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Messages - Surf

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941
General Discussion / Re: Shooting range in Waipio?
« on: July 17, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »
North leeward. Dont want to release too much info. Keeping the neighbors at bay.   :geekdanc:

Sounds good!  Heaven knows the local shooting community needs more range alternatives!
942
General Discussion / Re: Ridiculously overpriced guns.
« on: July 17, 2012, 05:53:02 PM »
Overpriced?   Just check the classifieds here from time to time.  ;D
943
Ah yes, the good ole mauka showers in the Mt View / Puna area.  Benny and his buddy Isaiah sent me this video and those two fellas seem pretty darn squared away guys and pure enthusiasts.  I hope to get to meet them and do some shooting with them maybe on the Big Isle.  Isaiah is gonna ship out to join the Navy in an attempt to become a super ninja so good luck to him!  I am looking forward to possibly checking out this range someday and my parents live in Mt. View and are shooters also, so they are interested.  Great job over there!
944
Legal and Activism / Re: Happened tonight.
« on: July 04, 2012, 07:11:11 AM »
* The following is a hypothetical scenario and is for discussion purposes only.  This is not legal advice or a suggested course of action to any type of incident. * 

As eluded to above you have the right to attempt to stop the vicious dogs actions.  If at any time you feel that you or another is in jeopardy of serious bodily injury or death, you may act accordingly.  You would want to ensure that you do not fire errant shots that could fall into the Reckless Endangering section.  It would also take a persistent investigator, then need a pretty hard core prosecutor to even wish to accept such a case of Reckless Endangering, much less prosecute one if it resulted from an individual fighting for their life against a vicious animal.  Of course never say never and the perfect storm can happen, but in this type of incident I cannot recall such a case off the top of my head.
945
General Discussion / Re: Has anyone taken NRA Shooting classes?
« on: June 28, 2012, 08:40:32 PM »
I also add that just because someone has "been there" and "done that," Doesn't mean that they possess the ability to teach. Some of the most sought out instructors in the country spent little time in combat or operations.

Having an ability to present information so that another may understand it is completely different from just knowing what you are doing.

I agree 100% and I hope at least that as far as my post goes that I didn't imply otherwise.  Please don't get me wrong as I support the NRA and am a Life member myself.  I am simply saying that the NRA instructor courses (yellow card) are some of the most basic courses available at an instructor level, therefore they do produce many many instructors who are not really adept at teaching but can pass a very simplistic course and gain the NRA instructor title.  Another thing is that Hawaii in essence has given the NRA instructors a bit of a greater status because they are what is recognized in order to obtain a firearm.  As for NRA instructors they are definitely not a negative and the NRA is the most recognized name in instructing for civilians and in LE but I do consider NRA certifications as some of the more basic instructor level certifications available from recognized sources.  NRA certs do have some good merit and I hold quite a few of them from the yellow card and blue card side of instructing and for myself I do consider them to be the more basic of what I possess, but the main thing is that just because someone holds an NRA cert does not necessarily mean you are getting a high quality instructor and instruction.  The fundamentals and safety is sound so that is a good thing, but they are still far behind the curve.  On the other side of things, there are many high quality instructors who also happen to hold NRA certs so I don't discount anyone based on that.  Teaching is a gift, no matter if you are a civilian or if you are a BTDT type.  Some of the best names that I have trained with, or under have zero experience on a two way range and I have no issues there.  As for teaching in general, if you cannot effectively relay your message or make people want to learn from you, it really doesn't matter how broad of a knowledge base you have or how great of a shooter that you actually are.

