2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: passivekinetic on August 14, 2013, 10:25:38 PM
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I have very little shotgun experience.
I fired a Saiga 12 gauge before. I don't know what the ammo load was but they were slugs.
I found the recoil "tolerable" but not loving it. Got bruises on my shoulder.
If I get one with no shoulder stock (just the pistol grip) is that totally stupid and impossible to wield?
I am not expecting to shoot it much actually. Just something to scare bad guys away with a fearsome muzzle.
(No I do not want double barreled).
It will either be pump (most likely) or semi.
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Pumping a pistol grip only isn't super easy. Gonns take practice to be able to do and return the gun quickly to point of aim
The traditional models with stocks much easier to pump and aim. Go to sports authority and try pump the pistol mossy 500
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Need a butt stock for sure...unless you just are trying to look cool. :geekdanc:
They make stocks that will take some of the recoil. You could always look for a 20 gauge or even a .410, less recoil but for HD it would do the trick!
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Agree on stock; I just wanted one that is easier to grab and move around indoors. As I said, this is home defense.
But OK, I will probably go with stock. That is what I guessed anyway, the pistol grip is for Hollywood.
Just needed to come here to double check with you guys.
Are there 12 gauge loads that have less recoil?
Since I might go with pump, that should not be a problem right? Cycling the action with less powerful loads.
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So, let me check, do you guys ALSO get bruised shoulders on a 12 gauge if the stock is not particularly comfy?
I don't recall the Saiga being comfy at all on the shoulder.
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low recoil 00 buck is available
low recoil is relative, though
it's not no recoil
a semi-auto will have less recoil than a pump
some of the kinetic energy is channeled into cycling the action
you don't get the scary sound of pumping the action, though
Agree on stock; I just wanted one that is easier to grab and move around indoors. As I said, this is home defense.
But OK, I will probably go with stock. That is what I guessed anyway, the pistol grip is for Hollywood.
Just needed to come here to double check with you guys.
Are there 12 gauge loads that have less recoil?
Since I might go with pump, that should not be a problem right? Cycling the action with less powerful loads.
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yes, pump is more reliable on low power loads than semi-auto
Agree on stock; I just wanted one that is easier to grab and move around indoors. As I said, this is home defense.
But OK, I will probably go with stock. That is what I guessed anyway, the pistol grip is for Hollywood.
Just needed to come here to double check with you guys.
Are there 12 gauge loads that have less recoil?
Since I might go with pump, that should not be a problem right? Cycling the action with less powerful loads.
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Try these loads...
Hornady Critical Defense 12 Gauge 00 Buck – Designed specifically for personal defense, these reduced recoil loads from Hornady feature eight 00 buck pellets moving at 1600 fps.
Also look into the Knoxx recoil reducing stock, that may help as well.
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Try these loads...
Hornady Critical Defense 12 Gauge 00 Buck – Designed specifically for personal defense, these reduced recoil loads from Hornady feature eight 00 buck pellets moving at 1600 fps.
Thanks man.
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you don't get the scary sound of pumping the action, though
No, I will load one in the chamber already ONCE I hear the scary sound of the BG(s) coming through the door.
:shaka:
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Definitely get one with a stock.
Go to a practical shotgun class anywhere and count now many people have shotguns with no stock.
Better yet, I'll save you $500 and tell you... Zero.
Advantage to a pump shotty is like you said, you can shoot everything out of it.
Advantage to a semi is they're faster and don't require pumping.
As far as recoil goes, they make some great recoil pads for shotguns. They absorb a whole lot of the recoil and save your shoulder from bruises.
I know a guy that bought a "youth" model for the shorter LOP so he could put a big recoil pad on it.
Shotguns take practice to shoot well just the same as any other firearm.
Don't listen to the people that say that you don't need practice and one shot will stop three bad guys.
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Definitely kk...practice shooting, practice loading (also on the move) and practice them again. For HD, your not going to get a lot of spread.
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thanks guys.
for HD, I was thinking to get a lot of choke on it to get the range and more focused spread.
but again, I hope it is scary enough to scare BGs away.
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I like the pump action...so if you rack it and the BGs are still in your house, chances are they are there to do bad things and then you will know that you will probably have to use it.
