Poll

Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown rules to be unconstitutional?

Yes, all of it
51.5%
Some of it
27.3%
No, none of it
18.2%
Undecided
3%
Total Members Voted
33

Voting closed: August 20, 2020, 10:38:16 PM

Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional? (Read 17400 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2020, 12:18:21 PM »
That said, do you think if a Scientist told him "Hey Frank, if you wear a Mask you're far less likely to get Polio..."

I realize he was born with polio, just keeping it light...

Spending your life in a plastic bubble can greatly reduce your risk of all deadly diseases.

There's a line between reasonable preventive measures and paranoia.

That line needs to be based on facts, and the decision made by the individual, not the government via legal mandate.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

eyeeatingfish

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2020, 08:45:51 PM »
That line needs to be based on facts, and the decision made by the individual, not the government via legal mandate.

Where do we draw the line though? Imagine for example that we had an ebola outbreak in Hawaii. Ebola, on the low side, has a case fatality rate of 25% up to 90% on the high side.

Would you be ok with relying on the ebola patients and public to self regulate, wearing masks and quarantining as they wish?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2020, 09:53:13 PM »
Where do we draw the line though? Imagine for example that we had an ebola outbreak in Hawaii. Ebola, on the low side, has a case fatality rate of 25% up to 90% on the high side.

Would you be ok with relying on the ebola patients and public to self regulate, wearing masks and quarantining as they wish?

Ebola has a much higher mortality rate than the regular flu.

COVID-19 has a lower rate.

The line is somewhere between there.  Common sense will guide us.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

ren

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2020, 10:00:42 PM »
Where do we draw the line though? Imagine for example that we had an ebola outbreak in Hawaii. Ebola, on the low side, has a case fatality rate of 25% up to 90% on the high side.

Would you be ok with relying on the ebola patients and public to self regulate, wearing masks and quarantining as they wish?

Is it a crime to be sick?
Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2020, 10:29:22 PM »
Is it a crime to be sick?

It appears to be a crime to be healthy and to not follow the preventive guidelines set down by Big Brother.

Sick until proven not infected .... well .... not even then.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

groveler

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2020, 06:45:24 AM »
Ok, so which rules do you think are unconstitutional and how?
I just noticed I had not answered you last May.
Every law a Democrat has ever passed or supported
is my answer.
I can't drive 55!

eyeeatingfish

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2020, 08:52:19 PM »
Ebola has a much higher mortality rate than the regular flu.

COVID-19 has a lower rate.

The line is somewhere between there.  Common sense will guide us.

Common sense doesn't draw lines very well because your common sense might be different than many others.

Maybe you set it at 1% case fatality rate but your neighbor believes it should be a 5% case fatality rate. Maybe I believe it should be a 10% case fatality rate. So maybe at 5% you think we should be mandated to wear masks but others will still make the argument it is unconstitutional.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2020, 08:53:32 PM »
Is it a crime to be sick?

Being sick is not a crime.

ren

Deeds Not Words

RSN172

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2020, 12:33:18 PM »
I personally do not have a problem wearing a mask as I feel it protects me.  Just as I wear the approriate kind of mask when welding, sanding, spraying etc.  I know many people who don't and I think it is stupid not to.  But it is their health, not mine.

ren

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2020, 01:55:41 PM »
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293953/
An important property of the respiratory protective apparatus is its structure.(3) As previously noted by Wiwanitkit,(3) the pore size of the protective apparatus is the main component that allows or prohibits the passage of pathogen. Since the coronavirus is an extremely small virus, it can pass through the pores of both the surgical mask and N95 respirator. Hence, considering the nanostructure of the protective apparatuses, there should not be any difference in their protective activity. In addition, contamination of the respiratory protective apparatus after use is another issue that needs to be addressed. Although the apparatus has a good structure that can prevent the passage of pathogen, if it is contaminated and reused, it will become the source of infection instead.(4)

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814
The authors pointed to earlier research showing particles 0.04 to 0.2 μm "can penetrate surgical masks." For the coronavirus responsible for SARS, particles were estimated to be within that range at 0.08 to 0.14 μm, they said.