Again I applaud the efforts put forth here in Hawaii as this is a difficult place to operate, but because of this, the shooting public in general is missing out on quite a bit.  Anyone who has experience on shooting friendly states with training etc, will very much understand this.  Unfortunately many people here in Hawaii only have a frame of reference of what they have experienced here in Hawaii, which is very limited and many don't understand what the potential could be for training opportunities if the situation here in Hawaii would allow for it.  While I may not agree 100% on all the details of how you might fight your cause, I do support your overall efforts and your end goals and I even had my son drop a few dollars in your jar at the last gun show.   :) 
946
Firearms and Accessories / Re: What Are You Doing To Your Glock?
« on: June 27, 2012, 09:30:19 PM »
got pics of your mods? are you the guy on youtube? just wondering :shaka:

Oddly enough, my Glocks are set up just like this one guy on youtube.   :)

947
General Discussion / Re: Has anyone taken NRA Shooting classes?
« on: June 27, 2012, 09:19:02 PM »
As mentioned NRA instructor certifications, especially the yellow cards, are not that hard to come by and quality instruction can vary greatly from instructor to instructor.  Even the blue card instructors can have some good variance.  So in essence, just because someone is an NRA instructor can have little meaning. 

I do completely support and applaud anyone supporting the shooting efforts in Hawaii!  However it really is too bad that the range situation here in the islands is what it is.  If not for the restrictive nature here, there is much that could actually be offered to the general shooting community that it would completely re-educate them about what is possible in regards to what firearms training opportunities are all about.  It would open the doors and quickly define the difference in quality of instruction / instructors.
948
Firearms and Accessories / Re: OD Spray paint?
« on: June 26, 2012, 06:57:04 PM »
I like to use the Krylon Camo paints as they are a part of their Fusion paint line up.  I have done several coating types but I still prefer simple krylon.  I like the worn in look and the finish is easy to touch up. 

Since someone mentioned shotguns and camo, here is an example of the Krylon OD and black.  This is what the finish looks like when it is left flat.



Here is the final camo job with a matte clear coat added.  The clear coat even though flat or matte still deepens the color.

949
Firearms and Accessories / Re: What Are You Doing To Your Glock?
« on: June 26, 2012, 06:46:40 PM »
Sights, 3.5 (-) connector, standard spring, extended slide stop, polish job, is pretty standard for my Glocks.  Stippling, shaving and re-contour trigger guard, finger groove delete, rear hump removal would be more unusual but I do that at times also.

I will note that I have no big issue with a standard 5.5 but I do want the sight, extended slide stop and polish job.
950
General Discussion / Re: HPD Registration
« on: June 26, 2012, 06:41:37 PM »
Was registering on Fri.  Picked up permit only 2 people in line.  Came back to register pistol, 1 person in line and no one after that for about 15 mins.
951
General Discussion / Re: Rain?
« on: March 07, 2012, 06:13:00 AM »
The pistol side is dry under the cover but the pistol range is an absolute mess.  The rifle side is wet on almost all shooting stations because of the holes in the roof or the wind driven rain.  Prepare to get wet.  If it rains hard, very wet.  There were times that I would not want to cross the flow of water cutting off the downrange target area from the shooting benches even with boots as it was that bad.  If the rain stops the river gets to manageable levels.  Paper targets, forget about it.  By the time you get back from setting them up until the fire command, your targets will be toast.  The range is reserved today and tomorrow (Wed & Thur) in the AM until 11:30 so there is no range set up prior to that on the rifle range from the RSO booth headed down to the pistol side half of the rifle range.  Mike also related that on Thur another group is there in the AM also. 

I am a hardcore shooter, but sometimes there are better things to do with your time.   :)
952
General Discussion / Re: Rain?
« on: March 06, 2012, 09:19:06 PM »
Better bring your boots (hip high boots preferably).  Rifle side also has a nice river flowing right through it. 

3-6-2012
953
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It is not negative to point out the truth. HPD and other LE agengies DO get to use the range and DO get to disregard the rules that the general public must adhere to. Do LEOs get to use human targets? Yes. Do they get to do "holster presentations?" Yes. Do they get to use the range when it's "closed?" Yes. Does anyone from the public get to do this? Nope.
They are not disregarding any rules.  They follow the rules that apply to their training needs.  The City as the employer has a duty to train many things.  Failure to do so would fall under deliberate indifference and we would all be paying out of our pockets.  Not only the City derives a direct benefit, but so do you and I and all tax payers.  I understand what you are attempting to say and I agree that the rules are different for LE and for the general shooting public.  If you want to look at it from the City side of things as a Civil Suit issue, failure to train LE can cost them money.  Allowing drawing from the holster, etc, etc, from the public can cost them money.  So yes, LE is not restricted by the all the same rules that the City imposes on the public shooters. Again, I am not saying that I agree with all the rules that exist.

