My Bolt Action .308 Win & 6.5 CM Reloading - Sharing Experience (Read 22562 times)

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2021, 08:29:13 AM »
Case trimming.  What do you trim to?  How did you set that trim length?

My buddy's current setup has a rotary trimmer on a sizing die. I think it's set to trim the brass back to "original" factory dimensions.  I have a Sinclair/Wilson trimmer in-bound, so he can continue to use his trimmer that is set to his chamber headspace and I can use my trimmer where the trim length can be adjusted. 

ren

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2021, 09:23:03 AM »
I use a Giraud TriWay to what its set at factory.
Deeds Not Words

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2021, 09:36:42 AM »
I use a Giraud TriWay to what its set at factory.
How does that set the trim length? By how much of the neck passes the insert?

I've seen a lot of folks using the Giraud Power Case Trimmer, which has inserts for specific calibers.  Some even create a custom insert from the chamber reamer for their rifle.  I'm not ready for that level, but darn interesting on what is available.  Similar with annealing machines with the AMP.

ren

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2021, 09:40:05 AM »
it is set off the shoulder
here's the manual: https://www.giraudtool.com/uploads/8/2/0/0/82007436/giraud_tri_way_trimmer.pdf

I like it as it trims, chamfers and deburrs in one step - like a pencil sharpener
Deeds Not Words

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2021, 10:00:25 AM »
it is set off the shoulder
here's the manual: https://www.giraudtool.com/uploads/8/2/0/0/82007436/giraud_tri_way_trimmer.pdf

I like it as it trims, chamfers and deburrs in one step - like a pencil sharpener
Ahh, cool.

How do you choose or set your trim length?  Shoulder plus _______ (or something like that)?  Maintain the same length from shoulder as factory case? My buddy's trimmer is set off of the shoulder, but measurements was the total case length.  The Sinclair/Wilson has a case holder which is locked in by the case body/sides.

Seems like many different perspectives/methods, where it seems like not a major factor (as opposed to other sizing parameters). 

ren

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2021, 10:53:39 AM »
Ahh, cool.

How do you choose or set your trim length?  Shoulder plus _______ (or something like that)?  Maintain the same length from shoulder as factory case? My buddy's trimmer is set off of the shoulder, but measurements was the total case length.  The Sinclair/Wilson has a case holder which is locked in by the case body/sides.

Seems like many different perspectives/methods, where it seems like not a major factor (as opposed to other sizing parameters).

I just trim in reference to Dillon case gauges. I don't have a good set of calipers (Midway - not repeatable). I use Mitutoyos at work and there is a significant difference. I don't spent too much time with variables such as trim length and sizing. Minimum is good for me. Most of my shooting is with an AR or 1911.
Deeds Not Words

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2021, 11:06:06 AM »
I just trim in reference to Dillon case gauges. I don't have a good set of calipers (Midway - not repeatable). I use Mitutoyos at work and there is a significant difference. I don't spent too much time with variables such as trim length and sizing. Minimum is good for me. Most of my shooting is with an AR or 1911.
I have two Mitutoyos (one digital and one dial).  I really like the dial calipers, except when doing measurements that require zeroing out, like with the comparators.   

I've compared with the first caliper that I bought many years ago (General) for I think about $20.  I also have an iGaging one and I've done some comparisons between them.  In terms of repeatable, all of the calipers have are generally repeatable. I have noticed that the jaws on the cheapers ones either aren't machined that well (not square or uniform plane) or the sliding side of the jaw can tilt.  For most of my uses, all are "ok" in that they give (mostly) repeatable relative measurements. 

Yeah, not spending much time on trim length. Just curious what folks here do.  Even for sizing, once I have my die set, I'll check the cases here and there, but pretty much locked things in now that I have my chamber sized.  Eventually, I will get into varying seating depth, but even then, the measurements are relative to start and end point, and increments in between. 

Heavies

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2021, 07:00:14 PM »
I have two Mitutoyos (one digital and one dial).  I really like the dial calipers, except when doing measurements that require zeroing out, like with the comparators.   

