Started a thread for shooting instructors to chat and ask questions.

First one is anyone have experience teaching a pistol class to someone that is blind.

Would a blind person want to use a firearm?

What could go wrong???

target ID?

Started a thread for shooting instructors to chat and ask questions.

First one is anyone have experience teaching a pistol class to someone that is blind.

There’s a punchline to this somewhere right?  Wouldn’t a fully blind person fail 2 of the four safety rules?

Spray and pray.

Spray and pray.

that's what she said

I get it.
Star Wars opens this week,
Use the Force! 

I know it's been done before on the mainland and I hear about blind persons taking CCW courses.  I have a person that wants to do the NRA class.  Also as an instructor, it's a violation of the ADA to refuse service without attempting to make accommodations and they'd automatically win a lawsuit.  NRA strongly recommends taking on persons with disabilities.  I'm guessing they want to take the class for the challenge and to feel normal.  The firearm safety rules would not be violated when an assistant is used.

I'm thinking the person will bring their own assistant  who will be their eyes, and they'll feel for the parts of the pistol.  Written test would be verbal.  Paper qualification would be done with the assistant helping to sight the gun at a target at the minimum distance of 15 feet.  Have them practice enough where they have the muscle memory to aim the pistol at the target themselves.

I know it's been done before on the mainland and I hear about blind persons taking CCW courses.  I have a person that wants to do the NRA class.  Also as an instructor, it's a violation of the ADA to refuse service without attempting to make accommodations and they'd automatically win a lawsuit.  NRA strongly recommends taking on persons with disabilities.  I'm guessing they want to take the class for the challenge and to feel normal.  The firearm safety rules would not be violated when an assistant is used.

I'm thinking the person will bring their own assistant  who will be their eyes, and they'll feel for the parts of the pistol.  Written test would be verbal.  Paper qualification would be done with the assistant helping to sight the gun at a target at the minimum distance of 15 feet.  Have them practice enough where they have the muscle memory to aim the pistol at the target themselves.

Are you saying that as an NRA Instructor, we have an obligation to provide instruction or face a lawsuit? 

I generally only do training and affidavits for friends who I know well.  I politely decline folks, even friends of friends, many times.  My name will be on the affidavit and that's the bottom line. 

As for training for blind CCW or other firearm training.  I recall a video on FB where this came up for a blind guy going through the training for CCW.  I don't recall the outcome, but there were good points on both sides.  I would be willing to take a blind person shooting, but I'd have come serious concerns about anything beyond that.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't have the right to defend themselves, but I also don't know enough about both the limitations and capabilities of blind folks to be able to feel comfortable with the whole thing.  It's not like there's such a thing as a provision that the person will have an assistant when needing to use the firearm to defend themselves.  Even for basic pistol, how are they going to be able to follow the firearm safety rules?  Again, maybe there's a way to work around that, but I am not aware, at least to the point where I'd be comfortable taking it on. 

Are you saying that as an NRA Instructor, we have an obligation to provide instruction or face a lawsuit? 

I generally only do training and affidavits for friends who I know well.  I politely decline folks, even friends of friends, many times.  My name will be on the affidavit and that's the bottom line. 

In your case, it would not apply since a condition of acceptance is they have to be your friend.  Now if you have a friend that's disabled and you don't train them, then it could be grounds for a lawsuit.  If this was an instructor or organization that does business with the public, like LIFE or individual instructors, then they would be required to service them even if it means losing money on the client.  A scenario was given for deaf persons, the instructor would be obligated to hire a sign language interpreter and have to eat the cost of that.  Not doing so would cause them to lose a ADA lawsuit and possibly lose their NRA teaching credentials.

This was a big issue they brought up at the NRA training counselors course and NRA annual meeting, enough so that they created a new chapter for the instructors course teaching this.  NRA also hired a person at their HQ to help instructors accommodate the disabled.

The simple answer was consult with an attorney prior to saying no.

I believe Zipps is correct that there is a potential for a lawsuit if "reasonable accommodations" are not made. 

I can understand both sides of the argument.  But 1 of the rules of firearms is to positively ID your target and what's beyond it. 

I wonder how HPD would handle the permit application?

In your case, it would not apply since a condition of acceptance is they have to be your friend.  Now if you have a friend that's disabled and you don't train them, then it could be grounds for a lawsuit.  If this was an instructor or organization that does business with the public, like LIFE or individual instructors, then they would be required to service them even if it means losing money on the client.  A scenario was given for deaf persons, the instructor would be obligated to hire a sign language interpreter and have to eat the cost of that.  Not doing so would cause them to lose a ADA lawsuit and possibly lose their NRA teaching credentials.

