Ethics of mandatory vaccinations (Read 1456 times)

drck1000

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2021, 04:49:30 PM »
I concur, I personally found the FBI making empty threats of 'you MIGHT be breaking the law' pretty pathetic.
Ahh, gotcha. . .

Yeah, those intent on breaking laws are gonna be shakin. . . just like how criminals are affected by laws and threats of when they MIGHT be breaking laws. . .

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2021, 04:52:23 PM »
Some of them do, but not usually for questionable experimental drugs that specifically target diseases that young healthy people do not have to worry about

Since the COVID vaccines are NOT being made available for minors, schools requiring shots is a catch-22 situation.

Who sets the arbitrary age cut-off for requiring the shots?  Do all minors mature at the same rate?  Will all 13 year olds be identical in their reaction to the vaccine?
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

Glasser

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2021, 08:06:57 PM »
Since the COVID vaccines are NOT being made available for minors, schools requiring shots is a catch-22 situation.

Who sets the arbitrary age cut-off for requiring the shots?  Do all minors mature at the same rate?  Will all 13 year olds be identical in their reaction to the vaccine?

Kaiser sent me an email yesterday saying 16 yrs and older is  on the table to get vaccinated now. I dont know why any parent would let their kid get that stuff shot in them.

Does no one remember Thalidomide?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

https://usthalidomide.org/our-story-thalidomide-babies-us/

hvybarrels

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Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2021, 08:18:18 PM »
My theory is if they want to cut me out of the economy then I will beat them to the punch. There are way too many fun projects fixing old stuff to ever get bored, so why do I need to work my butt off for shiny new crap that falls apart faster anyway? Books are cheaper than concerts and movies, and there are plenty of waves to surf on this island so I really do not have to travel by plane. Even cooking at home is way healthier and you save a ton of money. If the beast wants to tell me how to live then the beast can get on without my support.

Jl808

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2021, 06:35:34 AM »
Here is a good article that doesn't just parrot what the leftists / statists are pushing but actually discussing the ethics of mandatory vaccinations

https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/coronavirus/2020/12/would-mandatory-covid-19-vaccine-be-ethically-justified

Quote
If we believe that widespread lockdowns are acceptable in the face of Covid-19, then we should also believe that mandatory vaccination is acceptable. Likewise, if we accept the Mental Health Act 1983, which permits compulsory medical treatment of detained persons in certain circumstances, then we should accept that there is basis for mandatory Covid-19 in the law. These are the – rather contentious – arguments that a group of ethicists made to the UK government when it solicited evidence on the human rights implications of the pandemic."

"This has led ethicists to ask whether mandatory Covid-19 vaccination could be ethically justified. The answer involves a complex trade-off between personal autonomy, bodily integrity and the public good."

(snip)

"The ethical arguments for mandatory vaccination are typically based on ensuring the best outcome for the greatest number of people. There remain many uncertainties about what would be required to build herd immunity to Covid-19 taking into account the current crop of vaccines, but for other diseases herd immunity has been achieved with a mixture of natural and vaccine-induced immunity. Once the herd immunity threshold is reached within a population, vulnerable people who are unable to be vaccinated are protected regardless. For Covid-19, estimates of the herd immunity threshold typically hover between 60 and 70 per cent."

"The director of the Uehiro Centre, Julian Savulescu, writes that from an ethics perspective, a number of conditions should be met in order to justify a mandatory vaccination programme, including that: “there is a grave threat to public health", "the vaccine is safe and effective", "mandatory vaccination has a superior cost/benefit profile compared with other alternatives" and "the level of coercion is proportionate”.

Douglas has examined the third of these conditions in the context of Covid-19, looking at the trade-off between a mandatory vaccine and lockdown restrictions. In ethical terms, what do we consider more acceptable, a mandatory lockdown or a mandatory vaccine? Do we hold freedom of movement or freedom from nonconsensual bodily interference (what is known in ethics literature as the “right to bodily integrity”) in greater regard?"

(snip)

Many of us would judge the latter to be a greater violation of the convict’s rights, even if it would allow him to live a free life outside prison. “It is taken as an assumption by a lot of lawyers and ethicists that the right to bodily integrity is somehow more fundamental and stronger than the right to free movement and association,” said Douglas. This belief stems partly from the horrific historical precedents for medical experimentation on prisoners.

(snip)

Many have challenged the ethical basis for lockdowns on the grounds that there is not sufficient evidence that they work, that the interventions aren’t proportionate to the threat, and/or that the infringement on civil liberties is too egregious or the consequences too grave. Legal action has been taken against lockdowns in the UK, the US and elsewhere.

“Bodily integrity really goes back to questions of personal autonomy, so ‘I should only be jammed in the arm with a needle if I’ve agreed to do that with full information and consent’,” said Hugh Whittall, the director of the Nuffield Council on Bioethics. “To interfere with that autonomy to make decisions that concern my body, or my choices, has to be justified by some overarching public health requirement.”