I've compared with the first caliper that I bought many years ago (General) for I think about $20.  I also have an iGaging one and I've done some comparisons between them.  In terms of repeatable, all of the calipers have are generally repeatable. I have noticed that the jaws on the cheapers ones either aren't machined that well (not square or uniform plane) or the sliding side of the jaw can tilt.  For most of my uses, all are "ok" in that they give (mostly) repeatable relative measurements. 

Yeah, not spending much time on trim length. Just curious what folks here do.  Even for sizing, once I have my die set, I'll check the cases here and there, but pretty much locked things in now that I have my chamber sized.  Eventually, I will get into varying seating depth, but even then, the measurements are relative to start and end point, and increments in between.



Neck trim length just has to be within specs for that particular caliber.  You can look up the specs online.  More important is that they are all the same length.



For my accurate target bolt gun cases, I make sure that everything that touches the bullet is all uniform.  Anneal every case every firing, trim to the same length every time, neck wall thickness is as close to the same as possible (Only need to do this once when cases are new, used to turn the necks, but it's too much work, and also large swings in neck wall thickness also indicated the same uneven wall thickness in the rest of the case.  I cull cases that are more than .002" out), size the neck from the inside to the same I.D. using the Lee Collet neck sizer. 


I do all of this because I want the bullet held with the same force and want the bullet released the same way for every shot as close as possible.


One other thing is I bump the shoulder .0015" to .002" using a Redding shoulder/body die first before neck sizing. 


Idea is I want all the cases as close to identical as possible.

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2021, 08:10:50 PM »

Neck trim length just has to be within specs for that particular caliber.  You can look up the specs online.  More important is that they are all the same length.



For my accurate target bolt gun cases, I make sure that everything that touches the bullet is all uniform.  Anneal every case every firing, trim to the same length every time, neck wall thickness is as close to the same as possible (Only need to do this once when cases are new, used to turn the necks, but it's too much work, and also large swings in neck wall thickness also indicated the same uneven wall thickness in the rest of the case.  I cull cases that are more than .002" out), size the neck from the inside to the same I.D. using the Lee Collet neck sizer. 


I do all of this because I want the bullet held with the same force and want the bullet released the same way for every shot as close as possible.


One other thing is I bump the shoulder .0015" to .002" using a Redding shoulder/body die first before neck sizing. 


Idea is I want all the cases as close to identical as possible.
Consistency once things are setup properly is where I am working toward. Annealing is a big step toward getting there in the process.  I have noticed, or at least started to notice the effects of variation in neck tension.  Both in variation in velocity as well as consistency in seating.  We suspect the seating die that my buddy has, and the ones that I was originally using, sets the neck tension too tight.  I have an PMA Tool expander mandrel and die inbound and a range of bushings for a Redding Type-S sizing die.  May eventually try the KM mandrel system in order to allow more variation in the neck tension, but those have a long lead time. Figure start with consistency with one level of mandrel and then try varying in the future. 

Thanks for the feedback on trim length and what you do for bumping the shoulder back. Now that I have the chamber headspace dimension of my gun, I have to decide how much I will bump the shoulders back.  Likely in the same 0.0015 to 0.002 range you do though. 

Had looked up neck turning, but don't plan on going that route.  At least for now. 

Heavies

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2021, 09:55:17 PM »
Consistency once things are setup properly is where I am working toward. Annealing is a big step toward getting there in the process.  I have noticed, or at least started to notice the effects of variation in neck tension.  Both in variation in velocity as well as consistency in seating.  We suspect the seating die that my buddy has, and the ones that I was originally using, sets the neck tension too tight.  I have an PMA Tool expander mandrel and die inbound and a range of bushings for a Redding Type-S sizing die.  May eventually try the KM mandrel system in order to allow more variation in the neck tension, but those have a long lead time. Figure start with consistency with one level of mandrel and then try varying in the future. 

