2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: tonsofguns on February 23, 2011, 09:54:32 PM
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You folks sell 10/22 drums?
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Yes!!!!!!!!! Now I do not have to surf AR15.com anymore. OGC ROCKS!
Don't make me pm System_Message or Aimless... :thumbsup:
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You folks sell 10/22 drums?
Sad it is pointless to have these types of things here, sucks all of our magazines over 10 rounds are illegal. =/
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You folks sell 10/22 drums?
Sad it is pointless to have these types of things here, sucks all of our magazines over 10 rounds are illegal. =/
:wtf: Since when?
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You folks sell 10/22 drums?
Sad it is pointless to have these types of things here, sucks all of our magazines over 10 rounds are illegal. =/
:wtf: Since when?
Probably since the law was ever first enacted. The important part is "capable of use in", which encompasses pretty much any magazine made.
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^^ Well, actually it doesn't.
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^^ Well, actually it doesn't.
How so? The language is clear, it doesn't say "a pistol, which is able to be legally possessed, in the state of Hawaii." Lets take a look.
What is a pistol?
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.
So -- what does this mean in the states eyes. Rifles with barrels less then 16 inches ... pistol (Even though they are known as SBR, the states language says PISTOL). Shotgun less then 16" , pistol for the state. (Don't forget flare guns).
AR-15 has a pistol variant. AK 47, has a pistol variant, .22 LR magazines, almost all can fit into some sort of "pistol".
Lets take a look at magazine restrictions.
The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.
So what is capable?
Having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing. In this instance, that achieve a specified thing is the ability to be inserted into, "any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas."
Arguments that firearms that accept these magazines are prohibited, and therefore we could have them, fall shorts of the law, don't accept that. Don't believe me? Go consult an attorney. I strongly wager that you and your attorney after careful review of the law will come to the same conclusion. In fact, I'm almost certain this is already the conclusion the attorney general has come to. '
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I'm not sure where the confusion is. "Capable of use in" is the killer blanket statement, as FT pointed out. That's kind of like claiming the Constitution is "confusing". No it's not. You just have to read it and stop trying to twist any part of it into something you agree with personally. The RIGHT. Of. THE PEOPLE. To. KEEP. And. BEAR. ARMS. Shall not. Be. INFRINGED. It's plain freaking english but people with agendas will try to convince others it's confusing. But, no one's done that here so I'm going waaaay off topic and on a rant sorry lol.
My question is: Does the Ruger 10/22 have a pistol variant or are it's magazines capable of use in any other pistol? If not then the Ruger 10/22 drum is no problem.
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Id have to look at the magazine, but how about the charger?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Charger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Charger)
Wiki on ruger 10/22
22 Charger pistol
The 22 Charger pistol, introduced in late 2007, is a handgun based on the 10/22 action. The 22 Charger comes with a black laminated wood pistol stock with forend, a 10" (254 mm) matte blued heavy barrel, a bipod, and a Weaver style scope base in lieu of iron sights. Overall length is just under 20" (508 mm), making it quite large for a handgun. As it has an included bipod it is likely to be used from a shooting bench or table. The bipod attaches to a sling swivel on the stock fore-end, and is easily removable. Due to technical features, the Charger is not legally available in all U.S. states. [7][8]
It IS a variant of the Ruger 10/22. Darn. Though the charger is illegal in Hawaii, same shit as the AR, the 10/22 drum is hereby declared illegal in Hawaii by wiki article. lol.
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Although the drums are 'illeagal' I have seen places sell them, and I have seen people use them.
I even saw places selling the chager pistol. :o
Seems HPD firearms section needs to come out with some sort of list for people to follow, since ignorance to a law is no excuse. However, how can you follow the law when so many things are filled with doubt and questions?
That is how folks get into trouble!! >:(
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Word for word, 30+ round AR magazines are "illegal" as well, however poorly-thought-out it is - i.e. AR pistol variants are illegal in the first place. Yet they're still sold in most gun shops here. Same thing with the Ruger 10/22.
My thoughts: it's a refusal to address the issue that results in a lack of enforcement. If they start actually taking responsibility and administering citations for posession of magazines with greater than 10 round capacity that is capable of use in a pistol, it would wake up the sleeping giant. No one likes getting their shit taken away or being fined for it.
What they should have done is reinforce it from day 1. Reconfirm to gun owners that these magazines are illegal, despite not being able to own these pistols it is capable of fitting in. They probably let it slide so it can quickly fall off the radar. They wanted to secure their inch they won and not make it a huge debate afterwards. But hey I wasn't alive at the time of the ban so blah that's just behavioral speculation.