The Nuffield Council has issued guidance advising that mandatory vaccines are only acceptable when the disease in question is extremely deadly or if a country is very close to entirely eradicating a disease. “It’s difficult to see that the current situation is one that would meet that threshold to justify an overall mandatory vaccination,” said Whittall.

(snip)

When coronavirus first started spreading through China and Italy, scientists estimated that the CFR could be as high as 15 per cent. Since then, this figure has been dramatically revised downwards; for example, in England in August it was 1.5 per cent. Data from Iceland, where the most testing per capita has been carried out, suggests that the IFR could be as low as 0.03 to 0.28 per cent. A review by John Ioannidis, published in October in the Bulletin of the World Health Organization, finds a median IFR of 0.2 across 51 locations. The UK government downgraded Covid-19 from a high-consequence infectious disease in March.

(snip)

Another dimension in the ethical debate over mandatory vaccination is whether the vaccine is safe and effective. All medical interventions come with some element of risk, and that includes vaccines. Rigorous safety trials keep the risk very low, but if a drug is administered to millions, or even billions of people (as is the plan with the Covid-19 vaccines), the likelihood of some people suffering an adverse reaction is high. A common metaphor to illustrate this is seatbelts: in the vast majority of cases, seatbelts save lives; however, in a tiny minority they can injure or even kill their wearer.

“[A] reason why I think it would be hard to justify mandatory vaccination for Covid is that we have less information about the risks than we would to justify, say, mandatory flu vaccination,” said Douglas. Although all the Covid-19 vaccines are going through safety trials, there is no long-term data available on side effects. The majority would conclude that contracting Covid-19 is riskier than taking the vaccine for it, but depriving people of making this judgement for themselves based on the available data would be ethically questionable.
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eyeeatingfish

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2021, 08:48:33 PM »
I support vaccines, including the covid ones. I think the available evidence shows they are safe (much safer than getting covid) and effective.

That being said when you start trying to make vaccinations mandatory now I have a problem. If you want people to get shots use the carrot, not the stick. The minute you do something at the barrel of a gun you make things worse in my opinion.

Legally speaking, as I understand it, the supreme court has upheld mandatory vaccines so I am not sure much can be done in the way of legal challenges.

hvybarrels

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Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2021, 09:41:30 PM »
8 week trial means nobody knows if they are dangerous or not, but plenty of people continue to pretend like they do know. We call those kinds of people liars.

omnigun

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2021, 10:10:28 PM »
8 week trial means nobody knows if they are dangerous or not, but plenty of people continue to pretend like they do know. We call those kinds of people liars.

8 weeks?

Vaccine has been tested for atleast 6 months.

hvybarrels

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Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2021, 10:11:48 PM »
We are the test

hvybarrels

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Q

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2021, 01:28:54 AM »
Great.  Most schools require vaccinations to attend.  This is nothing out of norm.

Schools can only enforce mandatory vaccines if there is a federal mandate. Federally mandated vaccines can only be implemented if it is FDA approved, which every covid vaccine isn't. FDA Emergency Use Authorization cannot circumvent FDA approval, which is when the agency has determined that the benefits of the product outweigh the known risks for the intended use.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2021, 10:04:39 PM »
8 week trial means nobody knows if they are dangerous or not, but plenty of people continue to pretend like they do know. We call those kinds of people liars.

This is a bit of a misnomer, that it is such a new vaccine that was never tested for long periods of time. The mRNA form of vaccine has been in research and testing for decades already. Not specifically for covid of course but they have been working with this technology for quite a while.

I did read an article yesterday about side effects of vaccines and it said that historically when vaccines have had serious side effects that they have nearly always shown up relatively quickly, 2 months IIRC. So if you wait for at least two months on these new vaccines and they haven't found serious side effects then the risk of later side effects would seem to be quite low.

The whole argument of "unknown side effects" skeptical of vaccines always bring up but they are really a double edged sword. While they don't know the side effects of the vaccine 5-10 years from now, they also don't know the side effects 5-10 years after having covid either.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2021, 10:20:22 PM »
This is a bit of a misnomer, that it is such a new vaccine that was never tested for long periods of time. The mRNA form of vaccine has been in research and testing for decades already. Not specifically for covid of course but they have been working with this technology for quite a while.

I did read an article yesterday about side effects of vaccines and it said that historically when vaccines have had serious side effects that they have nearly always shown up relatively quickly, 2 months IIRC. So if you wait for at least two months on these new vaccines and they haven't found serious side effects then the risk of later side effects would seem to be quite low.

The whole argument of "unknown side effects" skeptical of vaccines always bring up but they are really a double edged sword. While they don't know the side effects of the vaccine 5-10 years from now, they also don't know the side effects 5-10 years after having covid either.

