The COVID Cult (Read 131496 times)

punaperson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2020, 10:05:41 AM »
Clearly the United States under Trump and his current policies or lack of is not doing well.  Those include the aversion to masks.
Compared to what, exactly?

There is no correlation, much less causation, between mask wearing, mask mandates and rates of infection. Anyone who claims otherwise is an ignoramus or a propagandist.









Etc., etc., etc.

omnigun

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2020, 10:51:44 AM »
Compared to what, exactly?

There is no correlation, much less causation, between mask wearing, mask mandates and rates of infection. Anyone who claims otherwise is an ignoramus or a propagandist.

snip

Etc., etc., etc.

Most Asian countries, Australia, New Zealand would say otherwise.  We can both pick things that look good for either argument.  Its not only about masks but culture and other rules.  Europe is like the USA, in that they were very loose with opening back up and having strict covid rules.

Also this shows European leadership sucks too. Along with Trump they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

punaperson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2020, 11:46:25 AM »
Most Asian countries, Australia, New Zealand would say otherwise.  We can both pick things that look good for either argument.  Its not only about masks but culture and other rules.  Europe is like the USA, in that they were very loose with opening back up and having strict covid rules.

Also this shows European leadership sucks too. Along with Trump they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Show me the graphs indicating that instituting a mask mandate on a particular date drove down the rate of infection or total infections over the long term.

eyeeatingfish

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2020, 09:49:47 PM »
The problem with mask mandates is that they are over reaching and impractical.

I get we can question their effectiveness but how are mask mandates overreaching or impractical? It is nearly the most minor thing they could ask of us.

Brystont1

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2020, 10:19:49 PM »
I get we can question their effectiveness but how are mask mandates overreaching or impractical? It is nearly the most minor thing they could ask of us.

When a cop comes up to me while I’m with my wife and child and tells us we need to be 6ft apart or wear masks while at the beach I find that pretty overreaching. What next? They gonna pull me over while driving cuz my family doesn’t have masks on in the car?

omnigun

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2020, 10:21:39 PM »
When a cop comes up to me while I’m with my wife and child and tells us we need to be 6ft apart or wear masks while at the beach I find that pretty overreaching. What next? They gonna pull me over while driving cuz my family doesn’t have masks on in the car?

When was this?  During lockdown or recent?

eyeeatingfish

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2020, 10:27:54 PM »
When a cop comes up to me while I’m with my wife and child and tells us we need to be 6ft apart or wear masks while at the beach I find that pretty overreaching. What next? They gonna pull me over while driving cuz my family doesn’t have masks on in the car?

Ok, I was more referring to basic mask requirements like wearing them in the store or on the bus, etc. I didn't have in mind the asinine enforcement like that.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2020, 12:29:26 AM »
Ok, I was more referring to basic mask requirements like wearing them in the store or on the bus, etc. I didn't have in mind the asinine enforcement like that.

There's video circulating of a passenger on SW Air eating his food he brought onboard while wearing a mask.  He pulled the mask down, took a bite, and before he could replace the mask, a flight attendant ordered him to get his things, that he was being removed from the flight!

At least 5 people in the video spoke up saying the guy was following the rules as they were just explained to the passengers, but he was still being told he had to leave.

There's no way to fairly enforce these rules/laws/mandates/ordinances.  That's what makes them overreaching and draconian (good word; look it up).
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

punaperson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2020, 09:54:39 PM »
I get we can question their effectiveness but how are mask mandates overreaching or impractical? It is nearly the most minor thing they could ask of us.
If they can enforce a law that puts you in prison for a year and fine you $5,000 they are NOT "asking".

And, you moron, mask mandates are "impractical" if masks don't work, which they don't, and thus can't possibly achieve any "goal" stated as rationale for the law. Go read the CDC systematic review of 10 Randomized Controlled Trials (" Dr." Fauci's only acceptable type of evidence) which concludes "In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community.… There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

As for "overreaching"... seriously?

eyeeatingfish

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2020, 10:08:54 PM »
If they can enforce a law that puts you in prison for a year and fine you $5,000 they are NOT "asking".

And, you moron, mask mandates are "impractical" if masks don't work, which they don't, and thus can't possibly achieve any "goal" stated as rationale for the law. Go read the CDC systematic review of 10 Randomized Controlled Trials (" Dr." Fauci's only acceptable type of evidence) which concludes "In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community.… There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

As for "overreaching"... seriously?

I don't agree with the fine but that's not what I am talking about, I am talking about the mask wearing rules themselves, it's not some bit violation of our rights to have us cover our mouths with a small piece of cloth.