As for shooting after hours, clubs have done night shoots, after normal park hours.  Again some people are their own worst enemies. 

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I never said you did...it was a word of my choosing. I disagree with your assertion that it is not a lack of planning. Let me ask you how much the academy range was supposed to cost and when was it supposed to open? I will let you research the issue but suffice it to say that it went WAY over budget and was opened far later than planned.
I have no need to research the issue.  I understand it far too well.  Disagree all you like but there is a lot more to it than you make it sound.  Suffice it to say it was not a lack of planning on behalf of the HPD.  You might want to research and have a better understanding of how the City works, especially with approval of funding and the entire process works for getting anything done.  Not to mention the bid process and who wins them.  Pick the lowest bidder and you might just get what you pay for.  Your assertion is far more than a bit simplified. 

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And, the point you make that the range is closed when HPD uses it (even if you cite lack of funding as the cause) is exactly what we are talking about. Why can't a club or organization that agrees to use a RSO or adhere to a reasonable and objective safety standard, use the range during "off" hours just like HPD? I am sure the presence of armed, law-abiding citizens would have much the same deterrent affect as you suggest the presence of HPD does.
As I mentioned earlier clubs have been approved to use range time after hours.  If they are having a difficult time getting range space now after hours, maybe we need to look at the reasons for this.  FWIW when HPD uses the range after hours, the time frame is the same as placed on the clubs.  I will say 99.9% that you won't hear a shot fired by an official HPD training event after 2000 hours.  Lets just say that the Hawaii Kai community will be on the phone at 2001 hours if this happens.  They also have a lot of pull.   

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When I have to clean up the bay after anyone else uses it, I don't normally complain either...I just do it. But the point, again, is that if the general public were to treat the ranges in the same fashion as HPD, or any of the other LE agencies do, they would not be "invited" back. Yet LE agencies keep getting to use the range. It is, again, an obvious case of disparate treatment. One where the "public" is subject to much more strict rules and significantly harsher punishment than LE in the same situation.
Sorry but I will have to disagree with you when it comes to the HPD.  I am not speaking about the other LE agencies etc, who use the range.  I will say that the HPD only fires brass cased ammo.  That rarely lasts overnight and there are many people like Teichi who appreciates that.  I am sure he can tell you that he is not alone.  Rarely will this once fired brass last overnight.  Again I will say that there are some very thankful people on the rifle side who find boxes of policed up brass sitting on the benches (again only speaking about the HPD).  I rarely see the type of mess left on the lower ranges that I will find on a Monday.   

   
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I think you miss the point here. He was not trying to say HPD officers are less likely to be given harsher sentences when convicted. He was saying that in the course of doing their duties, an officer that has an otherwise "good" shoot but has the misfortune of injuring or killing an innocent bystander, or shooting the "wrong" person, is provided a level of immunity from civil and criminal prosecution that a citizen, in the same situation would not be afforded. As for the summary ROPA of any officer accused of impropriety, I happen to think it is wrong. But, what I do find interesting is that one of the big complaints of officers so relieved of their police authority, is that they can no longer carry their firearm off-duty. After all, if relying on the police to protect you is good enough for the mere citizens of this state, why are police officers so upset about having to do so as well?
When good people have to go after bad people, there are times when bad things happen.  This really really sucks for everyone involved but it is reality.  However attempting to mitigate the possibilities of this happening is why the HPD has a legal and moral obligation to train their Officers, which ties into what was discussed above about why the HPD is afforded the ability to train.  We can cry all we want about allowing the public to have the ability to do more in their training, of which I agree and am a proponent, but coming off like HPD is violating some type of rules is silly.  They are following the rules set forth upon them. 

