https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/meet-store-owner-shot-five-gang-members/

Good points about why we shouldn't give in.
It's about principles.
The victim is at the mercy of the criminal - it should NEVER be that way in our free society.

In Hawaii you are expected to give everything you got to anyone who wants to rob you because if you hurt or kill them,
you are the one who will spend at least one night in jail.

Our law says u must surender object on demand.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Our law says u must surender object on demand.

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... and pray they don't eliminate all witnesses.   

Our law says u must surender object on demand.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

please quote HRS...

please quote HRS...

Allow me ...

§703-304  Use of force in self-protection.

The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section if:

     (a)  The actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

     (b)  The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

          (i)  The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

         (ii)  A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties, or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape, is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform his duty, effect the arrest, or prevent the escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom the action is directed.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.htm

Allow me ...

§703-304  Use of force in self-protection.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.htm

mahalo
#nofocus

Allow me ...

§703-304  Use of force in self-protection.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.htm

Take a look at the definition of the term, "claim of right."

Also, please see COMMENTARY ON §703-304, which states, in pertinent part:

• The use of deadly force is also denied when the actor can avoid using it with complete safety by retreating, by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right to it, or by complying with a demand that he refrain from taking an action which he has no legal duty to take.  In any of these cases, the Code may seem to be opting for cowardice.  However, it should be the strong principle of any criminal code to prevent death wherever possible.  To quote the Model Penal Code commentary,
  
       It rests, of course, upon the view that protection of life has such a high place in a proper scheme of social values that the law cannot permit conduct which places life in jeopardy, when the necessity for doing so can be avoided by the sacrifice of the much smaller value that inheres in standing up to an aggression.

Further,

• The Code also specifically requires surrendering possession of a thing when the attacker asserts a claim of right thereto.  Where a person offers deadly force unless another surrenders property to him, and claims a right to the property, it is certainly sound policy to save life and litigate the disputed ownership in court.  Naturally, however, this rule does not apply in cases of robbery, where the assailant can make no claim of right, and it is the purpose of the Code to permit deadly resistance to robbery if the conditions of subsection (2) are met.

Our law says u must surender object on demand.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

mahalo
#nofocus

Let’s FOCUS on the soul that breaks into my home. I’m not surrendering anything. Period... You break into my home, you rolled the dice and let them fall where it may. 

Let’s FOCUS on the soul that breaks into my home. I’m not surrendering anything. Period... You break into my home, you rolled the dice and let them fall where it may.

It's how you articulate why you responded with the actions that you did.  Law states you can use "reasonable" force to get your stuff back.  So if he has your TV in his arms.  But if being demanded, then you must surrender.

But if you "believed" your life was in danger, then deadly force is legal.  It's how you word why you used deadly force.  "He broke in and said he wanted some chon chon" vs. "He pulled a knife and said give him my car keys".

Keep your mouth shut until you speak to an attorney.  IIRC, if a FBI agent is involved in a shooting, then they give him 3 days until a statement is made.  Studies showed it takes the brain 3 days to calm down and think clearly and remember everything.  Compared to telling HPD right then and there why you did what you did.

mahalo
#nofocus

#needtowearatinfoilhatnexttime

General reminder to all to please be wary of information that is posted on the internet, particularly as it applies to the interpretation of statutes, rules/regs, or case law.

General reminder to all to please be wary of information that is posted on the internet, particularly as it applies to the interpretation of statutes, rules/regs, or case law.

mahalo NG

General reminder to all to please be wary of information that is posted on the internet, particularly as it applies to the interpretation of statutes, rules/regs, or case law.

Good advice.

When it comes to using lethal force, what's legal is usually the last thing on your mind in that moment.  Laws are supposed to enforce what's ethical and moral.  As some of the quotes you shared mentioned, taking a life -- even in legally justifiable self defense -- should not be your only option unless you believe it is.

I may have mentioned once before that the Air Force required all gun owners to sign a statement of understanding regarding use of lethal force.  It outlined all the ethical, moral and consequential issues.  The intent was to ensure that you acknowledge what use of deadly force could result in:  injury or death of another human being, legal scrutiny, financial ruin (defense attorneys and law suits), etc.

