I will preface this post by saying that we are often our own worst enemies. Public shooters and LE included. You will find very good people in either group, or you will find some that think they know it all, been there done that, been in a position for years and are quite comfortable with status quo, or don't like having their little "piece of the pie" messed with. I think that is easily seen amongst various shooting groups, gun shops, clubs, or shooting cliques. Again this does not exclude LE. There is a lot that some people in LE and Military can offer to the public shooting scene, but traditionally there has been a bit of a disconnect between the two, even with those who would actually like to offer support, teaching, training, etc but shy away for various reasons.
You got me wrong. The negativity is not with the HPD. I wish they would practice more, if they could.
"Yep, and it is a known fact that the police and other agencies use our public facilities in any way they please, not following any of the stringent rules the general public must adhere to."Sorry, I know much often gets left out of the written word on a screen with the lack of inflection of speech, but I would think it is not difficult to see how this statement is easily seen as a negative.
I have to agree with Techi and Heavies. It is not a distain for HPD. It is for a system that allows officers with a viable venue to shoot to use the only available public range to the detriment of the public's use of said range. If the range at the academy isn't sufficient to meet the needs of the police, then that is their administration's fault and the shooting public should not get the short end of the proverbial stick because of poor planning by the police department. A secondary issue is that HPD is allowed to train in a manner that none of the public are allowed to do, such as holster draws, rapid follow up shots, or shooting at something besides that ridiculous 25 yards for handguns. And that does not take into account the ability to use the range during the week when no one else can, even if they try to sign up for it.
And, as someone who frequently uses the range after HPD does, I can tell you that they are not very responsible in cleaning up after themselves....if one of the "clubs" using the action bays were to leave it in such a sorry state, they'd have their privileges yanked.
I never used the word disdain, but the comment very much comes across as negative. Now there are other threads or replies in other threads around here that I would classify as disdain.
I would hope that there would be a better understanding of how things might work with the City and the HPD. It isn't a lack of planning or attempt to build on behalf of the HPD but rather an issue of funding approvals from the City and budgets. The master plan for the Waipahu academy included many things and were on the books since the late 80's. Look how long it took to get the funds to build the first phase or the indoor range. It isn't because HPD hasn't asked for the funding every single year for the past 20 years. Don't think that the HPD wouldn't like to be self sufficient with its own ranges as they would. It isn't the fault of the HPD. We should also remember that even if LE or any agencies didn't use the lower combat, or action bays, the City couldn't pay for the employees to staff and maintain running it. Heck the City can't even keep normal hours of business. The City also wins by having the HPD presence and training on days that the park is closed to the public by monitoring and running the facility, even chasing people off the silhouette range on off hours.
No excuses made, but there are many who appreciate the leftover once fired, Federal brass. I rarely see it last overnight. You might often find it located in places neatly in boxes left on benches even. I cannot even begin to count how many times, on my own, that I have hauled shot up pallets, target frames and other misc stuff to the dumpsters on a Monday. I don't like it, but don't complain either. We also need to remember that there are also many other agencies using the ranges.
I do not disagree with what the public wishes to do in regards to shooting and being able to practice and hone skills. Your barking up the wrong tree with me. Your talking to a shooter and a huge proponent of the issues discussed. I don't disagree with the needs that you are talking about.
I don't know what standards you think you are comparing HPD to, but I think your quite wrong Surf. I've just had close friend go through the Academy, and know about how much "firearms" training they get. With the exception of HRT, standard officers are not required to train enough. Some who enjoy firearms train on their own, but many times they are out alone at kokohead. Furthemore, the City, like almost all government agencies including the Marines and the Army, have significantly cut back their firearms training because of money.
I was talking about the way in which they run the range logistically speaking. The number of RSO's / instructors per student etc...not really about the type of training. But since you mention the training aspect I will say that the HPD is highly regarded in LE in general being only 1 of the 3 CALEA Tri Arc accredited agencies in the Nation. The HPD Academy is considered to be one of the tops in the country. As an example the largest LE organizational body is POST. Most POST academies are around 5 weeks. The HPD conducts 6 months of academy training. The amount of training hours obtained is staggering in comparison to POST or the majority of LE nationwide. There is a huge reason that other departments nationwide try heavily to recruit HPD Officers and give laterals. While HPD requires that ALL people even current LE, to go through the entire HPD academy.
I will be the first to state that more incumbent Officers need to shoot more often. That is a combination of budget, logistics and honestly lack of personal initiative. However I know the exact curriculum and training hours for a new recruit. While it might not bolster your confidence in LE in general, the HPD recruits obtain far more training hours than the majority of LE agencies nationwide. Most don't even come close. Most who come out of the academy are actually shooting very well. There are no issues with washing out a recruit for firearms and it happens often enough. The issue over time generally becomes a combination of what I mentioned above because shooting is a perishable skill. 90% of LE are not "gun people". It is looked at like a tool. In reality the pen gets far more use. I am not agreeing with this mentality, just acknowledging reality.
All said - the issue is not with HPD, it is with double standards. Citizens should be allowed to train just like any other law enforcement agency. We have the same responsibilities when discharging a firearm as they do. The exception is, when an officer accidentally kills someone in the line of duty nothing happens. When a citizen accidentally kills someone because of a bad shot, they go to court to face possible criminal and or civil penalties. That is just the reality of civil immunity that many government agents enjoy.
I very much disagree here. The HPD goes after its own with far more commitment of resources and voracity than they would with the general public for a similar incident. The local Feds and the Prosecutors do exactly the same. Traditionally a convicted LE Officer will get a far stiffer penalty than the the average person. I am not disagreeing with this as LE should be held to a higher standard, but to think anything otherwise is very much incorrect. Give your friend some time with the HPD and he will quickly tell you the same. On any investigation, you are guilty on mere allegation, until proven otherwise. Officers are more often than not, put on ROPA (relieved of police authority), for mere allegations.
The other problem is that if there are no safety issues with the police department using the range outside of normal public hours, why shouldn't the public be able to use it under the same circumstances. (I.e., permits etc.)
What safety issues? Perhaps I can help clarify something? Public shooting organizations have night shoots? I know there might be issues as of late, but there is more to that story. Again, some groups can be their own worst enemies. The HPD has their own RSO's / instructors and certain units have their own medics (TEMS and EMT) on site at training. The HPD is responsible for the entire complex, including upper ranges on Mon and Tue all day. And are responsible for the upper ranges in the AM hours M-F and are responsible for the lower ranges M-F and of course like any other park, during any hours of night or day. This is a benefit to the City and the HPD. We must also understand that the City has quite a bit of liability and insurance issues to think about. Yes I understand how waiver's work, but this is a City property and your dealing with a City that is very liberal in nature.