Thanks for the feedback on trim length and what you do for bumping the shoulder back. Now that I have the chamber headspace dimension of my gun, I have to decide how much I will bump the shoulders back.  Likely in the same 0.0015 to 0.002 range you do though. 

Had looked up neck turning, but don't plan on going that route.  At least for now. 

For bumping the shoulder i use the redding body die and mink oil shoe polish (which is Lanolin) for lube.  Just a dab on the finger and swipe on the body of the case, avoiding buildup near the neck/shoulder area. 

Once the die is set up to give the desired setback, it is very accurate and repeatable bump. (Cases must be annealed to have consistent results regardless)  With a .0015 .002 setback cases will chamber easily yet have minimal play in the chamber.


Played with variable neck tensions before, and found no appreciable advantage IMO. 


Thats why I use the Lee collet neck sizer. The set dimension of the center mandrel is perfectly repeatable, and the crimping of the outside of the neck straightens the case directly in line with the flash hole.  Plus the neck is supported from the inside and outside during the process of sizing.  This is not the case with any other type of neck sizing die.  You can run into problems and variables depending on lubrication. (Lee collet requires no lube.)


All ammo produced by the method of body sizing then neck sizing in two steps have always produced near zero run out in every round. I quit measuring or even worrying about runout... 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 10:07:52 PM by Heavies »

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2021, 08:23:33 AM »
For bumping the shoulder i use the redding body die and mink oil shoe polish (which is Lanolin) for lube.  Just a dab on the finger and swipe on the body of the case, avoiding buildup near the neck/shoulder area. 

Once the die is set up to give the desired setback, it is very accurate and repeatable bump. (Cases must be annealed to have consistent results regardless)  With a .0015 .002 setback cases will chamber easily yet have minimal play in the chamber.


Played with variable neck tensions before, and found no appreciable advantage IMO. 


Thats why I use the Lee collet neck sizer. The set dimension of the center mandrel is perfectly repeatable, and the crimping of the outside of the neck straightens the case directly in line with the flash hole.  Plus the neck is supported from the inside and outside during the process of sizing.  This is not the case with any other type of neck sizing die.  You can run into problems and variables depending on lubrication. (Lee collet requires no lube.)


All ammo produced by the method of body sizing then neck sizing in two steps have always produced near zero run out in every round. I quit measuring or even worrying about runout...
Ahh, thanks!  Still very much learning. Following the lead from some folks, including some that you posted videos of in other threads.  Overall, very much open to other ways as I find my way (which will always evolve).  For now, trying to go down the path of a specific lead and then go adjust from there. 

You're the second person to mention lanolin.  I already have some Hornady and Redding die wax, but I also have the same mink oil for my shoes.  I haven't used it in many years.  Hope the tins aren't all dried out. 

Noted on the variable neck tensions.  I mostly meant being able to have varying bushings and mandrels that end up with the desired neck tension.  Something I was warned about on the machining of those elements.  They aren't uber expensive.  Since they are mostly available online, so I got a range so that I didn't have a case where I tried a bushing and it didn't end up with the target, and then have to order another bushing and wait.

At what point in your process do you do the neck size and the mandrel?  Since your setup the Lee collet doesn't need lube.  I read where some apply dry powder lube for the mandrel.  Since the process is just before powder charge and bullet seating, they chose a lube method that doesn't impact the powder. 

ren

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2021, 09:05:39 AM »
I witnessed Heavies reloading methods and they work! He destroys spotters.
Deeds Not Words

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2021, 09:10:55 AM »
I witnessed Heavies reloading methods and they work! He destroys spotters.
Meh.  His reloading times with black powder handguns could use some work. . .  :P  ;D

I appreciate his feedback and experience.  Your feedback too, as well as others on here.  All good information for me, and hopefully for others as well. 

TooFewPews

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2021, 11:03:44 AM »
i noticed that you load at 0.5 grain increments.

personally, i would load at 0.4 grain (roughly 1%) increments in hopes of getting better resolution in my data.  it might also help prevent you from skipping over a node.

of course, everyone has a different opinion so....

