.
These are the standards most reputable schools teach their students. If a regular student can learn and apply these standards, surely an IT professional from a private school should have no problem with them.
https://blogs.onlineeducation.touro.edu/15-rules-netiquette-online-discussion-boards/
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Oh so that's what's been going on.
I propose to get Inspector back & swap out for another member
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No, you do not. There are rules and standards that are accepted and followed by most people online even if the rules are not articulated in writing on every site or forum.
It's like knowing you don't cut in line at the movies or post office even though there are no signs telling you not to.
In fact, other members here have tried to educate you quite often on forum etiquette, but you don't show any sign of accepting their advice.
Common sense only works if you listen to what it's telling you.
These are the standards most reputable schools teach their students. If a regular student can learn and apply these standards, surely an IT professional from a private school should have no problem with them.
https://blogs.onlineeducation.touro.edu/15-rules-netiquette-online-discussion-boards/
Can you honestly say you follow all of those rules in a much different manner than me? Or other fellow forum members?
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Can you honestly say you follow all of those rules in a much different manor than me? Or other fellow forum members?
stately wayne manor?
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Can you honestly say you follow all of those rules in a much different manor than me? Or other fellow forum members?
It's a fallacy to believe that you "adhere to all forum rules," then try to excuse your lack of adhering to forum rules with the tired old "but you don't follow them either!"
Is your honest answer, "I don't follow the rules because I must follow the example set by others?"
Ever hear of "Two wrongs don't make a right?"
Do you even think about what you post?
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Can you honestly say you follow all of those rules in a much different manor than me? Or other fellow forum members?
someone said it earlier "I know you are, but what am I?!"
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someone said it earlier "I know you are, but what am I?!"
True, I will end the convo with him. I don't see a productive end result.
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someone said it earlier "I know you are, but what am I?!"
He didn't understand your message -- only that he's unable to offer a coherent and intelligent response other than admitting I was right.
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The solution to intentionally disruptive posters trying to farm the ire of the community is simple. Relegate their ability to post in a single thread just for them, that way their rights to free speech are 100% protected, and they are quarantined from smearing poop in every thread on the board. If folks really want to seek out their opinions and engage in banter with a punching bag they easily can without leaving skids marks over the rest of the board.
This solution checks ALL the boxes this poster has championed.
Free Speech is a guaranteed.
Tech's right to segregate content as they see fit
Lock-downs and Quarantines are important for a healthy community.
I think this is at the very least an idea that should be given a trial to test its effectiveness.
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The solution to intentionally disruptive posters trying to farm the ire of the community is simple. Relegate their ability to post in a single thread just for them, that way their rights to free speech are 100% protected, and they are quarantined from smearing poop in every thread on the board. If folks really want to seek out their opinions and engage in banter with a punching bag they easily can without leaving skids marks over the rest of the board.
This solution checks ALL the boxes this poster has championed.
Free Speech is a guaranteed.
Tech's right to segregate content as they see fit
Lock-downs and Quarantines are important for a healthy community.
I think this is at the very least an idea that should be given a trial to test its effectiveness.
About the same level of free speech as that promised free speech site that banned swearing and talking bad about the magic men of the sky.
It could be that some forum members are capable of different thoughts on different subjects. I definitely don't "farm the ire" of people on some subjects like immigration and China, etc.
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About the same level of free speech as that promised free speech site that banned swearing and talking bad about the magic men of the sky.
It could be that some forum members are capable of different thoughts on different subjects. I definitely don't "farm the ire" of people on some subjects like immigration and China, etc.
If the intent of "talking bad" is to insult, demean or simply be argumentative, then the post is unproductive.
One of the duties of mods is to keep the forum from devolving into a food fight.
Free speech can be moderated using standards. As MOST people (not you) are well aware, you are better off never discussing politics and religion at social events. Those two subjects are totally opinion-oriented, and it's a sure bet there will be at least 2 of you there on opposing sides of any political or religious issue. It's improbable that either of you will change your opinions, so it's best not to "exercise your free speech" just because YOU can't control yourself.
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If the intent of "talking bad" is to insult, demean or simply be argumentative, then the post is unproductive.
One of the duties of mods is to keep the forum from devolving into a food fight.
Definition of Umni and your exchanges.
#TrollsinControl
#Why4UserNames
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how about when 2A Political Discussion is getting spammed by DU-colored trolls?
at the same time you're trying to balance with "Freedom of Speech". if you ban them, they declare a victory, it's a bragging point, pin a medal on their chest, significant accomplishment.
On the other hand, they're trying to see where the spamming breaking point is to overwhelm and subvert the forum into a DU-Hawaii echo-chamber. Seems to me, IMHO and only that, the 2A Hawaii Political Discussion should be about politics/politicians that's favorable to 2A, and critical of politics/politicians that's unfavorable to 2A. Discussion that praises politics/politicians that infringe on 2A is trolling.
just my 2 cents, respectively.
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what does DU mean?
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Democratic Underground. it's a social forum of flaming libtards where only libtard posts are allowed, the more extreme, the better. Serious chronic TDS is welcome there. any DU wrong-think is immediately erased, and banned. It's a real good example of an echo-chamber. Dissent is not tolerated, quickly squelched. It is somewhat entertaining to see how the other side thinks, or rationalizes. There are some Hawaii folks on there (judging from their screen names), who'd have guessed.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002 (https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002)