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Again, I think you miss the point...if HPD is required to have an RSO and medic in order to use our public range duing the times "we" cannot, then why can't a club or organization that meets these requirements use the range in similar fashion and during those same off-times. I know that when I am at one of our shoots, we have an RSO and medic present. And, at least to the best of my knowledge, I do not think HPD has any TEMS trained medics routinely deployed. I know a couple of the officers are former medics, and that EMS has been training some of the officers is more advanced first aid, but it's not TEMS....
I never said the HPD is required to have a Medic on site during training.  I stated that certain units may have their own medics.  In brief on the TEMS topic, there are a lot more of them than you are obviously aware of.  Also there are HPD units who have EMT qualified personnel.  Not just former medics, but those who achieved EMT certifications after joining the HPD.  There are also a handful who have gone through Military combat medic courses which are more advanced than EMT courses. 

Where did I ever say that I am against public groups using range space during off hours?  I am NOT against it.  Suggesting anything otherwise is pure ignorance. 

It would be of more benefit to refrain from wording my posts to suit certain arguments / agenda's.  I am not against this community and many posts, including yours really are not helping the issues discussed here.  I am a very reasonable person, but I am under no obligation to help clarify anything.  Quite frankly, there is so much flat out incorrect information on SOP / MOP of the HPD that is discussed in many threads here.  I would think that correct information and certain other opinions would be an asset to the issues discussed here?

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Look, the bottom line is that neither I, nor anyone (at least as far as I can tell...) expressing concern over this issue have any "distain" for the police. And, furthermore most would be happy to share the range with HPD and other LE agencies if it could do so under the same rules for using it. So it's not cop bashing to suggest that they (the LE community) have to play by the same rules as everyone else and that the public be given at least the same opportunities to use the only public range as they are. No more, NO LESS
I never suggested "distain" for the police.  As you mentioned you did as it was your choice of words.  If anyone wants to go crying to the City that the public should be allowed to shoot and or train in similar ways as does the HPD, they will not get very far.  I already gave reasons for the City's rebuttal.  Simple reasons that the courts mandate certain training to avoid failure to train and deliberate indifference of patently obvious needs for training placed upon all LE.  This need has not be set for the public and the City ears would be closed.  We may not like or agree with the argument, but any law school student could tell you that the City has a good reason to shoot any proposals down and no one, not even the City council would vote otherwise.  This is a liberal state and coming from that angle is setting ones self up for instant failure. 

Again I support the issues discussed.
954
I will preface this post by saying that we are often our own worst enemies.  Public shooters and LE included.  You will find very good people in either group, or you will find some that think they know it all, been there done that, been in a position for years and are quite comfortable with status quo, or don't like having their little "piece of the pie" messed with.  I think that is easily seen amongst various shooting groups, gun shops, clubs, or shooting cliques.  Again this does not exclude LE.  There is a lot that some people in LE and Military can offer to the public shooting scene, but traditionally there has been a bit of a disconnect between the two, even with those who would actually like to offer support, teaching, training, etc but shy away for various reasons. 

You got me wrong.  The negativity is not with the HPD. I wish they would practice more, if they could. 
"Yep, and it is a known fact that the police and other agencies use our public facilities in any way they please, not following any of the stringent rules the general public must adhere to."

Sorry, I know much often gets left out of the written word on a screen with the lack of inflection of speech, but I would think it is not difficult to see how this statement is easily seen as a negative.

I have to agree with Techi and Heavies. It is not a distain for HPD. It is for a system that allows officers with a viable venue to shoot to use the only available public range to the detriment of the public's use of said range. If the range at the academy isn't sufficient to meet the needs of the police, then that is their administration's fault and the shooting public should not get the short end of the proverbial stick because of poor planning by the police department. A secondary issue is that HPD is allowed to train in a manner that none of the public are allowed to do, such as holster draws, rapid follow up shots, or shooting at something besides that ridiculous 25 yards for handguns. And that does not take into account the ability to use the range during the week when no one else can, even if they try to sign up for it.

