2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: sliver on December 09, 2013, 12:30:52 PM
-
I was wondering how many people are turning their ar15's in to pistols now that the rifle range is close? A nice 7.5 inch barrel upper and a pistol buffer tube should make for some fun for the pistol side so at least you get to use your guns rather then have them sit at home.
-
I don't think that is legal....
-
and you talk about me spreading misinformation sliver? SMH.
-
sliver just spent what few credibility points he had left in his account!
:wacko: :crazy: :wacko: :crazy: :wacko: :crazy: :wacko: :crazy: :wacko: :crazy:
-
and you talk about me spreading misinformation sliver? SMH.
DNFTT
-
OMG
-
Just remember to weld up those magazines...
-
Just remember to weld up those magazines...
you can just buy 10 round mags can't you?
I haven't seen any info about ar-15 pistols for Hawaii to be honest.
what are the laws on ar-15 and ak47 pistols for Hawaii?
-
sliver = Knudsen?
He's trying to lure us into doing something illegal and then taking pics of it!
-
Just remember to weld up those magazines...
... and the "weapon-made-from-a-rifle" tax stamp!
-
... and the "weapon-made-from-a-rifle" tax stamp!
what happens when you build it from a lower which was never regged as a rifle? the topic of these guns never came up in the pistol course I took. Figured that nfa rules for Short-barreled rifle applied to Hawaii. no stock=not a rifle.
-
what happens when you build it from a lower which was never regged as a rifle? the topic of these guns never came up in the pistol course I took.
On the mainland, it would be fine. Here in Hawaii, I wonder if how you originally registered the receiver with HPD (i.e. as a rifle or pistol) would make a difference.
-
or you could use your handguns at the pistol range. 8)
-
I haven't seen any info about ar-15 pistols for Hawaii to be honest.
what are the laws on ar-15 and ak47 pistols for Hawaii?
Check out HRS134 here: http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/ (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/)
In particular, the section pertaining to prohibited "Assault Pistols":
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code ยง921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.
-
Good info Clature, but I think Sliver was thinking of taking his not registered, completely illegal anyway gun to the range. :wacko:
what happens when you build it from a lower which was never regged as a rifle?
-
Good info Clature, but I think Sliver was thinking of taking his not registered, completely illegal anyway gun to the range. :wacko:
watch out, hound
he's gonna go off on you and explain how real life and how the internet works
and threaten to do homosexual acts upon you
once again, DNFTT
-
(http://www.portlandmercury.com/binary/91d1/1253637441-admiral_ackbar.jpg)
-
what happens when you build it from a lower which was never regged as a rifle? the topic of these guns never came up in the pistol course I took. Figured that nfa rules for Short-barreled rifle applied to Hawaii. no stock=not a rifle.
All AR-15 lowers are required to be registered upon transfer of ownership as a rifle in the same manner as a complete rifle, with the exception of lowers not at least 80% machined.
If you have "a lower which was never regged as a rifle", then you have already broken the law, again as long as it is 80% or more complete.
If you've decided to break that law, then the rest are negotiable as well, I guess.
>:D
-
I don't think that is legal....
With a fixed magazine it should be.
-
On the mainland, it would be fine. Here in Hawaii, I wonder if how you originally registered the receiver with HPD (i.e. as a rifle or pistol) would make a difference.
Well, there isn't really a definition for a rifle - only a pistol. And it only says that firearms must be registered.. If you welded the magazine to the lower and had a true fixed magazine it wouldn't be an assault pistol since there is no detachable magazine.
You can also do single shot AR-15 pistols that have a sled in them instead of a magazine.
-
With a fixed magazine it should be.
With regards to what the OP stated no it wouldn't be as I don't own lowers with a fixed magazine.
-
.
-
i have seen these mythical creatures right here at our beloved range... the mag does not release it is perminently afixed.... annnndddd gooo!