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You guys think its a good idea to push this subject at this time?
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It's most likely an inevitable subject and probably ride on the expected wave the new reciprocity bill will bring forth. Once that bill is passed, states have 90 days to get their shit in order to accomodate it. Hawaii will most likely take grief in that it's a FELONY to have a magazine of greater than 10 rounds capacity inserted to any pistol. Most mainlanders will have to go waaaaay out of their way to find and spend extra money to buy uncommon specially manufactured magazines with catered capacities rather than their common factory standard-capacity magazines they've been using for years.
Its most likely going to be a hot topic. But only if we make it a hot topic. It can go either way. They concede, or say too bad and clamp down harder. If we do nothing, nothing will change.
Let's make sure the citizen wins.
Visitors would have to create an extra space on their shelf labeled "Communist-friendly magazines" in case they travel to such states. :rofl:
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You guys think its a good idea to push this subject at this time?
We want our firearm owners to be informed of the law, and not to get in trouble. Some people don't listen or dream up some counter argument. This stuff is already on the AG's radar. Wait till different organizations start kicking dirt in their face and they will probably begin to enforce some of it. Again, we just want the public to be informed -- and know the LAW as it is written. How much do you want to bet if they caught you with and charged you with a "high-capacity" magazine, that you are going to have a hell of a time getting your guns back.
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What about those Saiga 20-round drums?
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What about those Saiga 20-round drums?
http://www.alliancearmament.com/acceleratorpistol-1.aspx (http://www.alliancearmament.com/acceleratorpistol-1.aspx)
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=28428 (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=28428)
Seems some companies manufacture short barrel shotguns, or shotgun pistols. My bet? They are banned too. Just saying :wave:
I really think this stuff is dumb, and I don't believe that it was the spirit of the law, which is supposed to matter. When dealing with our court systems, and their high levels of in-justice, I wouldn't leave much to chance.
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Heavies: which places? I know for sure SA has the 25 rounders.
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Heavies: which places? I know for sure SA has the 25 rounders.
Sorry Tons,
I'd rather not say, don't want to get anyone in trouble... for something that they thought was OK. ;D
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:crazy: Well I guess I'll just have to visit every store on the island then!!!
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^ Just PM him.
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That would work too :D
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^^ Well, actually it doesn't.
How so? The language is clear, it doesn't say "a pistol, which is able to be legally possessed, in the state of Hawaii." Lets take a look.
What is a pistol?
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.
So -- what does this mean in the states eyes. Rifles with barrels less then 16 inches ... pistol (Even though they are known as SBR, the states language says PISTOL). Shotgun less then 16" , pistol for the state. (Don't forget flare guns).
AR-15 has a pistol variant. AK 47, has a pistol variant, .22 LR magazines, almost all can fit into some sort of "pistol".
Lets take a look at magazine restrictions.
The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.
So what is capable?
Having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing. In this instance, that achieve a specified thing is the ability to be inserted into, "any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas."
Arguments that firearms that accept these magazines are prohibited, and therefore we could have them, fall shorts of the law, don't accept that. Don't believe me? Go consult an attorney. I strongly wager that you and your attorney after careful review of the law will come to the same conclusion. In fact, I'm almost certain this is already the conclusion the attorney general has come to. '
This is what they would call in the law an admission against interest (assuming you are pro-gun) BTAIM I reject your definition of pistol, and in fact all of the above as prattle, with the added thought that I find your self-destructive. officiousness baffling
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Moved this from OGC's vendor area, didn't feel like it was the best place there. We can talk about it all here.
What you call prattle -- I call understanding of the law. We (The Hawaii Defense Foundation) have already had multiple attorneys look at this law. Feel free to ask the Hawaii Rifle Association their interpretation. I am certainly not the only person with this belief or interpretation.
If I really cared enough, I would contact the AG myself -- but I am not trying to screw people over. People have noticed that once you start kicking dirt in court, some laws tend to get enforced. Feel free to take you, and your 30 round loaded magazines, all around kokohead and town! I personally will not be utilizing >10 round magazine capacity. That is what the legal team I am working with have advised me to do.
You act like we are trying to sabotage you by passing on the legal advice we obtained. I mean honestly, get real. I don't care if you reject 'my' definition of a firearm. That definition came straight from the Hawaii Statutes. Feel free to provide us with your own definition of a "pistol".