And, as someone who frequently uses the range after HPD does, I can tell you that they are not very responsible in cleaning up after themselves....if one of the "clubs" using the action bays were to leave it in such a sorry state, they'd have their privileges yanked.
I never used the word disdain, but the comment very much comes across as negative.  Now there are other threads or replies in other threads around here that I would classify as disdain.

I would hope that there would be a better understanding of how things might work with the City and the HPD.  It isn't a lack of planning or attempt to build on behalf of the HPD but rather an issue of funding approvals from the City and budgets.  The master plan for the Waipahu academy included many things and were on the books since the late 80's.  Look how long it took to get the funds to build the first phase or the indoor range.  It isn't because HPD hasn't asked for the funding every single year for the past 20 years.  Don't think that the HPD wouldn't like to be self sufficient with its own ranges as they would.  It isn't the fault of the HPD.  We should also remember that even if LE or any agencies didn't use the lower combat, or action bays, the City couldn't pay for the employees to staff and maintain running it.  Heck the City can't even keep normal hours of business.  The City also wins by having the HPD presence and training on days that the park is closed to the public by monitoring and running the facility, even chasing people off the silhouette range on off hours.

No excuses made, but there are many who appreciate the leftover once fired, Federal brass.  I rarely see it last overnight.  You might often find it located in places neatly in boxes left on benches even.  I cannot even begin to count how many times, on my own, that I have hauled shot up pallets, target frames and other misc stuff to the dumpsters on a Monday.  I don't like it, but don't complain either.  We also need to remember that there are also many other agencies using the ranges.

I do not disagree with what the public wishes to do in regards to shooting and being able to practice and hone skills.  Your barking up the wrong tree with me.  Your talking to a shooter and a huge proponent of the issues discussed.  I don't disagree with the needs that you are talking about. 

I don't know what standards you think you are comparing HPD to, but I think your quite wrong Surf.  I've just had close friend go through the Academy, and know about how much "firearms" training they get. With the exception of HRT, standard officers are not required to train enough.  Some who enjoy firearms train on their own, but many times they are out alone at kokohead.  Furthemore, the City, like almost all government agencies including the Marines and the Army, have significantly cut back their firearms training because of money.
I was talking about the way in which they run the range logistically speaking.  The number of RSO's / instructors per student etc...not really about the type of training.  But since you mention the training aspect I will say that the HPD is highly regarded in LE in general being only 1 of the 3 CALEA Tri Arc accredited agencies in the Nation.  The HPD Academy is considered to be one of the tops in the country.  As an example the largest LE organizational body is POST.  Most POST academies are around 5 weeks.  The HPD conducts 6 months of academy training.  The amount of training hours obtained is staggering in comparison to POST or the majority of LE nationwide.  There is a huge reason that other departments nationwide try heavily to recruit HPD Officers and give laterals.  While HPD requires that ALL people even current LE, to go through the entire HPD academy.

I will be the first to state that more incumbent Officers need to shoot more often.  That is a combination of budget, logistics and honestly lack of personal initiative.  However I know the exact curriculum and training hours for a new recruit.  While it might not bolster your confidence in LE in general, the HPD recruits obtain far more training hours than the majority of LE agencies nationwide.  Most don't even come close.  Most who come out of the academy are actually shooting very well.  There are no issues with washing out a recruit for firearms and it happens often enough.  The issue over time generally becomes a combination of what I mentioned above because shooting is a perishable skill.  90% of LE are not "gun people".  It is looked at like a tool.  In reality the pen gets far more use.  I am not agreeing with this mentality, just acknowledging reality.

