Ghost gun bill passes (Read 14232 times)

robtmc

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2020, 09:22:29 AM »
What if you bought a chunk of plastic to use as a paperweight or design as an art piece with no intention to manufacture it as a firearm?
Any diddling by me would quickly turn such into a paperweight.   I am one of those that can ruin an anvil.

changemyoil66

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2020, 09:33:28 AM »
Here's something to think about.  How many people here are asking for clarification or going to complain but didn't submit testimony or show up to the hearings when the bill was making it's way thru.

So lesson learned if none of the above was done, PARTICIPATE.  I don't own any P80s nor have the craftsmanship and tools to even create one.  So this bills intent didn't apply to me at all.  But I was there fighting as best as we can to stop the bill. 

We got lucky on the bill that does apply to most people here, the mag ban. 

rpoL98

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2020, 10:18:09 AM »
Here's something to think about.  How many people here are asking for clarification or going to complain but didn't submit testimony or show up to the hearings when the bill was making it's way thru.

So lesson learned if none of the above was done, PARTICIPATE.  I don't own any P80s nor have the craftsmanship and tools to even create one.  So this bills intent didn't apply to me at all.  But I was there fighting as best as we can to stop the bill. 

We got lucky on the bill that does apply to most people here, the mag ban.
and some would also say, earlier year, we got "lucky", it was only bump stocks and pull-release triggers.

Every year, we gonna be "lucky" until it's only 2-barrel shotguns, 6-shot revolvers, and lever-action rifles.

when does the "greater" Hawaii 2A community wake up and smell the coffee?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2020, 10:39:13 AM »
What if you bought a chunk of plastic to use as a paperweight or design as an art piece with no intention to manufacture it as a firearm?

If the chunk of plastic is already milled to an 80% receiver/frame, and it was sold as an 80% blank, it probably cost more than any unmilled chunk.  If you paid $100-$200 for a plastic paperweight, you might not be competent enough to own guns!   :rofl:

You can also buy a Glock "with the intent" to use it as a paperweight, but that doesn't transform the gun into a non-firearm.

I think the state is overreaching by ignoring the ATF guidance on 80% receivers.  They are NOT firearms, but HI wants to regulate them as if they are.  Yes, the intent for buying these is potentially to create a firearm, but until that happens, it remains a non-firearm part that requires milling to function as a receiver or frame.

I guess since HI can make NFA items illegal even though the feds allow them, HI can ban whatever they want.  I'm sure they would ban all private firearms if they didn't have those pesky Constitutions protecting our rights.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

6716J

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2020, 05:13:20 PM »
Another interpretation can be that you can still purchase them freely at any gun store or via the internet. The key to all of this is sentence 2:

"§134-    Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty.  (a)  A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm, purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:

     (1)  A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;

    (2)  A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or

     (3)  Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled."

...meaning, if you put a serial number on the piece of plastic/metal FIRST before you begin any milling or drilling, you are in compliance with the law as written.

And while they have attempted to define a firearm receiver..."Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means." they have never defined the term readily. And that has been asked for eons and as for intent, if I go into Home Depot and purchase a 10x12 piece of 12 gauge sheet metal with the INTENT to make an AK rifle out of it, can HD sell it to me? A piece of steel tube to make a STEN. They aren't an FFL , but are selling firearm parts.

Poorly written laws have unintended consequences
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2020, 08:23:52 PM »
A 01 is different than an 07

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by this.

Tacozfail

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2020, 08:29:07 PM »
Sorry, I don't know what you mean by this.
I think he was referring to the license types for FFLs.

Type 01 FFL is a dealer of firearms or gunsmith

Type 07 is a manufacturer of firearms.

When you apply you have to select what type you are trying to be.

If I want to manufacture ammunition I have to apply for a type 06. 

eyeeatingfish

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2020, 08:39:21 PM »
I think he was referring to the license types for FFLs.

Type 01 FFL is a dealer of firearms or gunsmith

Type 07 is a manufacturer of firearms.

When you apply you have to select what type you are trying to be.

If I want to manufacture ammunition I have to apply for a type 06.

Oh, gotcha. I guess the HRS section didn't cover that.

macsak

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2020, 09:02:28 PM »

aieahound

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2020, 05:22:48 PM »
Anybody other than the Engilsh teacher got thoughts on this ?

 Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
If It’s gotta be explained in those grammatical terms, sure seems like the law is unreasonably vague and ambiguous and unenforceable regarding grandfathering.

And, still, where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?

And what about engraving the registration number on it before you register it? Is that possible?

drck1000

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2020, 05:28:42 PM »
Anybody other than the Engilsh teacher got thoughts on this ?

 Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
If It’s gotta be explained in those grammatical terms, sure seems like the law is unreasonably vague and ambiguous and unenforceable regarding grandfathering.

And, still, where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?

And what about engraving the registration number on it before you register it? Is that possible?
You ever read majority of gun bills and laws, in general? 

robtmc

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2020, 06:11:00 PM »
Luckily, if there is an upper receiver buying spike ahead of this law being ignored, it will be limited to Hawaii.