"Assuming that SARS-CoV-2 has a similar size, surgical masks are unlikely to effectively filter this virus," they wrote. "The size and concentrations of SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols generated during coughing are unknown."
Deeds Not Words

groveler

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2020, 02:10:56 PM »
I personally do not have a problem wearing a mask as I feel it protects me.  Just as I wear the approriate kind of mask when welding, sanding, spraying etc.  I know many people who don't and I think it is stupid not to.  But it is their health, not mine.
I favor 3M 6000 series masks and filters for work as you mention.
Newer N95 masks  protect you but nobody else,
I have old style N95 masks without the valve, had them for years,
but it may asphyxiate you if you exert yourself too much.

You know the propose of surgical masks are to keep you from
infecting a patient, not protect you.

But when it comes to these useless masks they force us to wear in public,
I differ from you. They don't work.  They are merely a placebo to make
people feel safe.  That is why I reject mandatory public masks for everyone.
It makes them "feel" safe when they really aren't.

I was always taught in the computer, engineering, and instrumentation world, if you can't
give good data,  don't give any data.
You can cause more damage by people acting on bad data than when they
don't know.  That is why we haven't killed our economy in the past when we have
had other sicknesses that killed significant numbers of people.
That is what we are seeing now. They don't know and they give us bad data.
as they guess. People are acting on bad data and fear. We are failing.

 




robtmc

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2020, 05:45:51 PM »
Sick until proven not infected .... well .... not even then.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2020, 05:56:26 PM »

It's being reported that a business (at least one -- likely many) is requiring their employees sign an affidavit EVERY DAY THEY SHOW UP FOR WORK affirming they do not have any COVID-19 symptoms.

No test, just a signed statement that the symptoms are not present.

We all know there are many who show little to no symptoms, yet are infected carriers capable of spreading the disease.

This is not only a blatant CYA attempt, but it also has little if any chance of stopping the spread. 

If an employee is sick and decides to show up for work, do you think he or she is going to tell the truth on a piece of paper?

Anyone ever hear of such a requirement to go to work as it relates to any other illness?

They'd be better off taking temperatures of employees at the start of their shifts.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

mrgaf

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2020, 08:23:20 PM »
I favor 3M 6000 series masks and filters for work as you mention.
Newer N95 masks  protect you but nobody else,
I have old style N95 masks without the valve, had them for years,
but it may asphyxiate you if you exert yourself too much.

You know the propose of surgical masks are to keep you from
infecting a patient, not protect you.

But when it comes to these useless masks they force us to wear in public,
I differ from you. They don't work.  They are merely a placebo to make
people feel safe.  That is why I reject mandatory public masks for everyone.
It makes them "feel" safe when they really aren't.

I was always taught in the computer, engineering, and instrumentation world, if you can't
give good data,  don't give any data.
You can cause more damage by people acting on bad data than when they
don't know.  That is why we haven't killed our economy in the past when we have
had other sicknesses that killed significant numbers of people.
That is what we are seeing now. They don't know and they give us bad data.
as they guess. People are acting on bad data and fear. We are failing.



Data..... ::)
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

6716J

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2020, 06:28:36 PM »
The data is now a couple days old but the math still works

