Poll

What is your stance on abortion?

Under no circumstances allowed
33.3%
Under rape/incest
20.8%
Under Medical or Genetic issues.
8.3%
Personal choice
33.3%
Forced
4.2%
Total Members Voted
24

Abortion (Read 22269 times)

omnigun

Abortion
« on: October 12, 2020, 01:37:47 PM »
Lets have the roundup thread because it keeps popping up in other threads.   Try keep most of the talk here.

Abortion is not protected by the Constitution outright in specific language, it can still fall under the penumbra of constitutional protections (Griswold v. Connecticut). In the same way the constitution did not specifically say speech over the internet is protected under the first amendment, or semi-automatic firearms are protected under the second amendment, there can be a logical inference that they fall within the constitutional shadow and are thus protected.

Currently Abortion is protected under the 14th amendment.

The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental "right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion.  This also applies to doctors.

Also, of interesting relevance to us here in the firearms community, abortion and gun control are basically the same argument from polar opposite sides:

Primary argument: "We need to ban (guns/abortions) for the sake of the children"
Courts rule: "no you can't ban (guns/abortions) outright, but states can make their own policies."
Individual states: "Well we don't like (guns/abortions) so we're gonna throw up obstacles like waiting periods, and mandatory classes, and proof of competency, and make it really hard to have (guns/abortions) in our state."

Believing the federal government or states should have the right to restrict one and not the other is quite hypocritical.

I believe both should be protected federally for everyone.  I think no matter if you are against abortion for religious or scientific views.  You should support the ability for all individuals in any state to make up their decision on what they believe if its prochoice or prolife on their own.   Same with free speech, gun rights etc.  It should be protected choice of freedom nationwide.

This applies to the press and everything.  The left super liberals news have as much right to run as the right conservative news.  You may hate on the other but you should protect their right to exist.  Same with guns and everything.  You can't pick and choose freedom.

Edited some posts together, used some words from Antisepsis

I voted choice 4,  Personal choice.  Much like gun rights

Brystont1

Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 01:56:06 PM »
Lets have the roundup thread because it keeps popping up in other threads.   Try keep most of the talk here.

Abortion is not protected by the Constitution outright in specific language, it can still fall under the penumbra of constitutional protections (Griswold v. Connecticut). In the same way the constitution did not specifically say speech over the internet is protected under the first amendment, or semi-automatic firearms are protected under the second amendment, there can be a logical inference that they fall within the constitutional shadow and are thus protected.

Currently Abortion is protected under the 14th amendment.

The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental "right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion.  This also applies to doctors.

Also, of interesting relevance to us here in the firearms community, abortion and gun control are basically the same argument from polar opposite sides:

Primary argument: "We need to ban (guns/abortions) for the sake of the children"
Courts rule: "no you can't ban (guns/abortions) outright, but states can make their own policies."
Individual states: "Well we don't like (guns/abortions) so we're gonna throw up obstacles like waiting periods, and mandatory classes, and proof of competency, and make it really hard to have (guns/abortions) in our state."

Believing the federal government or states should have the right to restrict one and not the other is quite hypocritical.

I believe both should be protected federally for everyone.  I think no matter if you are against abortion for religious or scientific views.  You should support the ability for all individuals in any state to make up their decision on what they believe if its prochoice or prolife on their own.   Same with free speech, gun rights etc.  It should be protected choice of freedom nationwide.

This applies to the press and everything.  The left super liberals news have as much right to run as the right conservative news.  You may hate on the other but you should protect their right to exist.  Same with guns and everything.  You can't pick and choose freedom.

Edited some posts together, used some words from Antisepsis

I voted choice 4,  Personal choice.  Much like gun rights

The one argument you seem to gloss over, and it is the only one that matters, is whether or not a fetus is a life. Any other argument is irrelevant. I’ve seen in multiple threads you talk about “freedom as long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s freedom.” Well abortion, if you believe a fetus is a human life, does infringe on the babies right to life.

Now if everyone could just agree that abortion Is not something to be proud of we could probably lay this topic to rest. At the end of the day, even as a pro life conservative I could live with abortion as long as it is rare, and not used as a method of birth control. When feminist start spouting “my body my choice” and “I’m proud of my abortion’s” the topic tends to go directly into the gutter.

You want your abortions? Fine, get it and shut the fuck up about it.

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 02:11:06 PM »
The one argument you seem to gloss over, and it is the only one that matters, is whether or not a fetus is a life. Any other argument is irrelevant. I’ve seen in multiple threads you talk about “freedom as long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s freedom.” Well abortion, if you believe a fetus is a human life, does infringe on the babies right to life.

Now if everyone could just agree that abortion Is not something to be proud of we could probably lay this topic to rest. At the end of the day, even as a pro life conservative I could live with abortion as long as it is rare, and not used as a method of birth control. When feminist start spouting “my body my choice” and “I’m proud of my abortion’s” the topic tends to go directly into the gutter.

You want your abortions? Fine, get it and shut the fuck up about it.

I purposely tried to leave that out because there's no convincing someone.  People have different opinions on that.  I don't think its alive.  But I doubt I will convince anyone here.  The easiest way to convince people is have them agree its a individuals choice and not to push their beliefs on others.

The only reason that feminist is screaming is because the other side is threatening.  Im sure if we had no restrictions, the feminist side wouldn't have to protest.   Same way we are protesting losing our gun rights but im sure if we had all of our rights we wouldn't be in the streets fighting.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2020, 02:11:35 PM »
Your poll choices are incorrect.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2020, 02:12:47 PM »
Your poll choices are incorrect.

How so?.

I think this covers all options unless I missed one?

Under no circumstances allowed

Under rape/incest

Under Medical or Genetic issues.