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2021, 11:38:47 AM »
i noticed that you load at 0.5 grain increments.

personally, i would load at 0.4 grain (roughly 1%) increments in hopes of getting better resolution in my data.  it might also help prevent you from skipping over a node.

of course, everyone has a different opinion so....
Initial sessions. Powder charge tests will be 0.2 increments once the real/serious tests starts.

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2021, 08:08:15 AM »
Getting ready for the next phase of load development, which is powder charge testing with upgraded/updated case prep equipment and fire formed brass.  Holding on the annealer to really dive into that, so sort of in a holding pattern for at least 1-2 weeks. 

While that process gets geared up, will likely start preparations for the next batch of reloading preparations, which is after I get the next set of brass in.  They will be new, unprimed brass.  Plan is to loadup and get them fire formed.  Now, I'm trying to decide what to do to get that next set of brass there.  Many folks (or at least a couple of key folks I have been taking advice from) load up the new brass with something close to their proven loads.  I don't have a proven load at this point.  So what I was doing was in that process of fire forming brass, I was testing different powders at different powder charges to see if I noticed anything.  Process was getting my feet wet with the entire reloading process, but ultimate goal was a set of fire formed brass ahead of the procurement of reloading equipment.  Now that the reloading equipment is almost all here, starting plans for the next "prep phase".

In the initial rounds, I chose to load different powders in 0.5 gr increments.  Again, the idea was primarily to fire form the brass to my chamber.  The 0.5 gr increments was based on trying to cover most of the min to close to max charge ranges of most of the powders that I have.  If I saw some patterns or a charge that showed promise, great.  That allowed me to load up some ammo to what at least showed decent results for some range days in the interim, where I was shooting in the 200+ yard distances.  The "real" load development is testing in 0.2 gr increments, but want to start that with fire formed brass. 

In order to get to the fire formed brass for the next set of brass that will enter the pipeline, I am debating what to do with that set.  I have a good amount of primers.  However, I sort of want to save the powders that I have had good results for the next load development phase.  So I am thinking about loading up some ammo with the powders that haven't shown as great results and boolits in other weights that I have on hand, but decided not to go with.  I have a range of 168 gr, but I decided to go with 175 gr SMK for the load development.  One thing I noticed though was in some of my fire formed brass, in some cases they weren't expanded to the full chamber.  I found some that were fully fire formed, where the bolt wouldn't close on them easily with firing pin and ejector removed.  Then others where the bolt would close easy and shorter.  The size where the bolt closes easy is where I am targeting for the sizing die.  But I have some cases that didn't get expanded to the full. I don't see that as a problem per se, but just something I noticed. 

It will be a while before I get the brass for the next phase, so have some time to decide.  Will also need to stock up on powder and boolits. . .

macsak

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2021, 08:18:23 AM »
heads

Getting ready for the next phase of load development, which is powder charge testing with upgraded/updated case prep equipment and fire formed brass.  Holding on the annealer to really dive into that, so sort of in a holding pattern for at least 1-2 weeks. 

While that process gets geared up, will likely start preparations for the next batch of reloading preparations, which is after I get the next set of brass in.  They will be new, unprimed brass.  Plan is to loadup and get them fire formed.  Now, I'm trying to decide what to do to get that next set of brass there.  Many folks (or at least a couple of key folks I have been taking advice from) load up the new brass with something close to their proven loads.  I don't have a proven load at this point.  So what I was doing was in that process of fire forming brass, I was testing different powders at different powder charges to see if I noticed anything.  Process was getting my feet wet with the entire reloading process, but ultimate goal was a set of fire formed brass ahead of the procurement of reloading equipment.  Now that the reloading equipment is almost all here, starting plans for the next "prep phase".

In the initial rounds, I chose to load different powders in 0.5 gr increments.  Again, the idea was primarily to fire form the brass to my chamber.  The 0.5 gr increments was based on trying to cover most of the min to close to max charge ranges of most of the powders that I have.  If I saw some patterns or a charge that showed promise, great.  That allowed me to load up some ammo to what at least showed decent results for some range days in the interim, where I was shooting in the 200+ yard distances.  The "real" load development is testing in 0.2 gr increments, but want to start that with fire formed brass. 