No one here plans on doing a thing against the democrat master's wishes.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2020, 06:19:48 PM »
Luckily, if there is an upper receiver buying spike ahead of this law being ignored, it will be limited to Hawaii.

No one here plans on doing a thing against the democrat master's wishes.

I can see people traveling to the mainland and coming back to Hawaii with a few "souvenirs" they bought legally without serial numbers.  Since they are legal federally, the TSA would have no reason to see them as contraband leaving the state where they were purchased.

As usual, this is another unenforceable law unless (1) someone turns you in, or (2) you happen to be subject to a search warrant for something else, and the Cops discover the "paper weights".

I wonder, if you add a serial number to the blanks you're storing but don't get them registered, they can't get you on ghost gun charges, right?  Just a misdemeanor for an unregistered non-firearm.
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

6716J

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2020, 09:53:30 AM »
I can see people traveling to the mainland and coming back to Hawaii with a few "souvenirs" they bought legally without serial numbers.  Since they are legal federally, the TSA would have no reason to see them as contraband leaving the state where they were purchased.

As usual, this is another unenforceable law unless (1) someone turns you in, or (2) you happen to be subject to a search warrant for something else, and the Cops discover the "paper weights".

I wonder, if you add a serial number to the blanks you're storing but don't get them registered, they can't get you on ghost gun charges, right?  Just a misdemeanor for an unregistered non-firearm.

Would be an interesting court battle. Argument would be, it is not a firearm as defined.. When they go bu, bu, but the law says this, whip out the piece of 16 GA steel and say that's a firearm too by the states definition. Or the piece of pipe or the shovel... Unless it has been manufactured as a firearm, it isn't. Is airsoft stuff, what about BB guns? Both of those use air or spring power to propel a projectile. A piece of plastic without the ability to "shoot" anything is not a firearm.

You're either pregnant or you aren't.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

aieahound

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2020, 01:14:46 PM »
Good point.
How do you prove intent?
Is it the manufacturers intent or the possessors?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 04:56:15 PM by aieahound »

6716J

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2020, 04:14:58 PM »
Another interpretation can be that you can still purchase them freely at any gun store or via the internet. The key to all of this is sentence 2:

"§134-    Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty.  (a)  A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm (what if I don't intend to assemble a firearm in Hawaii?), purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:

     (1)  A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;

    (2)  A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or

     (3)  Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled."

...meaning, if you put a serial number on the piece of plastic/metal FIRST before you begin any milling or drilling, you are in compliance with the law as written.

And while they have attempted to define a firearm receiver..."Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means." they have never defined the term readily. And that has been asked for eons and as for intent, if I go into Home Depot and purchase a 10x12 piece of 12 gauge sheet metal with the INTENT to make an AK rifle out of it, can HD sell it to me? A piece of steel tube to make a STEN. They aren't an FFL , but are selling firearm parts.

Poorly written laws have unintended consequences

unless I am wrong (and I've been known to be, ask my wife), you still DO NOT NEED a permit to acquire an 80% . It only states it must have a MFRs serial number (no. 1), or provided a serial number that CAN BE, not SHALL BE registered (no. 2) and it DOES NOT state who issues the serial number.

Again...poorly written laws. Words have meaning.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2020, 06:52:02 PM »
unless I am wrong (and I've been known to be, ask my wife), you still DO NOT NEED a permit to acquire an 80% . It only states it must have a MFRs serial number (no. 1), or provided a serial number that CAN BE, not SHALL BE registered (no. 2) and it DOES NOT state who issues the serial number.

Again...poorly written laws. Words have meaning.

Quote
If the firearm has no serial number, the registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number,
and the registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration.

That's a change from before, where the statute said to use the permit to acquire number as the serial number.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM

The manufacturers and some retailers offer the option to include a serial number of your choice on 80% blanks. 

I've read that some states require that the serial number on polymer frames and receivers be engraved on a metal plate affixed to it, I guess like they do on Glocks.  The Sig P320 has a "window" where the modular insert's engraved serial shows through.

Makes sense, because a number on the softer plastic could be "accidentally" altered or obliterated.



« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 06:57:36 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
"How can you diagnose someone with an obsessive-compulsive disorder
and then act as though I had some choice about barging in?"
-- Melvin Udall

changemyoil66

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2020, 09:15:13 AM »
unless I am wrong (and I've been known to be, ask my wife), you still DO NOT NEED a permit to acquire an 80% . It only states it must have a MFRs serial number (no. 1), or provided a serial number that CAN BE, not SHALL BE registered (no. 2) and it DOES NOT state who issues the serial number.

Again...poorly written laws. Words have meaning.

HPD does what they want.  I've know a guy who's had to have an active long gun permit to acquire in order to register his completed P80.  So he showed up to reg and was told no.  He applied for long gun permit and came back 2 weeks later.  At the same time he picked up his permit, he was able to register his P80.  Makes sense right.

Heavies

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2020, 05:12:16 PM »
Riddle me this.  How are you supposed to engrave the registration number when you can't register the non gun with no engraved number? 

6716J

Re: Ghost gun bill passes
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2020, 05:45:57 PM »
Meanwhile Downtown

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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.