Cops on rampage - killing citizens (Read 29477 times)

zippz

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2019, 08:04:42 AM »
A headlock could quickly become a choke or VNR quickly depending on how it's done.  But how the deputy got into that situation in the first place is still troubling.

I saw another report that the guy was 120 lbs which would make him stronger but still a lightweight against a trained deputy.  It's possible it could have been a small female deputy though the director said "he.". Female LE officers have tools to use at a distance but are disadvantaged in a hand to hand and ground fight.
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Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2019, 08:18:06 AM »
A headlock could quickly become a choke or VNR quickly depending on how it's done.  But how the deputy got into that situation in the first place is still troubling.

Exactly.

I am not law enforcement, but have decent situational awareness, especially when around people that I suspect could do me harm.  The case involved a sheriff confronting a drunk suspect that could do him or her harm.  Hence, it is highly baffling for me to see how a short, light, and disabled drunk was able to execute a headlock on a sheriff, when they know that it could potentially could happen.   Getting the jump on a civilian is one thing, but on a law enforcement officer, highly unlikely.

The circumstances shared by the sheriff does not add up.



I saw another report that the guy was 120 lbs which would make him stronger but still a lightweight against a trained deputy.  It's possible it could have been a small female deputy though the director said "he.". Female LE officers have tools to use at a distance but are disadvantaged in a hand to hand and ground fight.

Very true.

However, if the sheriff was of similar stature or female, it becomes more troubling as to why the sheriff did not call for back-up, if he or she thought would be at a disadvantage in this case.

zippz

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2019, 08:47:23 AM »
Looks like we'll find out more about these soon.  If it's a systematic problem with complacency and other problems.

Public Safety chief appears headed for a fight at Legislature to keep his job

But state Sen. Clarence Nishihara said the problems at the agency may be so “wide-ranging,” they might not be fixed by merely finding a new director.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/03/09/public-safety-chief-appears-headed-fight-legislature-keep-his-job/
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2019, 08:53:49 AM »
Looks like we'll find out more about these soon.  If it's a systematic problem with complacency and other problems.

Public Safety chief appears headed for a fight at Legislature to keep his job

But state Sen. Clarence Nishihara said the problems at the agency may be so “wide-ranging,” they might not be fixed by merely finding a new director.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/03/09/public-safety-chief-appears-headed-fight-legislature-keep-his-job/

Let's hope they succeed.      :shaka:

ren

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2019, 09:31:47 AM »
I am not law enforcement, but have decent situational awareness, especially when around people that I suspect could do me harm.  The case involved a sheriff confronting a drunk suspect that could do him or her harm.  Hence, it is highly baffling for me to see how a short, light, and disabled drunk was able to execute a headlock on a sheriff, when they know that it could potentially could happen.   Getting the jump on a civilian is one thing, but on a law enforcement officer, highly unlikely.

Let's hope they succeed.     :shaka:

Perhaps you should apply with your enhanced perspective and somewhat decent situational awareness.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 04:49:20 PM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2019, 10:50:55 PM »
The case involved a sheriff confronting a drunk suspect that could do him or her harm.  Hence, it is highly baffling for me to see how a short, light, and disabled drunk was able to execute a headlock on a sheriff, when they know that it could potentially could happen.

It is possible that the sheriff got complacent, as they say complacent kills.

But even if the sheriff got complacent that does not make it an unjustified shooting.


But in this whole case, what do you think really happened? You think this guy got pissed off at the homeless guy and basically decided to murder him and fabricate some fake story about being in a headlock?

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #146 on: March 09, 2019, 11:29:53 PM »
But in this whole case, what do you think really happened? You think this guy got pissed off at the homeless guy and basically decided to murder him and fabricate some fake story about being in a headlock?

What I think is irrelevant.

The sheriff's claims that he had to shoot because he was in a headlock does not make sense.  Being in a headlock is not the same as being in a choke hold and the sheriff was not in a choke hold by his own testimony.  Hence, he was not in a life or death situation where shooting the perpetrator was the only course of action available to the sheriff.

Even if one can make the argument that the suspect could have transitioned his headlock into a choke hold; one, that is only mere speculation; and two, a presumption has to be made that the suspect had advanced grappling skills, which in all available accounts he did not.



drck1000

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2019, 03:04:44 AM »
FACT - A headlock (both front and side variations) can cut off the carotid.

OPINION - It does take a bit more arm strength than a good rear choke.

I will say that if one is already winded, sometimes it doesn’t take much to choke out someone. Is that was happened in the incident at the capitol? To me, just based on what was reported, does leave some questions. But I wasn’t there. Plenty of assumptions either way.





macsak

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2019, 06:16:35 AM »

oldfart

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2019, 06:41:15 AM »
What I think is irrelevant.

The sheriff's claims that he had to shoot because he was in a headlock does not make sense.  Being in a headlock is not the same as being in a choke hold and the sheriff was not in a choke hold by his own testimony.  Hence, he was not in a life or death situation where shooting the perpetrator was the only course of action available to the sheriff.