This was a big issue they brought up at the NRA training counselors course and NRA annual meeting, enough so that they created a new chapter for the instructors course teaching this.  NRA also hired a person at their HQ to help instructors accommodate the disabled.

The simple answer was consult with an attorney prior to saying no.

Maybe I’m super naive or missing something here. So you’re saying that if I have done training for friends that if I choose not to accept a request from another friend for training that I open myself up for a lawsuit? Well, I guess people can sue anyone for anything these days.

I would hope that I could explain my concerns to my friend and not lead to a lawsuit. However, if I don’t want to train someone, for whatever my personal reason, I view that as my right. I don’t see it as a right for people to get training from me.

For the deaf person, can they read? A whiteboard would be the first thing along with a lot of reading material.
A blind person is at a severe disadvantage as firearms are designed with optical sights. I can't think of firearms that are designed for the blind. I sympathize for them but how can you shoot at something you can't see? Refer to the tragedy at Ruby Ridge and what that FBI agent did.
We've become such a litigious society that we look for blame or "reasonable accommodations" to the point of impractical.

For the deaf person, can they read? A whiteboard would be the first thing along with a lot of reading material.
A blind person is at a severe disadvantage as firearms are designed with optical sights. I can't think of firearms that are designed for the blind. I sympathize for them but how can you shoot at something you can't see? Refer to the tragedy at Ruby Ridge and what that FBI agent did.
We've become such a litigious society that we look for blame or "reasonable accommodations" to the point of impractical.

The ADA, NAACP, ACLU etc... all started out with good ideas, but now are more of a joke and not "reasonable".

You have to separate 2 things and analyze them separately.  The class and shooting on your own.

Shooting classes have been taught to the blind before, it's very rare but not a new thing.  It's just myself and most instructors don't have experience with it.  It can be safe under supervision.

For shooting on his own, for practice and self-defense, it's a very bad idea for him to do it on their own.  However under supervision, they can practice and do it safely.

Maybe I’m super naive or missing something here. So you’re saying that if I have done training for friends that if I choose not to accept a request from another friend for training that I open myself up for a lawsuit? Well, I guess people can sue anyone for anything these days.

I would hope that I could explain my concerns to my friend and not lead to a lawsuit. However, if I don’t want to train someone, for whatever my personal reason, I view that as my right. I don’t see it as a right for people to get training from me.

If you have friends that would sue you, they're probably not really friends.  It would be an extremely rare case if it did come up.
The case would depend if you're considered a business, if you do it to earn money.  If it's just teaching friends and no money is involved then ADA regulations doesn't apply to you.  If it is a business, then ADA applies/  Similar as how businesses can't discriminate on race, sex, etc.

There are no vision tests to buy a gun, get a permit, or own it -- unlike driving.

There are many people who are legally blind without their corrective lenses. 

It's foreseeable (pun) that one of those people who by law must only operate a vehicle with corrective lenses may have to operate a firearm without them.  If during a struggle their glasses are knocked off and broken, or in the middle of the night they can't locate their glasses before defending against someone coming through the bedroom door, they may be legally blind but in need of using a firearm.  Training would be easier, but in actual SD/HD scenarios, that might not be equivalent.

Unless there's a minimum standard set for seeing, hearing, or whatever other physical limitations people have, the Second Amendment applies to them as with anyone else.

If you have friends that would sue you, they're probably not really friends.  It would be an extremely rare case if it did come up.
The case would depend if you're considered a business, if you do it to earn money.  If it's just teaching friends and no money is involved then ADA regulations doesn't apply to you.  If it is a business, then ADA applies/  Similar as how businesses can't discriminate on race, sex, etc.

Are you referring to Title III of ADA?  The part about public accommodations?

I deal with ADA and ABA on a somewhat regular basis for work. Not as part of a business, but accommodating both federal mandates. A family member needs and takes advantage of accessible accommodations. However, in dealing with ADA and ABA compliance, I have also found that those reviewing for ADA and ABA can take things too far, which can be said for many aspects of life.

I wasn’t thinking in terms of a business.  Even for ADA, I am mostly familiar with that from a facility stand point. Again, I’m all for a blind person exercising their 2A rights. But I’d also have to learn more about how to go about doing it properly.

So I got certified as an NRA instructor before getting stationed here,  so did not receive any instructions on Hawaii specific laws in the process. Since coming here,  I've read up and done my research,  and am going to start teaching soon to earn some money on the side. My only concern is I don't know how to make an affidavit,  or what they look like.  Would anyone mind perhaps sharing a template so I can get an idea?