-
what happens when you build it from a lower which was never regged as a rifle? the topic of these guns never came up in the pistol course I took. Figured that nfa rules for Short-barreled rifle applied to Hawaii. no stock=not a rifle.
Oooh. Try and buld one and take it to HPD and see what they say. That should settle it for everyone :shaka:
-
i have seen these mythical creatures right here at our beloved range... the mag does not release it is perminently afixed.... annnndddd gooo!
How does one load ammo on that thing?
-
How does one load ammo on that thing?
upper tilts just like on a regular ar
then you press the rounds into the mags from the top
next time there's a dirtyl/noscade range day, you have to check it out
-
Probably the same way you load a bolt action with fixed box mags if I had to guess
-
i have seen these mythical creatures right here at our beloved range... the mag does not release it is perminently afixed.... annnndddd gooo!
That was a fun day! Even though somebody walked away with a fat lip. >:D
-
That was a fun day! Even though somebody walked away with a fat lip. >:D
it's funny to think that one range day brought us to the point we are at now
pau hanas, swap meat, hdf range days, khsc cleanup
all began with a fat lip...
-
i have seen these mythical creatures right here at our beloved range... the mag does not release it is perminently afixed.... annnndddd gooo!
So it's legal to have an ar pistol as long as the mag is welded to the lower? Does the 10rd limit still apply or is that mag in the picture blocked?
-
They aren't legal in Hawaii, you wont be able to register it, you will be denied at the counter and you will also get few more surprises while you are there.
-
Someone posted the hrs the page before. As long as it does not have 2 things on the list its legit.
-
Federal law "GCA of 68" pertain to rifle, handgun, "NFA of 32"
Once a rifle always a rifle. Definition of a "rifle" as defined by federal laws, a firearm meant to be fired from a shoulder with a shoulder stock.
A "handgun" by federal laws means a firearm meant to fired with one hand.
A stock can be added to a handgun to become a NFA SBR. Or adding a 16" barrel turns it into a title 1 rifle.
Again this is all federal laws under USC chapter 14.
Thus one cannot just place a short barrel on a rifle receiver. However one can assemble a "handgun" from an virgin receiver that never had a stock installed yes even under HRS its legal.
I personally had registered several AR "pistols" under HRS in hawaii a few years back. I can swap uppers on my ar pistols but not my rifles.
-
So it's legal to have an ar pistol as long as the mag is welded to the lower? Does the 10rd limit still apply or is that mag in the picture blocked?
10 rd limits only "detachable magazine" as defined under HRS134-8
Firearms are not limited by ammunition. Thus a firearm such as a Henry rifle has all its ammunition stored within the rifle.
Same apply to an AR with 32rds all store within the firearm itself since the ammunition device is non detachable.
-
Woah imagine welding 40 round pmags on. Lol
-
All AR-15 lowers are required to be registered upon transfer of ownership as a rifle in the same manner as a complete rifle, with the exception of lowers not at least 80% machined.
If you have "a lower which was never regged as a rifle", then you have already broken the law, again as long as it is 80% or more complete.
If you've decided to break that law, then the rest are negotiable as well, I guess.
>:D
Negative
On the 4473 there is an "other" box besides rifle or handgun.
Let your FFL know its only a receiver upon completing the 4473.
Then build it as a pistol per HRS.
I had all my handgun AR receivers clearly marked "pistol" by the manufacture. And clearly told the FFL to mark "other".
-
Someone posted the hrs the page before. As long as it does not have 2 things on the list its legit.
2 things on the list only apply if:
A semiautomatic with a detachable magazine.
Or
A barrel less than 16"
Or
Not a C&R
Bolt action , single shot , non detachable magazine, 16" barrel without stock , C&R
DO NOT APPLY
-
10 rd limits only "detachable magazine" as defined under HRS134-8
Firearms are not limited by ammunition. Thus a firearm such as a Henry rifle has all its ammunition stored within the rifle.