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Ok, lets dispel that myth right now.
Nobody is going to run from hearing a pump shotgun rack that wouldn't have run at the sight or sound of any other firearm.
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I like the pump action...so if you rack it and the BGs are still in your house, chances are they are there to do bad things and then you will know that you will probably have to use it.
So which pump has the loudest f*cking sound again? Just kidding. :shaka:
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Ok, lets dispel that myth right now.
Nobody is going to run from hearing a pump shotgun rack that wouldn't have run at the sight or sound of any other firearm.
Is true BUT let me ask you guys HONESTLY, which is scarier? A dude holding a thick 12 gauge barrel pointed straight at you, or a dude with a handgun, or even an AR/AK.
Just for me, purely subjectively, the shotgun seems a bit more worrisome, even though logically I know all of them are deadly (especially the rifles).
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Ok, lets dispel that myth right now.
Nobody is going to run from hearing a pump shotgun rack that wouldn't have run at the sight or sound of any other firearm.
Maybe...but I guess my point is that a shotgun is definitely louder than lets say a pistol and is easier for the BG to hear. Idk...maybe I am completely full of shit, but if I were a BG and I broke into a house and I heard that...I would definitely pop smoke.
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Is true BUT let me ask you guys HONESTLY, which is scarier? A dude holding a thick 12 gauge barrel pointed straight at you, or a dude with a handgun, or even an AR/AK.
Just for me, purely subjectively, the shotgun seems a bit more worrisome, even though logically I know all of them are deadly.
In all honesty, any firearm is just as scary to me.
A well placed shot with a 25acp can be just as deadly as a blast from a 12 gauge.
A well trained person with a 22lr can do more damage than an idiot with a 12 gauge shotgun.
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Maybe...but I guess my point is that a shotgun is definitely louder than lets say a pistol and is easier for the BG to hear. Idk...maybe I am completely full of shit, but if I were a BG and I broke into a house and I heard that...I would definitely pop smoke.
Sure as heck hope they don't drop the load IN my house. Sheesh.
They can at least have the courtesy to get the heck OUTSIDE before they drop their load.
I will be sure to chase them outside the doorway before racking again. LOL
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In all honesty, any firearm is just as scary to me.
A well placed shot with a 25acp can be just as deadly as a blast from a 12 gauge.
A well trained person with a 22lr can do more damage than an idiot with a 12 gauge shotgun.
Yes that is definitely true, the 22LR. Nothing to laugh at. Unless the damn round jams of course. Always the main thing that concerns me about 22LR for protection, otherwise it would be a great accurate round.
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Sure as heck hope they don't drop the load IN my house. Sheesh.
They can at least have the courtesy to get the heck OUTSIDE before they drop their load.
I will be sure to chase them outside the doorway before racking again. LOL
"Pick up the poop or I'll shoot"
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Is true BUT let me ask you guys HONESTLY, which is scarier? A dude holding a thick 12 gauge barrel pointed straight at you, or a dude with a handgun, or even an AR/AK.
Just for me, purely subjectively, the shotgun seems a bit more worrisome, even though logically I know all of them are deadly (especially the rifles).
I true hollywood form you gotta keep racking the action on the shotgun untill the bad guy hears. At least 2-3 times.
I dunno double barrels of justice look intimidating, but your f#ed after 2 shots. Plus the longer barrel takes practice to maneuver in hallways and entryways. Pistol in home seems easier.
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.
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Look, this is ridiculous. I don't mean to offend, although I probably have succeeded, but OP, you need to learn what it is you are talking about.
Shoot a shotgun. Or two. See what it means to fire a pistol grip 12 gauge without a shoulder stock. "Reduced recoil" means your wrist isn't broken, merely sprained. See what firing a defensive 12 gauge load feels like. Then, while the bruises are healing, ask your questions.
Come out to any shooting day sponsored by LIFE, HDA, or HRA. Coincidentally, Sunday, August 25, at the HRA fun shoot, shotguns are part of the training curriculum. You will have the opportunity to fire defensive loads through shotguns with pistol grips and shoulder grips.