Even if one can make the argument that the suspect could have transitioned his headlock into a choke hold; one, that is only mere speculation; and two, a presumption has to be made that the suspect had advanced grappling skills, which in all available accounts he did not.

===========
 
What, Me Worry?

Surf

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2019, 10:48:17 AM »

Many on this forum continuously train and provide basic/advanced firearms training to the general 2nd Amendment community.  That is a conscious choice of those who wish to be prepared for any violent encounter.

Law enforcement officers received similar, if not, outright advanced training and have options to further their training, if they so desire.  Hence, the lack of updating their training should never be an excuse to resort to their firearms when such situations are not warranted.  That's all.

------------------------------------------------------

What I think is irrelevant.

The sheriff's claims that he had to shoot because he was in a headlock does not make sense.  Being in a headlock is not the same as being in a choke hold and the sheriff was not in a choke hold by his own testimony.  Hence, he was not in a life or death situation where shooting the perpetrator was the only course of action available to the sheriff.

Even if one can make the argument that the suspect could have transitioned his headlock into a choke hold; one, that is only mere speculation; and two, a presumption has to be made that the suspect had advanced grappling skills, which in all available accounts he did not.
It is patently obvious to anyone who has any true expertise in police training and what happens in reality with ongoing officer training AND for those who have combatives training that these above statements are horse shit which makes the bolded part the only thing that is correct.

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2019, 12:40:10 PM »
It is patently obvious to anyone who has any true expertise in police training and what happens in reality with ongoing officer training AND for those who have combatives training that these above statements are horse shit which makes the bolded part the only thing that is correct.

Opinions vary.  I guess that it why the Public Safety Chief is currently under investigation as Zipps reported for the very same issues I stated above that you summarily dismissed with your obviously biased opinion regarding this case.

Moroever, your statement above is nothing more than a rubber stamp that has been used to justify questionable/deadly law enforcement actions of the past (i.e., Kent State Massacre (1970), the Pepper Spraying of Students in UC Davis (2011), the wholesale police brutality against the protestors of the Occupy Wall Street Movement (2011), etc.

ren

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2019, 01:21:41 PM »
It is patently obvious to anyone who has any true expertise in police training and what happens in reality with ongoing officer training AND for those who have combatives training that these above statements are horse shit which makes the bolded part the only thing that is correct.

The hammer of Thor has been raised and leveled!
and
mic drop.
Deeds Not Words

Masamune

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2019, 01:54:38 PM »

groveler

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2019, 03:18:17 PM »
Action always beats reaction.
I'm the last guy on this site to defend a cop, especially a union one,
but the rule I was taught is 7 meters.  Any threat inside that bubble is
deadly force, if indicated.  That works both ways.   By their job
requirements Cops have to invade that range.  So I understand why
the least little action on a subjects part will possibly result in a death.
I fear and do not trust our police.  They are licensed killers.  That is
the society Hawaii has chosen.  Don't do stupid or they will kill you and
have a beer afterwards. OBEY!

eyeeatingfish

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2019, 09:42:34 PM »
What I think is irrelevant.

The sheriff's claims that he had to shoot because he was in a headlock does not make sense.  Being in a headlock is not the same as being in a choke hold and the sheriff was not in a choke hold by his own testimony.  Hence, he was not in a life or death situation where shooting the perpetrator was the only course of action available to the sheriff.

Even if one can make the argument that the suspect could have transitioned his headlock into a choke hold; one, that is only mere speculation; and two, a presumption has to be made that the suspect had advanced grappling skills, which in all available accounts he did not.


You are saying it doesn't make sense, so what is the alternative course of events that really happened? The headlock seems more likely than just an angry cop murdering someone and making up an excuse.

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2019, 09:50:49 PM »
You are saying it doesn't make sense, so what is the alternative course of events that really happened? The headlock seems more likely than just an angry cop murdering someone and making up an excuse.

All that I am saying is that the fatality that occurred at the capitol should not have happened and alternative non-deadly force could have been employed by the sheriff. 

eyeeatingfish

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2019, 10:09:55 PM »
All that I am saying is that the fatality that occurred at the capitol should not have happened and alternative non-deadly force could have been employed by the sheriff.

That is a pretty big assumption.

Notice that I am not saying you are wrong, only that there is not enough information to support your conclusion. It is possible the Sheriff did something legally improper  but it is also possible he didn't do anything legally improper.

ren

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2019, 06:59:29 AM »
HORSE SHIT
Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: Cops on rampage - killing citizens
« Reply #159 on: March 13, 2019, 07:49:37 AM »
Notice that I am not saying you are wrong, only that there is not enough information to support your conclusion. It is possible the Sheriff did something legally improper  but it is also possible he didn't do anything legally improper.

Likewise, I never said it was not out of the possibility that the fatality was justified.

For me, I am more inclined to believe the sheriff's recollection of events if there was evidence that the suspect had either a clear physical advantage or at least comparable hand-to-hand skill over the sheriff.

From all available facts, the suspect had neither.  Hence, it is hard to imagine a person trained for potential physical altercations so easily being put in a headlock when that person probably did not have the coordination to walk a chalk line due the suspect's level of intoxication.