Have you thought, maybe if people followed the guidelines and rules then we wouldn't need fines? But no, we have idiots ignoring the rules.

And yes, there is loads of evidence that masks are effective. There have been many experiments that showed the effectiveness of reducing water droplets spread, one of the primary ways covid spreads.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2020, 11:23:00 PM »
I don't agree with the fine but that's not what I am talking about, I am talking about the mask wearing rules themselves, it's not some bit violation of our rights to have us cover our mouths with a small piece of cloth.

Have you thought, maybe if people followed the guidelines and rules then we wouldn't need fines? But no, we have idiots ignoring the rules.

And yes, there is loads of evidence that masks are effective. There have been many experiments that showed the effectiveness of reducing water droplets spread, one of the primary ways covid spreads.

Do you honestly believe the people creating the fines ever pay them, even though there is video and photo evidence of them violating the rules?

That's what we find unconscionable.  "Rules for thee, but not for me."

Those morons should have TRIPLE the fines and serve TRIPLE the jail time, because .... higher standard.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 11:49:34 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

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Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2020, 11:46:39 PM »
maybe if people followed the guidelines and rules then we wouldn't need fines? But no, we have idiots ignoring the rules.

That is a classic sign of a psy-op. The government was "forced" to take extraordinary measures because it is all our fault. We are beaten over the head with Personal Responsibility Propaganda and meanwhile the people in charge are total screw ups with no accountability who do not even follow their own advice and demand censorship of any evidence that does not support their agenda. Point this out and you are a "crazy conspiracy theorist" who selfishly wants grandma to die.

We are being told the only way to save the republic is to destroy the republic, which is the sort of circular thinking that even functionally illiterate people would be able to recognize if they were not worked up by a media fear campaign of daily death tolls and infection rates that are mostly meaningless.

Jmoto808

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2020, 02:04:45 AM »
I don't agree with the fine but that's not what I am talking about, I am talking about the mask wearing rules themselves, it's not some bit violation of our rights to have us cover our mouths with a small piece of cloth.

Have you thought, maybe if people followed the guidelines and rules then we wouldn't need fines? But no, we have idiots ignoring the rules.

And yes, there is loads of evidence that masks are effective. There have been many experiments that showed the effectiveness of reducing water droplets spread, one of the primary ways covid spreads.

Im not sure one can factually state there is "loads" of evidence that masks are effective. There are studies on both sides of the argument that show a mask may be effective, and the term mask is very ambiguous. A mask can be on the spectrum of a gator to a simple face mask to a cotton mask to an n95 to a respirator. Not all are equal and some can cause more harm in the spread of covid.

I do agree that masks may help reduce droplet particles. But the issue with covid is that it is not solely droplet particles that are the issue. It is the airborne aspect that seems to make it so virulent in its infectious potential. a simple face mask (medical term we use for the common "colored" mask you see) is NOT used for airborne protection. It is used for droplet particles only and its intended use is 1x. An N95 or similar mask is what is intended for airborne particles. So for someone to say that people are idiots for not following rules that are NOT based in science is completely disingenuous.

as an RN, one of the most logical thoughts I've read / studied behind the face masks is its ability to reduce viral load on the receiving end. There is a theory (yes a theory because its impossible to have meta analytical data this early on in a pandemic), that the face masks can help produce herd immunity by reducing the viral load of a recipient. Basically, instead of thousands of covid particles being inhaled, a person could possibly turn that number into hundreds of viral particles inhaled by wearing a cloth or simple face mask. This reduced viral load could potentially allow the persons immune system to build a defense and have a "lesser" response to the viral infection. Sort of like gaining an active immunity. This is somewhat supported by the evidence of the frontline health care workers in places such as new york dying at a high rate. These nurses ran out of PPE and were subjects to massive viral loads on a daily basis.

Why does herd immunity seem like a logical answer to this pandemic?
Besides possibly one or two cases of "reinfection", there doesn't seem to be many studies regarding the reinfection rate of covid. Yes you can find a few examples, but there is just not enough evidence to support that factually you can get covid twice. One of the ladies had cancer, which should automatically nullify that example. Which should also give us confidence in a vaccine (pending any side effects, since this vaccine was speed rushed).

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Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2020, 02:36:24 AM »
Im not sure one can factually state there is "loads" of evidence that masks are effective. There are studies on both sides of the argument that show a mask may be effective, and the term mask is very ambiguous. A mask can be on the spectrum of a gator to a simple face mask to a cotton mask to an n95 to a respirator. Not all are equal and some can cause more harm in the spread of covid.