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When I first started shopping for shotguns I thought I wanted one with a pistol grip cause they look pretty cool and the intended use of the gun was going to be for HD and stuff like blowing up water bottles at the range. I got rid of that idea pretty quick after researching it. I then looked into shotguns with collapsible stocks and the knoxx came up a bit, some people complained they get pinched by it on the cheek. some don't.
Ended up getting a shotgun with a regular 6 position M4 style stock, which I do like. Shooting slugs or heavy 3" loads in it can be a little punishing.
I purchased a limbsaver recoil pad for my heavy recoiling rifle and was very impressed at the difference. It completely tamed the recoil. I liked it so much that I bought one to go on the shotgun as well, it just fits right on the end of the M4 stock like any other pad. For the money I would definitely recommend the limbsaver.
Another interesting video to look at is below, he makes a good point that at the type of range you would be using a shotgun for HD it is more of a rifle
Home Defense: Double Barrel Shotgun vs AR15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKk45i9DzDA#ws)
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I've taken a defensive course that included shotguns and a couple guys tried their pump 12 gauge without the stock and just a pistol grip. Like this one:
(http://airsoft.asia/images/201204/goods_img/213_P_1333468204188.jpg)
In the class, we shot a lot of buckshot and slugs and one guy put the stock back on after a shooting just a few strings without the stock. I was able to try it as well and it's "doable" but certainly not a preferred method of employing a shotgun. Without the stock, you lose two contact points on the gun, which significantly decreases your ability to manage recoil. You can do it, but it's tough to keep the gun from jumping around all over the place.
I do like pistol grips (with stock) on defensive shotguns though. The pistol grip provides another contact point and allows you to use the grip as a lever to further help mitigate the muzzle rise/ jump.
If you're getting brusing on your shoulder, you might check that the stock is pulled tightly into your shoulder and for each shot. When shooting semi-auto, especially with the full buckshot and slug loads, many times the stock isn't fully anchored again in subsequent shots.
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I have very little shotgun experience.
I fired a Saiga 12 gauge before. I don't know what the ammo load was but they were slugs.
I found the recoil "tolerable" but not loving it. Got bruises on my shoulder.
If I get one with no shoulder stock (just the pistol grip) is that totally stupid and impossible to wield?
I am not expecting to shoot it much actually. Just something to scare bad guys away with a fearsome muzzle.
(No I do not want double barreled).
It will either be pump (most likely) or semi.
Just dont hold it up to your face and try to aim and shoot.. :thumbsup:
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get one of those knoxx recoil reducing collapsible stock with pistol grip.. it helps with the recoil...shoot birdshots for practice.
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Look, this is ridiculous. I don't mean to offend, although I probably have succeeded, but OP, you need to learn what it is you are talking about.
Shoot a shotgun. Or two. See what it means to fire a pistol grip 12 gauge without a shoulder stock. "Reduced recoil" means your wrist isn't broken, merely sprained. See what firing a defensive 12 gauge load feels like. Then, while the bruises are healing, ask your questions.
Come out to any shooting day sponsored by LIFE, HDA, or HRA. Coincidentally, Sunday, August 25, at the HRA fun shoot, shotguns are part of the training curriculum. You will have the opportunity to fire defensive loads through shotguns with pistol grips and shoulder grips.
No offense taken as none was intended. You are right, I should shoot more shotguns before deciding.
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Thanks for all the replies folks - helped me recalibrate.
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Is true BUT let me ask you guys HONESTLY, which is scarier? A dude holding a thick 12 gauge barrel pointed straight at you, or a dude with a handgun, or even an AR/AK.
Just for me, purely subjectively, the shotgun seems a bit more worrisome, even though logically I know all of them are deadly (especially the rifles).
IMHO you should re-evaluate your SD situations. If it's my life on the line I will cheat as much as I can to make sure I have every advantage. This does not include giving guys the chance to shoot me first by confronting them with an unloaded shotgun.
You want to scare guys away tell them you have called the police and they will be here soon. Do not let the bad guys know you are armed.
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IMHO you should re-evaluate your SD situations plan of action. If it's my life on the line I will cheat as much as I can to make sure I have every advantage. This does not include giving guys the chance to shoot me first by confronting them with an unloaded shotgun.