In order to get to the fire formed brass for the next set of brass that will enter the pipeline, I am debating what to do with that set.  I have a good amount of primers.  However, I sort of want to save the powders that I have had good results for the next load development phase.  So I am thinking about loading up some ammo with the powders that haven't shown as great results and boolits in other weights that I have on hand, but decided not to go with.  I have a range of 168 gr, but I decided to go with 175 gr SMK for the load development.  One thing I noticed though was in some of my fire formed brass, in some cases they weren't expanded to the full chamber.  I found some that were fully fire formed, where the bolt wouldn't close on them easily with firing pin and ejector removed.  Then others where the bolt would close easy and shorter.  The size where the bolt closes easy is where I am targeting for the sizing die.  But I have some cases that didn't get expanded to the full. I don't see that as a problem per se, but just something I noticed. 

It will be a while before I get the brass for the next phase, so have some time to decide.  Will also need to stock up on powder and boolits. . .

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2021, 07:23:18 PM »
Have been shooting 175 gr SMK with various powders.  Ended up there for the most part due to feedback on performance out to 1000 yards, at least over the 168 gr SMK.  So far I've been happy with the results, even before I've started on the more serious load development.  That said, I long envisioned eventually trying Berger boolits.  Been doing more research and I really want to try their hybrid offerings.  They currently have 168 gr and 185 gr.  Looking at the load data, the 185 gr max charges are in the 50-80 fps less range.  However, that's for COAL at 2.810". 

The 168 gr SMK seem to have a lot of bad reviews once they go beyond 800 yards.  I haven't shot the 168 gr FGMM much beyond 600 yards.  And I've had at least decent results with the 175 gr SMK handloads in the 300-1110 ish distances.  So now I'm debating if I will go with the 168 gr Berger hybrid, or 185 gr Berger hybrid.  All will be trans-sonic by 800ish yard range with COAL in the 2.8" range.  I'll have to compare the BCs closer, but I think the BC of the 168 gr Berger hybrids are more than the 175 gr SMK.  Then there are a few 175 gr Berger options, but not the hybrid. So many choices. . .

I found some sites with Berger boolits on sale, but not sure which ones I want.  I'm still going to be shooting the 175 gr SMK for a while more, so I have some time to research and maybe try 100 or so. 

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2021, 07:27:01 PM »
The load development sequence I have decided on is powder charge testing first, and then seating depth.  However, most of the folks that I'm modelling the sequence from typically start with seating depth closer to jam.  The headspace in my gun is generous, so I'll be limited by the mag for max length.  Now I'm thinking of starting the powder charge test at the max length based on the mag first.  That way, it will open up (in theory) the options on powder charge.  At least as opposed to starting at the "base" COAL length of 2.800+/- range. 

drck1000

Re: My Bolt Action .308 Reloading - Sharing Experience
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2021, 01:46:15 PM »
Have been noticing shortages in all of the "common" rifle brass calibers.  Namely .308.  Since this recent run/shortage started, stuff like Federal, Winchester, Starline brass sold out quickly. But the more expensive stuff (Nosler, Norma, Lapua, Peterson, etc) were in stock all over.  Since around the first week in Jan, even those have been out of stock in most places.  For .308, typically only the .308 Palma (SRP) are in stock, or the LRP brass is in stock for 20-40% more.  When they do come back in stock, they sell out within hours.  Pretty nuts.

I have noticed that various vendors have been getting some in stock here and there, so that is promising.  They sell out super quick though.  I've received email notification of in stock around 9-11 pm HST, then sold out by 8 am HST the next morning.  I am assuming the vendors do stock updates overnight, which works out well for us in Hawaii.  But then once the EST wakes up, things seem to sell out super fast. 

Seeing boolits in stock less and less as well.   :(