#1 rule -- if you can't imagine yourself ever pulling the trigger knowing you are possibly about to take another person's life, then you should probably not own a gun.  Presenting a gun will often diffuse the situation in your favor, but if the other person sees you are hesitant, you can't trust they will retreat.  Never bring a gun into a situation in which you know you'll be unable to use it should it come down to that.

There are those who believe so deeply in their convictions, that they would rather die than take another life.  That's one extreme.  The other is to believe anyone who threatens you is a lethal threat and justifies use of lethal force.

In reality, most sane, rational people know that all of the scenarios in which you might find yourself feeling threatened are situational.  Your response will vary based on the facts at hand.

Plan for the worst, but hope for the best.  Preparation requires you to learn the laws regarding self defense.  But, the law should not be your primary guide in how to handle every situation.  Let your conscience be your guide.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/12/14/horrifying-holdup-three-armed-masked-men-rob-waianae-mini-mart/

if the conv store owners had a firearm and trained...

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/12/14/horrifying-holdup-three-armed-masked-men-rob-waianae-mini-mart/

if the conv store owners had a firearm and trained...

Three on one?  Not good odds since they also have the element of surprise.

The good news is they had their faces covered.  No reason for them to eliminate potential witnesses.

Not all of us are capable of a "perfect response".  I am buying some of these personal alarms because I have several women/girls I need to feel safer about.  Lemme know what you think I value this boards expertise.:https://trysafepersonalalarm.com/buynowd3/salespage-safe.php?zero=8asti87t43y8iksyth4iuktyh874e5gy5&affId=CB771A3E&power=gsiou7gyf8iwastgf47&c1=us&c2=smartdisplay_po50&win=asda343aew1231231231&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIneGihb2I5gIVgyV_Ch2jIA4REAEYASAAEgJAUPD_BwE

Not all of us are capable of a "perfect response".  I am buying some of these personal alarms because I have several women/girls I need to feel safer about.  Lemme know what you think I value this boards expertise.:https://trysafepersonalalarm.com/buynowd3/salespage-safe.php?zero=8asti87t43y8iksyth4iuktyh874e5gy5&affId=CB771A3E&power=gsiou7gyf8iwastgf47&c1=us&c2=smartdisplay_po50&win=asda343aew1231231231&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIneGihb2I5gIVgyV_Ch2jIA4REAEYASAAEgJAUPD_BwE

...
I bought pepper spray for my daughter.

I go to a jewelry/ watch repair place by my house when I need a battery or a repair or something else. A while ago I went there and noticed the owner is armed with a pistol OWB. I look at it a few seconds and ask the guy, "that's  a kahr?"  He replies, "yes. You know your guns, huh?" We get to talking and hes been robbed at gunpoint twice before getting the pistol. He also has other securities at his store too.
So I guess there are people in hawaii that are armed at their business or property. I bet more are going to be armed in the future

Not all of us are capable of a "perfect response".  I am buying some of these personal alarms because I have several women/girls I need to feel safer about.  Lemme know what you think I value this boards expertise.:https://trysafepersonalalarm.com/buynowd3/salespage-safe.php?zero=8asti87t43y8iksyth4iuktyh874e5gy5&affId=CB771A3E&power=gsiou7gyf8iwastgf47&c1=us&c2=smartdisplay_po50&win=asda343aew1231231231&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIneGihb2I5gIVgyV_Ch2jIA4REAEYASAAEgJAUPD_BwE

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "perfect response," particularly when there are can be so many different factors.

I am DEFINITELY not a subject matter expert, but I wholeheartedly believe in Lt Col Jeff Cooper's philosophy that your mindset is your primary weapon.

In my opinion, possessing and knowing how to use accoutrement/tools is important.

However,  having the ability to proactively recognize and avoid potentially dangerous situations, in the first place, is just as, or maybe even more important.

There will certainly be times when you may not be able to see or avoid all potentially dangerous situations, so that's when the tools come in handy.

... and God forbid, but if you ever have to use those tools, you should absolutely have the training and the resolve to use everything at your disposal to put forth the best possible response, given the situation.

If I could offer a suggestion, LD1, I'd have those women/girls you need to feel safer about read Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense (super easy read, and free if you search online), then help them get stoked about
joining and continuing with some type of formal defensive training from professionals.