Same apply to an AR with 32rds all store within the firearm itself since the ammunition device is non detachable.
Ahhh I see. Thanks for the clarification. :shaka:
-
Oooh. Try and buld one and take it to HPD and see what they say. That should settle it for everyone :shaka:
Built several , no problems at HPD.
-
So I can weld a 30 round mag to my lower and build a 30 round pistol ?
When I register lowers, they aren't classified as pistol or longarm, just lowers. ( longarm permit though )
Wouldn't I need to get a pistol permit for it ? ( i.e. specify serial number, barrel length, make, model etc... )
I would think you need to buy it with a welded mag and pistol upper and go through the premitting process for a pistol.
Can I register it without a pistol permit ? ( longarm permit only )
-
So I can weld a 30 round mag to my lower and build a 30 round pistol ?
When I register lowers, they aren't classified as pistol or longarm, just lowers. ( longarm permit though )
Wouldn't I need to get a pistol permit for it ? ( i.e. specify serial number, barrel length, make, model etc... )
I would think you need to buy it with a welded mag and pistol upper and go through the premitting process for a pistol.
Can I register it without a pistol permit ? ( longarm permit only )
Yes, you can weld up the mag and lower, however use aluminum mags as steel mag do not weld up to aluminum lowers.
When you register the receiver, HPD will note on the registration a "receiver only". However , you'd need to wait the 14 days as a pistol permit. The FFL must also file it as a receiver when they get it from the manufacture and report to HPD as a receiver. Make certain the FFL never marks it as a rifle on the 4473.
You can register your receiver first and then assemble it as a pistol at a later date.
No, you'd need a pistol permit for any type of pistol transaction.
-
When you register the receiver, HPD will note on the registration a "receiver only". However , you'd need to wait the 14 days as a pistol permit. The FFL must also file it as a receiver when they get it from the manufacture and report to HPD as a receiver. Make certain the FFL never marks it as a rifle on the 4473.
Nope that is wrong.
If a AR receiver comes in as a pistol it is marked "Pistol"
It must leave the manufacturer as a Pistol Lower Receiver. It must be set up as a single shot with a blocked magwell or have pinned in a magazine that can hold no more than 10 rounds. If you try to snake one past HPD they will come down on you very hard.
They may also hold the completed firearm and have the ATF come down to HPD and check it out to make sure it is legal.
-
.
-
Sped
Any receiver leaving the manufacture are virgin receivers. Marking are not required for handguns or rifles per BATF under USC chpt 14.
Only the assembler or SOT will determine its fate upon first assembly.
This is per federal laws.
-
They may also hold the completed firearm and have the ATF come down to HPD and check it out to make sure it is legal.
Had that happen to me before. Waited 2 hours at HPD for the local ATF to come down.
3 agents shows up and checked my home built parts kit. Took the gun apart and started counting 922 parts too.
I knew all the laws and regs both federal and state. Answered all the questions correctly, registered my home build and out the door in 15min.
-
I talked with Aldo (ATF) and Suzie (HPD) about this. So that is where I stand on this.
You should contact them directly and get the wording from them.
-
HRS134-8 specifically states "detachable magazines".
Without a reasonable doubt a permanent magazine is non-detachable and 134-8 does not apply.
I have spoken to a bar lawyer about the wording and can state going to court if charges are pressed.
It would be a case law in the books if it went to trail.
My lawyer and I have determined it would likely be dismissed rather than having a case law.
-
So in the end, no, no one is turning their ARs into pistols now that the range is closed.
-
So in the end, no, no one is turning their ARs into pistols now that the range is closed.
Yep, unless u want to build one now that the rifle side is closed.
-
Yep, unless u want to build one now that the rifle side is closed.
By the time the holidays are over, you obtain all the parts, wait two weeks to register it, and assemble it, the rifle range will be open again.