1416000 POPULATION OF HAWAII

5192 POSITIVE COVID CASES IN HAWAII

39 COVID RELATED DEATHS

0.367% % OF COVID CASES/POPULATION

0.751% % OF COVID DEATHS/CASES

0.00275% % OF COVID DEATHS/POPULATION

So in the State of Hawaii, less that 0.5% of the population has contracted it. Of those contracting it, less than 1% have died (and I don't want anyone dying). AND less than 3 Hundredths of a percent have died in relation to the population of the state. So yes by all means, lets cripple the states economy and crush everyone living in Hawaii.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2020, 08:23:18 PM »
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293953/
An important property of the respiratory protective apparatus is its structure.(3) As previously noted by Wiwanitkit,(3) the pore size of the protective apparatus is the main component that allows or prohibits the passage of pathogen. Since the coronavirus is an extremely small virus, it can pass through the pores of both the surgical mask and N95 respirator. Hence, considering the nanostructure of the protective apparatuses, there should not be any difference in their protective activity. In addition, contamination of the respiratory protective apparatus after use is another issue that needs to be addressed. Although the apparatus has a good structure that can prevent the passage of pathogen, if it is contaminated and reused, it will become the source of infection instead.(4)

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814
The authors pointed to earlier research showing particles 0.04 to 0.2 μm "can penetrate surgical masks." For the coronavirus responsible for SARS, particles were estimated to be within that range at 0.08 to 0.14 μm, they said.

"Assuming that SARS-CoV-2 has a similar size, surgical masks are unlikely to effectively filter this virus," they wrote. "The size and concentrations of SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols generated during coughing are unknown."


Capturing and filtering out the virus is not the point of the mask requirements though. The point of the masks in this case are to mitigate the small water droplets we expell because those droplets are what carries the virus. There have been multiple studies comparing various types of masks and even ones with just 2 layers of cotton t-shirt material did quite well at reducing both the quantity of water droplets as well as the distance the droplets spread.

https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-test-best-fabric-choices-for-making-a-homemade-covid-mask/?fbclid=IwAR3B-82DKTqxBc79U_zoVkzmuHJPgY1R2zaSwaviEfP-UMxInpxNUHbxaRM

ren

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2020, 08:26:14 PM »
Capturing and filtering out the virus is not the point of the mask requirements though. The point of the masks in this case are to mitigate the small water droplets we expell because those droplets are what carries the virus. There have been multiple studies comparing various types of masks and even ones with just 2 layers of cotton t-shirt material did quite well at reducing both the quantity of water droplets as well as the distance the droplets spread.

I really appreciate your explanation because they are so thoughtful and wholly insightful.
Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2020, 08:28:12 PM »
The data is now a couple days old but the math still works

1416000 POPULATION OF HAWAII

5192 POSITIVE COVID CASES IN HAWAII

39 COVID RELATED DEATHS

0.367% % OF COVID CASES/POPULATION

0.751% % OF COVID DEATHS/CASES

0.00275% % OF COVID DEATHS/POPULATION

So in the State of Hawaii, less that 0.5% of the population has contracted it. Of those contracting it, less than 1% have died (and I don't want anyone dying). AND less than 3 Hundredths of a percent have died in relation to the population of the state. So yes by all means, lets cripple the states economy and crush everyone living in Hawaii.

I think the question that really matters in evaluating whether the damage of closing the economy was worth it or not is to compare the case fatality rate we have against what the case fatality rate would be if we did nothing special.

That is of course ignoring potential long lasting medical affects as well as the fact that even if nothing was shutdown we would still probably see significant economic damage from the virus anyway, For example look at the meat processing plants that couldn't function because there were too many people sick. It disrupted a lot of the industry.

groveler

Re: Do you believe the quarantine and lockdown to be unconstitutional?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2020, 08:30:23 PM »
Capturing and filtering out the virus is not the point of the mask requirements though. The point of the masks in this case are to mitigate the small water droplets we expell because those droplets are what carries the virus. There have been multiple studies comparing various types of masks and even ones with just 2 layers of cotton t-shirt material did quite well at reducing both the quantity of water droplets as well as the distance the droplets spread.

https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-test-best-fabric-choices-for-making-a-homemade-covid-mask/?fbclid=IwAR3B-82DKTqxBc79U_zoVkzmuHJPgY1R2zaSwaviEfP-UMxInpxNUHbxaRM
The whole point of masks is they have control.
If you cannot see that then you are not as smart as
I think you are.
You descend to being cleaver,