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All said - the issue is not with HPD, it is with double standards.  Citizens should be allowed to train just like any other law enforcement agency.  We have the same responsibilities when discharging a firearm as they do.  The exception is, when an officer accidentally kills someone in the line of duty nothing happens.  When a citizen accidentally kills someone because of a bad shot, they go to court to face possible criminal and or civil penalties. That is just the reality of civil immunity that many government agents enjoy.
I very much disagree here.  The HPD goes after its own with far more commitment of resources and voracity than they would with the general public for a similar incident.  The local Feds and the Prosecutors do exactly the same.  Traditionally a convicted LE Officer will get a far stiffer penalty than the the average person.  I am not disagreeing with this as LE should be held to a higher standard, but to think anything otherwise is very much incorrect.  Give your friend some time with the HPD and he will quickly tell you the same.  On any investigation, you are guilty on mere allegation, until proven otherwise.  Officers are more often than not, put on ROPA (relieved of police authority), for mere allegations.

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The other problem is that if there are no safety issues with the police department using the range outside of normal public hours, why shouldn't the public be able to use it under the same circumstances.  (I.e., permits etc.)
What safety issues?  Perhaps I can help clarify something?  Public shooting organizations have night shoots?  I know there might be issues as of late, but there is more to that story.  Again, some groups can be their own worst enemies.  The HPD has their own RSO's / instructors and certain units have their own medics (TEMS and EMT) on site at training.  The HPD is responsible for the entire complex, including upper ranges on Mon and Tue all day.  And are responsible for the upper ranges in the AM hours M-F and are responsible for the lower ranges M-F and of course like any other park, during any hours of night or day.  This is a benefit to the City and the HPD.  We must also understand that the City has quite a bit of liability and insurance issues to think about.  Yes I understand how waiver's work, but this is a City property and your dealing with a City that is very liberal in nature. 
955
A public range on West Oahu is a great idea and not something new to discussion, however the timing for the former Barbers Pt location and its transition from the Navy to the C&C is great timing and is the best chance of success in these economic times.  I would also strongly suggest that everyone press Councilman Berg to remove the "environmentally friendly" verbiage from the proposal, I know I will.

Here is one thing, the police and other agencies will use the range.  They are not going to use non-lead ammo; this is why they can't afford to shoot at their OWN range in Waipahu!
Your statements about the Waipahu indoor facility is not correct.  It is in full use every weekday.  However the logic that you mention in regards to the HPD is a good way to impress upon Councilman Berg that there is a legitimate need to remove such verbiage.  In other words the "implied benefit" of frangible or lead free ammo, is not a worthwhile trade off for practical and economic reasons.  No one would even think twice if that wording wasn't there.  Now if he includes it, he puts ideas into peoples heads and then it will be too late.

Here is one thing, the police and other agencies will use the range.  They are not going to use non-lead ammo; this is why they can't afford to shoot at their OWN range in Waipahu!

Yep, and it is a known fact that the police and other agencies use our public facilities in any way they please, not following any of the stringent rules the general public must adhere to.

I am going to try to contact Berg today and solicit an answer.  I let everyone know what his comments are.
I am not sure why there is any negativity towards the HPD usage of the City and County Koko Head facility?  They are following "best practice" principles that any major metro PD would follow for range use and LE training.  In reality the HPD training exceeds most others standards in how a facility is utilized by a LE agency.  The City must provide training and are mandated by the courts to provide varying types of training and again Koko Head is City owned.  I would love to see public facilities that would allow more options for the general shooting community, but being negative toward the HPD for doing what they are supposed to be doing seems a bit misguided to me.  It also seems to be overlooked that there are many within the HPD that are supportive of the issues discussed on this site.  However quickly reading threads around here does little to get the support of those individuals who might actually make great proponents in favor of these issues.   
956
General Discussion / Re: people shooting at khsc on furlough friday
« on: June 05, 2011, 05:57:24 PM »
As mentioned and linked by Funtimes using the park outside of the posted times or official park hours is regulated by the Hawaii Revised Ordinances.
957
General Discussion / Re: people shooting at khsc on furlough friday
« on: June 01, 2011, 07:39:03 PM »
The rifle and pistol range fall under the supervision of the HPD on furlough days, just as it does on regular days in the morning hours prior to public hours or on Mon / Tues.  Not sure who you observed shooting up there, but the rifle range is being scheduled or being used by Officers or other authorized agency personnel signing in with HPD range staff and utilizing the rifle range.   If there are non authorized persons using the rifle range or handgun range on furlough Fridays it is not permitted.  I can guarantee if there are HPD range staff present and they notice anyone shooting they will address this if they observe anyone shooting on that side of the range who has not checked in and who is not authorized. 