:thumbsup:
-
So you all telling me that you wouldn't want one of these whether or not the rifle side is open or closed? Put a red dot on it and you can shoot it on the rifle side. :shake:
-
Built several , no problems at HPD.
How about some photos?
-
So you all telling me that you wouldn't want one of these whether or not the rifle side is open or closed? Put a red dot on it and you can shoot it on the rifle side. :shake:
Suka has done some cool conversions for sure. Impractical for most I think? For thrills I would go bullseye pistol instead, TC's or XP100 especially the latter as they are getting more rare and collectible. (anyone got one in .223 LMK now :) ). If you really want an assault pistol or sbr just going have to move.
-
How about some photos?
from suka's post on another tread
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af82/jonlagon72/266973e4-b2b7-47eb-b2f0-3cc526526020_zps29646226.jpg) (http://s996.photobucket.com/user/jonlagon72/media/266973e4-b2b7-47eb-b2f0-3cc526526020_zps29646226.jpg.html)
-
I think he was talking about photos of Hawaii registration for these pistols.
-
Here's a sample of a welded 30rd magazine.
It weighs 50.1 ozs without the mag.
Thinking of taking off the welds and put her on a diet to 49.5 ozs.
Losing the extra oz allows it to have a semiautomatic with detachable magazines.
But now need to block mags to 10rds .
-
So in the end, no, no one is turning their ARs into pistols now that the range is closed.
I guess not. Didn't know the rules for ar pistols in Hawaii but its good to have a better idea of what it takes to stay legal now.
It's not like I'm the only one which didn't know the rules.
-
sliver = Knudsen?
He's trying to lure us into doing something illegal and then taking pics of it!
who the hell said you should do something illegal? I asked if anyone was doing the conversion (I didn't know the rules here for it and figured it would be the same as the mainland) and apparently its not legal to do so, so apparently nobody is. Now at least people which were thinking about doing so know that its something which should not be done and it can save them from getting into a crap load of trouble. When you read though this thread, it seems a lot of people which have experience with the law (gun shop owners/teachers/builders) have opposing views and its nice to see someone which has actually made a few pistols and has gone thru the process which can help shed some light on what is legal and what is not. :thumbsup:
-
Here's a sample of a welded 30rd magazine.
It weighs 50.1 ozs without the mag.
Thinking of taking off the welds and put her on a diet to 49.5 ozs.
Losing the extra oz allows it to have a semiautomatic with detachable magazines.
But now need to block mags to 10rds .
Nice. Is that the mpa mini 9mm?
-
They may also hold the completed firearm and have the ATF come down to HPD and check it out to make sure it is legal.
I wish I would have known that while I was there. I would have slammed the shit out of that rule. You don't get to hold my property - no freaking way.
-
Yeap,
Advertised unloaded as 50oz , comes with non threaded barrels and 30 rd magazines.
Mags needs blocked if imported to Kawaii.
-
from suka's post on another tread
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af82/jonlagon72/266973e4-b2b7-47eb-b2f0-3cc526526020_zps29646226.jpg) (http://s996.photobucket.com/user/jonlagon72/media/266973e4-b2b7-47eb-b2f0-3cc526526020_zps29646226.jpg.html)
Sweet!
-
If anybody is still interested, I registered two Aero Precision AR lowers today and asked about registering lowers as pistols. The guy at the window had "the boss" lady talk to me. She told me Aero Precision lowers cannot be registered as a pistol because they offer only "rifle lowers". I would have to order an AR pistol lower like what SpeedTek said. She knew that the lowers for pistols and rifles are identical. If I did order a pistol lower, I would have the gun shop do the paper work as if I was buying a handgun, apply for the permit to acquire, wait the 14 days, pick up the permit and so on. I was waiting for her to tell me that assault pistols are illegal in Hawaii but she never did.
-
I was waiting for her to tell me that assault pistols are illegal in Hawaii but she never did.
My guess is enough people are building and registering them to be very common nowadays.