You want to scare guys away tell them you have called the police and they will be here soon. Do not let the bad guys know you are armed.
+1
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No reason to get a pistol grip only stock except for breeching or as a compact secondary weapon (pistol would be better). If you want a shotgun with tolerable recoil, try a 20 guage. Any shells in 12 guage will beat you up pretty bad after a while, even low recoil stuff. For SD, I'd prefer an AR15 over a shotgun.
Advantage for a pump shotgun:
+cheap
+powerful/accurate at short range
+multiple types of rounds
+simple to use
Disadvantage:
- low capacity
- difficult to reload
- ammunition is bulky and heavy
- high recoil
- slow rate of fire
- short range
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IMHO you should re-evaluate your SD situations. If it's my life on the line I will cheat as much as I can to make sure I have every advantage. This does not include giving guys the chance to shoot me first by confronting them with an unloaded shotgun.
You want to scare guys away tell them you have called the police and they will be here soon. Do not let the bad guys know you are armed.
Holy bad idea billy...why in the hell would you confront an intruder with an unloaded gun...ANY unloaded gun? Also if an intruder is in my house...I WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE TACTICAL ADVANTAGE! This brothers is why we train and practice!
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I think maybe there was some misunderstanding to my original post where I mentioned scaring bad guys away with the shotgun muzzle.
The intention is to scare them away so that there is no need to FIRE THE LOADED SHOTGUN.
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I think maybe there was some misunderstanding to my original post where I mentioned scaring bad guys away with the shotgun muzzle.
The intention is to scare them away so that there is no need to FIRE THE LOADED SHOTGUN.
The point we are trying to make is you don't give the bad guys a chance. You don't fire warning shots because that gets you charged because you arethe one doing the "reckless endangering." You can google it, but there are plenty of examples of people who fire warning shots are then ones who get charged not the bg.
Also what is one of the cardinal rules of firearms?..........you don't point your muzzle at anything you aren't willing to destroy. When the bg sees muzzle it should be just before they get shot.
Also if the bg sees muzzle and there is nothing chambered, if the guy knows what he's doing you have about 1.3 seconds to recognize he's pulled a firearm on you before you are getting shot. 1.5 seconds he's getting off a pretty well aimed shot. It's probably taking you at least 1/2 of that time to even recognize they might be going for their firearm. Fastest I've ever cleared and shot a target (man sized, close range.........about 5 feet) is 0.99 seconds with a Serpa holster. 0.99 seconds from the I surrender position to shooting.
IMHO you should probably take a SD class. It's pretty eye opening what can happen in that short period of time.
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OK thanks. Yes, headed to Front Sight.
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^^^Nice!!! Excellent guys. The class will also affect your choices of firearms too.
The only word of caution I would have is the state laws vary. So their SD situations and reactions may not be appropriate for Hawaii.
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Use Whatever is available when the situation arises
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OK thanks. Yes, headed to Front Sight.
When you going and which course you taking?
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When you going and which course you taking?
Aloha bro, I don't want to be posting too many travel details in the public post. Maybe PM you later; are you considering going also?
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thanks guys.
for HD, I was thinking to get a lot of choke on it to get the range and more focused spread.
but again, I hope it is scary enough to scare BGs away.
+1, your gonna get about 1 inch of spread for each yard so your still gonna have to aim. Lots of people have missed even with birdshot!
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Ok, lets dispel that myth right now.
Nobody is going to run from hearing a pump shotgun rack that wouldn't have run at the sight or sound of any other firearm.
+1, Guess what, bad guys have guns too and its a good chance they have a shotgun too.. you'r only gonna give away your position and let the bad guy know your one shell down from a maximum amount your gun can possibly hold. the only time the bad guy should be hearing you rack your slide is just after your first shot and just before the second.
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I have very little shotgun experience.
I fired a Saiga 12 gauge before. I don't know what the ammo load was but they were slugs.
I found the recoil "tolerable" but not loving it. Got bruises on my shoulder.
If I get one with no shoulder stock (just the pistol grip) is that totally stupid and impossible to wield?