Personal choice

Forced

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2020, 02:17:37 PM »
A Scientific View of When Life Begins

Quote
Dr. Condic is Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Adjunct Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Utah School of Medicine.
Quote
The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally
accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific
evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications). Moreover, it is entirely independent of any
specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos. Indeed, this definition
does not directly address the central ethical question surrounding the embryo: What value ought society place
on human life at the earliest stages of development?  A neutral examination of the evidence merely establishes
the onset of a new human life at a scientifically well-defined “moment of conception,” a conclusion
that unequivocally indicates that human embryos from the one-cell stage forward are indeed living individuals
of the human species; i.e., human beings.


https://lozierinstitute.org/a-scientific-view-of-when-life-begins/
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2020, 02:23:22 PM »
Quote
What Is Science?

There is a lot of posturing about science in the world of politics, but some of what is reported as “science” is
actually just the claims of selected scientists, which happen to be at odds with the facts of science.

Science, in the words of Webster’s College Dictionary, is the “systematic knowledge of the physical or material
world gained through observation and experimentation.” Notably, this does not entail parroting the assertions
of someone with scientific credentials.

In the realm of science, what matters is facts and logically inescapable conclusions that flow from them—not
opinions, no matter who voices them or how prevalent they are. A classic example of this is Galileo, who wrote
that when it comes to the sciences, “the authority of thousands of opinions is not worth as much as one tiny
spark of reason in an individual man.”

In this instance, Rubio is that man, and Carmon, Bump, and ACOG are substituting their ideology for science
in the public debate over abortion.

https://www.justfactsdaily.com/the-science-of-abortion-when-does-life-begin
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2020, 02:24:59 PM »
How so?.

I think this covers all options unless I missed one?

Under no circumstances allowed

Under rape/incest

Under Medical or Genetic issues.

Personal choice

Forced

Only one option can be selected.  This separates options that belong together.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2020, 02:29:22 PM »

changemyoil66

Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2020, 02:29:26 PM »
I went to mcdonalds and got a baked strawberry pie. Not that deep fried shit.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2020, 02:30:16 PM »
Only one option can be selected.  This separates options that belong together.

Pick the one closest,  its to prevent people voting "twice"  Also I cant modify.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2020, 02:32:19 PM »
https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/04/when-does-life-begin-outside-the-christian-right-the-answer-is-over-time.html

TLDR: No one can say, no consensus religious or scientific.

Science already says.  You just disagree with the science.  A lot has been discovered and proven in life sciences since the 1970s.

Science is not based on "consensus".  It's based on observation and experimentation.  If you think consensus equals scientific fact, then you never hear the Earth was deemed by SCIENTISTS to be FLAT.

Consensus.  Same argument used for Climate Change.  Mob-dictated narratives.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 02:33:34 PM »
Science already says.  You just disagree with the science.  A lot has been discovered and proven in life sciences since the 1970s.

Science hasn't proven when consciousness beings. That is when I believe humanity beings.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 02:35:26 PM »
I went to mcdonalds and got a baked strawberry pie. Not that deep fried shit.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Real strawberries, or that Frankenberry Fauxberries?
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 02:44:39 PM »
Pick the one closest,  its to prevent people voting "twice"  Also I cant modify.

That alone demonstrates you haven't read or retained what many of us here took much time and effort to post multiple times in response to your nonstop pro-abortion opinions.

To repeat myself and others, most people accept abortion decisions WITH limits and exceptions:

-  limited to the first trimester, with the exceptions of:
    -  actual risk to the mother's life ... if carrying to term or birth threatens her life
    -  if the child was a result of rape
    -  if the child was a result of incest
(should not assume that rape or incest are always going to be acceptable as a single exception clause)

I strongly want to include "-  if the parents are Liberal/Progressive/Socialist elitists", but I'll leave it at the above. 


Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

ren

Re: Abortion
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2020, 02:47:30 PM »
All these threads omnigun created are designed to fracture us as a small community. Derails other threads then creates these divisive threads. No other purpose.

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 02:47:51 PM »
That alone demonstrates you haven't read or retained what many of us here took much time and effort to post multiple times in response to your nonstop pro-abortion opinions.

To repeat myself and others, most people accept abortion decisions WITH limits and exceptions:

-  limited to the first trimester, with the exceptions of:
    -  actual risk to the mother's life ... if carrying to term or birth threatens her life
    -  if the child was a result of rape
    -  if the child was a result of incest
(should not assume that rape or incest are always going to be acceptable as a single exception clause)

I strongly want to include "-  if the parents are Liberal/Progressive/Socialist elitists", but I'll leave it at the above.

There's no poll detailed enough for you.  If I started to age length of time or heartbeats or exact circumstances, who the parents were etc we would have a 100 line poll. Use the post like this one to explain your beliefs. 

changemyoil66

Re: Abortion
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 02:47:52 PM »
PP donates 50 million to DNC. Yet they need funding?

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changemyoil66

Re: Abortion
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 02:48:27 PM »
All these threads omnigun created are designed to fracture us as a small community. Derails other threads then creates these divisive threads. No other purpose.
Nah, just him. Pretty much everyone disagrees. 5 guys tell u ur drunk, u better not drive home.

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omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 02:50:05 PM »
All these threads omnigun created are designed to fracture us as a small community. Derails other threads then creates these divisive threads. No other purpose.

No I am trying to get everyone more accepting.  So we can welcome the new liberal gun owners.  There are plenty of new gun owners out there that do not share many of "your" views.  We need to branch out not in.  If we want to secure our rights we have to adapt to the new generations and people. The more popular your rights are the better you keep them.

I know some more liberal folks and I can't tell you the amount of times they are interested but they think the gun community is a bunch of redneck religious hicks who hate women's/lgbt rights etc.