-
Went to HPD today. Last week I was told that to register an AR lower as a pistol I had to get a pistol lower. I found this ATF letter on AR15.com and took it to the window and they had the boss review it. The officer at the window then told me ,okay, I can register any newly purchased AR lower as a pistol as long as it was never registered as a rifle. As in my last post the paper work from the gun shop and the registration process would be the same as acquiring a handgun. So suka is correct. Does the mag have to be attached by a gunsmith or can I weld it myself? I am a very qualified welder.
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4001/batfeletterarpistols1.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4001/batfeletterarpistols1.jpg)
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2101/batfeletterarpistols2.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2101/batfeletterarpistols2.jpg)
-
You can do it yourself.
I have figured out a way to load the mags without breaking the upper.
Pulling out the rear take down pin will wear out the hole.
Attach a rod to the follower, cut a hole in the mag.
Pull rod and drop in the rounds.
-
Not sure if it was mentioned before but could we use a device similar to the California bullet button so that we don't have to break the upper to load the magazine. Or is hawaiis wording different than California in regard to the magazine release?
-
The bullet button is CA DOJ approved with the use of a tool. They have a window to submit such innovations.
In interpreting HRS the term detachable , is the issue.
The bullet button still would allow the magazine to be remove, rendering the magazine able to be detached.
Same as a 14.5 barrel with extension, a set screw does not comply with a permenant 16" barrel.
-
Not sure if it was mentioned before but could we use a device similar to the California bullet button so that we don't have to break the upper to load the magazine. Or is hawaiis wording different than California in regard to the magazine release?
The bullet buttons, non-detachableness, comes from a California court case where the CA Dept. Of Justice basically said that it counted. They later tried to take it back, but the government can't do that. We don't have such a case; there is also some concern with requesting an opinion from the State attorney general, which is an option that I considered back in 2010. We would have had a Senator request it, which would have required that the AG provide a response and definition that could be relied upon.
-
I like see a picture of someone's hawaii registration paperwork for these pistols.
-
A buddy of mine in Alaska has an ar pistol that he is actually looking to sell and I am headed up there for Christmas. It was originally purchased as an ar pistol. Would I be able to buy that, bring it home, have the magazine welded and register it as an out of state firearm?
-
A buddy of mine in Alaska has an ar pistol that he is actually looking to sell and I am headed up there for Christmas. It was originally purchased as an ar pistol. Would I be able to buy that, bring it home, have the magazine welded and register it as an out of state firearm?
Two problems you're going to face here.
First off, you won't be able to make the purchase face-to-face as a resident of Hawaii. It'll have to go through an FFL.
Secondly, you'll need to have it welded before it comes into your possession.
-
I like see a picture of someone's hawaii registration paperwork for these pistols.
It seems that you don't believe that this can be done. There is nothing different here. Fixed is fixed.
-
Alaska does not have any laws against firearms transfers to anyone except the usual felons, prohibited persons etc....
Or federally under 18 USC 922
Thus, your friend can transfer it to you in AK and then fly it back.
However, it must be welded before it gets into hawaii.
-
Anyone build a pistol from an 80% lower?
-
Soon!
8 Rocket Hub unfinished billet lowers ordered at $25 each.
Plus 3 forged lowers 0% from DSA.
-
I just thought of this. I ordered two stripped non anodized AR lowers which I plan to weld the magazines in. I will be going through the process and registering these as pistols lowers. While I posses these stripped lowers before the magazines are permanently attached, if I have any "high capacity mags", will I be guilty of a misdemeanor and if I insert a "high capacity mag" will it be a felony even if it's a stripped lower but registered as a pistol? I know this is getting into technicalities but I don't want to take any chances with my rights to own firearms. There's probably no definite answers but I want to hear opinions. Like I said, I don't want to take any chances with my rights to own fire arms and I would and scratch my plans if there's a chance I would be commiting a felony.
-
A mag body without a follower and floor plate holds zero rounds.