Hope this helps. 
958
Again, I think we are jumping the gun by placing blame without all the facts.  Your first couple posts reads as if you guys answered with questions that would require further follow up from a doctor.  Then you state things are not exactly clear.  See where this has gone?  Simple clarification is not unreasonable before making negative assumptions. 

As for you question about the second application.  Don't even go there until you know exactly what he checked on his first visit.  "IF" your friend did indeed check that he had some type of issue and then re applies and swears in his statement otherwise, conflicting his first application, don't you see how he could be denied or that there could be an issue?  At the least in the eyes of the law I cannot see how it would be fault of any agency to deny him if his statements conflict.  It would now be at the least your friends burden of proof and not the state since he screwed up in the first place.  If indeed he did actually check something he shouldn't have.  Even if he made a "good faith" mistake and really doesn't fit into any category that would deny him, if he checked it, it now becomes his burden of proof.  He should have had his ducks in a row and had these points clarified before going in.  If you can't see that point, there is nothing more I can add. 

As you mention if he checked yes on anything then lol on him.  But again you guys need to not put the horse before the cart.  It does no good to continue the derogatory comments about the HPD or any organization without the all the facts.

I did start off shaky here, I admit and do apologize for that.

Further clarification has been made. The clarification stands with everything I've said so far.

The thing about the firearm acquiring process is that it's not a beauracracy. You don't examine it and make opinions and deny depending on how you feel about the person. Is there not a reason for a half-month background check and signing a release of medical records? Explain how they can legally deny him? (have you read HRS 134?) Is a note in a box in a previous application EVIDENCE that you HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED, despite no records showing in the extensive half-month process?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, NO means NO, YES means YES. There's nothing in the statues regarding applying for acquiring that allow them to make a decision regarding a consitutional right based on opinion or a feeling they have about a person.

As 2aHawaii suggests you might want to read 134 more closely and look at 134-2, sections (b) (c) and especially (d) "The chief of police of the respective counties may issue permits to acquire firearms".

I am not an attorney, but that little word "may" as stated in law has a lot of bearing.  Again it is your friends right to contest this. 

Again I will state that I my personal feelings differ quite a bit about firearm laws and regulations, particularly those within this state.
959
I would definitely attempt to get clarification on the matter.  Not trying to make any misdirection, but like you say, they are human also.  I also agree that it was very stupid and I can easily see how that can get you denied.  Just look at the FFL form.  What do you think would happen at a gun dealer if you added information like that?  I am not sure if you have noticed but there are also quite a few new faces behind the counter at the firearms registration desk.  Again no excuses for those guys, but it is what I have seen there.  Hope things work out for him.
960
Surf, what you must understand is that within the concepts of prior restraint, I don't have to prove I am eligible to possesses this weapon or firearm.  The legal burden lies with the state to reject it.

If you ask me, "Have you had Counseling?", to which I respond yes, that doesn't mean you can force me to go and get a clearance from a doctor. Just because we went and saw a doctor or took some medication doesn't mean you were diagnosed with a disorder.  That is the problem.

A man saw a doctor at the age of 16 -- and is now 41, why on earth legally or through common sense, should he have to get a written approval from anyone to say he is ok?  This is not a guilty before innocent country -- even though it tends to seem like it.