I am not expecting to shoot it much actually. Just something to scare bad guys away with a fearsome muzzle.
(No I do not want double barreled).
It will either be pump (most likely) or semi.
you don't expect to shoot it much? I'd suggest you buy a gun you can practice with and have fun with rather then one you think looks bad ass cuz your gonna get yourself killed!
What you should do is to either learn how hold and shoot a shotgun properly or get some recoil reducing pads/shoulder protectors/recoil reducing stocks to help you reduce the recoil. You could also man up but that's not for everyone. Take comfort in knowing that even with the heaviest loads, when you have that much adrenalin pumping through your body when someone does break into your house to try to kill you, your not gonna feel a damn thing!
Either way, I'd suggest don't get a pistol grip and for god sakes don't try to aim down the barrel with a pistol grip if you do buy a shotgun with one (if you do, Please invite me to video tape it! I always get a great laugh as people bust open their lips and lose a few teeth which don't listen and take good advice!). Why not make some friends with someone with a pump action shotgun and try it out? You can also just buy a shotgun (Mossberg Maverick 88s cost like 200-350 bucks which is cheaper then an airsoft gun now a days or any .22lr handgun. Most sports authorities have them in stock). With prices this low and a fairly high availability of them, there is really no reason why everyone shouldn't have at least one 12 gauge pump in their home!
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The point we are trying to make is you don't give the bad guys a chance. You don't fire warning shots because that gets you charged because you arethe one doing the "reckless endangering." You can google it, but there are plenty of examples of people who fire warning shots are then ones who get charged not the bg.
+1, Zimmerman got off with no jail time after defending his life from someone which he though would take his. The woman which a warning shot into the ceiling to ward off her husband which was beating the crap out of her got a minimum sentence of 20 years in jail! Both happened in Florida at about the same time. Bottom line is that you don't fire warning shots, you fire only when there is no other recourse in order to save your life! Hide in a bathroom and barricade that door. Don't shoot until the guy is pretty much thru the door with an axe and is just about to take your life!
and for got sakes don't try to clear your house by yourself. You are not swat and even if you were, swat does not clear a house with just one person. It takes a team with fully auto weapons, bullet proof everything, and a crap load of training! Call the police, it's their job (although legally they are not really obligated to save you/protect you/ or even show up)!
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+1, Zimmerman got off with no jail time after defending his life from someone which he though would take his. The woman which a warning shot into the ceiling to ward off her husband which was beating the crap out of her got a minimum sentence of 20 years in jail! Both happened in Florida at about the same time. Bottom line is that you don't fire warning shots, you fire only when there is no other recourse in order to save your life! Hide in a bathroom and barricade that door. Don't shoot until the guy is pretty much thru the door with an axe and is just about to take your life!
and for got sakes don't try to clear your house by yourself. You are not swat and even if you were, swat does not clear a house with just one person. It takes a team with fully auto weapons, bullet proof everything, and a crap load of training! Call the police, it's their job (although legally they are not really obligated to save you/protect you/ or even show up)!
People tend to leave out a couple of details on that woman being sentenced for firing a warning shot. She LEFT the scene where the husband was a potential threat, then she RETURNED to the scene with her gun (she has a concealed carry permit) to confront the husband. That's when she fired. Once you leave the scene, and not being pursued, you are no longer in danger. She could have sought help or had someone call the police. She had no reason to return to the home with the gun and fire it. She had her two children in the house as well. The verdict was she endangered everyone in the house by discharging the gun, and there was no imminent threat to her or her children.
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^^^I was going to say the same thing. Also left out is that when she fired not only did the husband dig out, so did her kid. If the kid truly believed his life was in danger, he would have stayed with his mom.
She also invoked Stand Your Ground which you point out is irrelevant as she left and came back. Not really stand your ground.
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^^^I was going to say the same thing. Also left out is that when she fired not only did the husband dig out, so did her kid. If the kid truly believed his life was in danger, he would have stayed with his mom.
She also invoked Stand Your Ground which you point out is irrelevant as she left and came back. Not really stand your ground.
ahhh but if she shot and killed him, it would have been her word vs a dead mans word and guess who wins then? I stick with my claim, do not fire warning shots!