I do agree that masks may help reduce droplet particles. But the issue with covid is that it is not solely droplet particles that are the issue. It is the airborne aspect that seems to make it so virulent in its infectious potential. a simple face mask (medical term we use for the common "colored" mask you see) is NOT used for airborne protection. It is used for droplet particles only and its intended use is 1x. An N95 or similar mask is what is intended for airborne particles. So for someone to say that people are idiots for not following rules that are NOT based in science is completely disingenuous.

as an RN, one of the most logical thoughts I've read / studied behind the face masks is its ability to reduce viral load on the receiving end. There is a theory (yes a theory because its impossible to have meta analytical data this early on in a pandemic), that the face masks can help produce herd immunity by reducing the viral load of a recipient. Basically, instead of thousands of covid particles being inhaled, a person could possibly turn that number into hundreds of viral particles inhaled by wearing a cloth or simple face mask. This reduced viral load could potentially allow the persons immune system to build a defense and have a "lesser" response to the viral infection. Sort of like gaining an active immunity. This is somewhat supported by the evidence of the frontline health care workers in places such as new york dying at a high rate. These nurses ran out of PPE and were subjects to massive viral loads on a daily basis.

Why does herd immunity seem like a logical answer to this pandemic?
Besides possibly one or two cases of "reinfection", there doesn't seem to be many studies regarding the reinfection rate of covid. Yes you can find a few examples, but there is just not enough evidence to support that factually you can get covid twice. One of the ladies had cancer, which should automatically nullify that example. Which should also give us confidence in a vaccine (pending any side effects, since this vaccine was speed rushed).
One of the different hats I have worn as an Inspector over the years was also a Safety Officer/Administrator/Facilitator. I had some training with all types of masks and respirators and what you stated here coincides exactly with the training I received. Of course we didn’t have COVID back then but viruses such as the flu were used as examples. Masks have their place but due to the VERY limited effectiveness of the masks most people use and how they use them it seems to give people a false sense of security. As it is the latest CDC report shows that most of the people who get COVID-19 “Always Wore Masks”.

https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/new-cdc-study-finds-majority-of-those-infected-with-covid-19-always-wore-masks/

I am not in the same field as you and my training might be dated as well. But in my opinion from the training I received the masks that most people use are not very effective in preventing the spread of the virus. What has helped in preventing the spread more than masks has been the lockdowns and social distancing. The problem with lockdowns and social distancing is that it is only kicking the can down the road and the virus infection rate will come right back after lockdowns and social distancing rules are no longer enforced. Just like with the flu and cold viruses.

I live in a state/county where mask rules are only suggestions. Most people here don’t wear them unless they are required by the business demanding them. Yet I still see people not wearing them and the demands of the business are not being enforced. Yet our infection rate is holding steady where Maricopa County is once again increasing. While masks have their place I honestly see them as mostly ineffective in stopping virus infections.
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

punaperson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2020, 06:40:48 AM »

robtmc

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2020, 07:36:24 AM »
No doubt the blocked liberals are enthusiastic for the gubmint overreach, Mandate masks while showering and sleeping, can never be too safe..   

https://youtu.be/2DDXG-dHugc

ren

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2020, 08:03:16 AM »
they tell us to wear masks but apparently they are immune to the Covidness

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Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2020, 12:52:02 PM »
Get this, my wife was informed by her eye surgeon and eye doctor the next time she comes in she cannot wear her cloth mask she just bought. No gators or cloth masks now. Only the paper masks are allowed. 🤦‍♂️
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!

punaperson

Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2020, 01:23:19 PM »
Get this, my wife was informed by her eye surgeon and eye doctor the next time she comes in she cannot wear her cloth mask she just bought. No gators or cloth masks now. Only the paper masks are allowed. 🤦‍♂️

Oh, no, don't tell me now there's a "problem" with cloth masks! /sarc

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Re: The COVID Cult
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2020, 01:52:43 PM »

Oh, no, don't tell me now there's a "problem" with cloth masks! /sarc
You mean like they are not effective?  :rofl:
MASS ELECTION FRAUD OCCURRED!!! - 99.9% OF ALL 2A MEMBERS AGREE!!!
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN!!! - THE EVIDENCE PROVES IT!!!
TRUMP IS THE REAL PRESIDENT!!! - BIDEN IS A FRAUD!!!
MASKS DON’T WORK!!! - THE REAL SCIENCE PROVES IT!!!!
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK!!! THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!!!