The problem with THIS vaccine family is that you CAN'T draw similarities regarding side effects to vaccines of the past.  "that it is such a new vaccine" negates your historical reference -- that serious side effects have nearly always shown up relatively quickly, (2 months).  Since those vaccines were derived most often from organic sources, such as the living or dead viruses themselves, and this new family of vaccines changes the body's DNA to generate the required antibodies is enough to say we are sailing in uncharted waters.

If the technology and research have been around for years, and there have been no previous vaccines used for other diseases, why would we think this is something we should embrace 100%?  I think it was great that Operation Warp Speed produced a CANDIDATE vaccine so quickly, but that vaccine should also be tested and studied just as much as any other vaccine -- probably more so -- precisely because it IS a technologically new vaccine for a new virus.

I can't believe drugs we have known to be safe for many decades -- like anti-malarial drugs -- were scoffed at as irresponsible and "not scientific," yet a mostly untested vaccine based on new technology for a perviously unknown disease should be shot into 100% of peoples' arms without delay.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

omnigun

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2021, 06:21:52 AM »
The problem with THIS vaccine family is that you CAN'T draw similarities regarding side effects to vaccines of the past.  "that it is such a new vaccine" negates your historical reference -- that serious side effects have nearly always shown up relatively quickly, (2 months).  Since those vaccines were derived most often from organic sources, such as the living or dead viruses themselves, and this new family of vaccines changes the body's DNA to generate the required antibodies is enough to say we are sailing in uncharted waters.

If the technology and research have been around for years, and there have been no previous vaccines used for other diseases, why would we think this is something we should embrace 100%?  I think it was great that Operation Warp Speed produced a CANDIDATE vaccine so quickly, but that vaccine should also be tested and studied just as much as any other vaccine -- probably more so -- precisely because it IS a technologically new vaccine for a new virus.

I can't believe drugs we have known to be safe for many decades -- like anti-malarial drugs -- were scoffed at as irresponsible and "not scientific," yet a mostly untested vaccine based on new technology for a perviously unknown disease should be shot into 100% of peoples' arms without delay.

#fakenews
This vaccine doesn't CHANGE your DNA. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2021, 12:16:02 PM »
#fakenews
This vaccine doesn't CHANGE your DNA.

I misquoted.

mRNA uses the DNA of the virus to INSTRUCT THE BODY to produce the proteins contained in the virus,  The body then SHOULD produce the antibodies needed to fight off the proteins it was taught to produce.

If you learn a new skill, does that not "change" you?  Changes do not have to be physical.

mRNA teaches the body to produce antibodies by causing the body to produce part of the virus using the virus' DNA.  If that's not changing the body, then I'm sure you will argue some more.
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

macsak

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2021, 12:21:34 PM »
I misquoted.

mRNA uses the DNA of the virus to INSTRUCT THE BODY to produce the proteins contained in the virus,  The body then SHOULD produce the antibodies needed to fight off the proteins it was taught to produce.

If you learn a new skill, does that not "change" you?  Changes do not have to be physical.

mRNA teaches the body to produce antibodies by causing the body to produce part of the virus using the virus' DNA.  If that's not changing the body, then I'm sure you will argue some more.

virii do not have DNA...

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2021, 12:25:28 PM »
virii do not have DNA...

mRNA

I had very little sleep this morning.   :sleeping:
Surely Not Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting.

changemyoil66

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2021, 01:33:38 PM »
Schools can only enforce mandatory vaccines if there is a federal mandate. Federally mandated vaccines can only be implemented if it is FDA approved, which every covid vaccine isn't. FDA Emergency Use Authorization cannot circumvent FDA approval, which is when the agency has determined that the benefits of the product outweigh the known risks for the intended use.

And why the military hasn't required them either.  I mean is the COVID vaxx any worst than the peanut butter shot?

Q

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2021, 07:27:51 PM »
And why the military hasn't required them either.  I mean is the COVID vaxx any worst than the peanut butter shot?

Probably not. We were injected with so much stuff during in processing and pre deployment, it was hard to keep track.

I will say that my hesitation with vaccines did come from my experiences in the military. After getting all the in-processing vaccinations, I became extremely susceptible to and contracted numerous staph infections (something that wasn't an issue previously), to include what was believed to be a weird form of MRSA in Afghanistan.

changemyoil66

Re: Ethics of mandatory vaccinations
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2021, 09:57:01 AM »
Probably not. We were injected with so much stuff during in processing and pre deployment, it was hard to keep track.

I will say that my hesitation with vaccines did come from my experiences in the military. After getting all the in-processing vaccinations, I became extremely susceptible to and contracted numerous staph infections (something that wasn't an issue previously), to include what was believed to be a weird form of MRSA in Afghanistan.

Don't forget the "gulf war syndrome" that had a hearing in DC.  I was too young to remember the outcome, but what I do remember was a Marine in uniform was all jacked up trying to speak to the committee.