The question should be re-asked or discussed, and while it is a legal document, many people don't understand the language or questions presented and don't know how or what to answer.  To compound that problem, many officers fail to understand the law as written and the language and facts presented to them.
Your missing my point.  I am reading that Dregs friend may have checked a block stating that he had some type of issue.  Even Dregs stated that he is not sure.  Only his very last post after mine he stated that he did not state to have a mental disorder.  This is still not clarified.  If he checked that he had some type of issue, why blame the HPD for wanting the guy to show that he is no longer under care for any psychological or addiction to illegal substances?  You guys are putting the cart before the horse.  Clarify the issue before condemning anything.  We still don't know what the guy actually checked and neither does Dregs.

Uh wait a minute.....

Maybe I am slow but those 2 statements in red lead me to believe that you checked off certain areas on the application.  The HPD guys gave you the medical release forms to have filled out and it is somehow their fault?  It reads to me as if you guys marked off some type of psychological issue on the application.  This would seem to dictate that the onus of proof otherwise lies in your friends hands from that point on.  If you don't like the process by all means fight it.  Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you guys actually checked off on the application?  However the second statement in red seems to show that you checked off one thing and that if you apply again, you will check off something different.  Even if you were to go back later and say "hey guys I mistakenly checked the wrong thing, because when I checked I really wasn't officially diagnosed with anything".  Should they just take your word for it, or again should the onus of proof now lie upon your friend?  I might also be concerned about submitting another application and marking different items without proof.  It is a sworn legal document. 

I am not saying that I like the entire process, or even the firearms laws in this state, but I am not thinking that this is something where some HPD Officer working the firearms registration desk, or the entire HPD is trying to be some obstacle for owning a weapon.  Quite honestly the guy behind the counter could care less how many guns your friend owns.  They just want to make sure they are done at quitting time just like anyone else.  It is safe to say that while the HPD tends to side with the overall current political vibe of the state, in reality they could care less how many guns your friend owns provided he doesn't claim to be unstable and is following current laws.  It would also be unwise to think that your average Police Officer necessarily agrees with the Administrations or Departments views on this topic either.


I agree with you in that if he did indeed check that he has been diagnosed, then the scrutiny he is receiving is deserving. I'll have to double check with him if he checked "YES" on any of them. I've owned up to that error repeatedly. He did put in a box somewhere that he has NOT been DIAGNOSED with anything.

Regarding applying again - he checks NO he has not been DIAGNOSED with anything on 2nd application. On WHAT GROUNDS can they legally deny him? Answer that. They will do a medical background check (again) and discover that he has no diagnoses of mental or emotional disorders (again). So then, how is he to be denied according to the statues of the state? Oh, I "think" he's crazy, so I'll deny him?

Regarding the attitude of employees - Have you ever asked for something free? Discount? People DO care to a small degree. People will defend what their job stands for, and will uphold policies set forth. Your assessement that no one cares is a little naive, especially regarding a position(s) that has power over other people.

Checking now if he checked the YES box on anything lol.
Again, I think we are jumping the gun by placing blame without all the facts.  Your first couple posts reads as if you guys answered with questions that would require further follow up from a doctor.  Then you state things are not exactly clear.  See where this has gone?  Simple clarification is not unreasonable before making negative assumptions. 

As for you question about the second application.  Don't even go there until you know exactly what he checked on his first visit.  "IF" your friend did indeed check that he had some type of issue and then re applies and swears in his statement otherwise, conflicting his first application, don't you see how he could be denied or that there could be an issue?  At the least in the eyes of the law I cannot see how it would be fault of any agency to deny him if his statements conflict.  It would now be at the least your friends burden of proof and not the state since he screwed up in the first place.  If indeed he did actually check something he shouldn't have.  Even if he made a "good faith" mistake and really doesn't fit into any category that would deny him, if he checked it, it now becomes his burden of proof.  He should have had his ducks in a row and had these points clarified before going in.  If you can't see that point, there is nothing more I can add. 

As you mention if he checked yes on anything then lol on him.  But again you guys need to not put the horse before the cart.  It does no good to continue the derogatory comments about the HPD or any organization without the all the facts.
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