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Well if it helps any I found those drums...and I bought one too!!
I'm not telling where because I wanna be able to go back and get more!!!
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Not too long ago MPPL circulated an opinion from a Hawaii Deputy AG who basically said that magazines exceeding 10 rounds were illegal. His interpretation of the law was consistent with what Funtimes has said in that ANY magazine CAPABLE of being used in a pistol cannot exceed 10 rounds. Additionally, I know of at least two instances that occured at KHSC where a LEO asked about the capacity of a rifle magazine, indicating that it could not exceed 10 rounds (rifle was an AR platform).
Here's a little mental exercise: Look at HRS 134-59 regarding butterfly knives. They are illegal and the wording of the statue is very clear on that point, offering no real room for debate such as is occuring regarding magazine capacity. Now, knowing that butterfly knives are expressly illegal, ask yourself if you have seen them for sale at any location in Hawaii. Most likely you'll say yes, but if not, I can assure you that they are for sale at various locations. So, how are they being sold if they are illegal? So, how can larger capaciy magazines be sold if they are illegal?
As for the definition of "pistol" Funtimes is entirely correct. If you doubt that, then as previously suggested, take your >10 round magazine down to HPD inserted into your firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches, and see what happens..........let us know what happens.
I think most would agree, it's a stupid law, but it is the law.
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HPD seems quite strict. I do remember when I registered an HK91 that had 4 twenty round magazines and 2 thirty round mags. None of the clerks seemed to worry about the magazines; they even joked "Wow, sure you don't need any more mags?". Does this mean they didn't know? Of course not, I actually asked them about the hi-cap law and they acknowledged that the law is vaguely interpreted. These clerks know the laws, I was at the station waiting in line to register another firearm and a fellow who moved from the mainland had one of his pistols confiscated because it had a hi-cap magazine.
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HPD seems quite strict. I do remember when I registered an HK91 that had 4 twenty round magazines and 2 thirty round mags. None of the clerks seemed to worry about the magazines; they even joked "Wow, sure you don't need any more mags?". Does this mean they didn't know? Of course not, I actually asked them about the hi-cap law and they acknowledged that the law is vaguely interpreted. These clerks know the laws, I was at the station waiting in line to register another firearm and a fellow who moved from the mainland had one of his pistols confiscated because it had a hi-cap magazine.
The question is -- what legal attorney has "vaguely" interpreted it? I mean thats th ekey right there. It doesn't matter what jo-schmo thinks. It matters what the AG and lawyers think. Interpreting laws and providing legal advice is after all, what they get paid and licensed to do!
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HPD seems quite strict. I do remember when I registered an HK91 that had 4 twenty round magazines and 2 thirty round mags. None of the clerks seemed to worry about the magazines; they even joked "Wow, sure you don't need any more mags?". Does this mean they didn't know? Of course not, I actually asked them about the hi-cap law and they acknowledged that the law is vaguely interpreted. These clerks know the laws, I was at the station waiting in line to register another firearm and a fellow who moved from the mainland had one of his pistols confiscated because it had a hi-cap magazine.
The question is -- what legal attorney has "vaguely" interpreted it? I mean thats th ekey right there. It doesn't matter what jo-schmo thinks. It matters what the AG and lawyers think. Interpreting laws and providing legal advice is after all, what they get paid and licensed to do!
*knock on wood that I hope this doesn't happen but...*
The high capacity law in Hawaii would only really be put to the test of enforcement if something like the Arizona shooting occurred. All it would take is one nut job with a AK or AR using a 30 round mag to put this law into the legal court of interpretation.
One of the Hunter Education Program instructors here on Maui is actually a lawyer and I'm certain he knows about the legal fog that surrounds the hi cap law. Yes it would be safer to do range shooting with 10 round mags to avoid any hassles.
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The only concern we have is we start suing the state, they get upset and start "enforcing" laws. That is one of the reasons we are bringing it up to gun owners. It won't be to long from now and we will be kicking sand at the lion.
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The only concern we have is we start suing the state, they get upset and start "enforcing" laws. That is one of the reasons we are bringing it up to gun owners. It won't be to long from now and we will be kicking sand at the lion.
Good point on that one. I hadn't considered that the enforcing of laws would be a counterattack in our attempts to circumvent others.
Initially when I was old enough to get my firearms permits I was told of the high capacity law and thought I was delegated to having bolt action and mil-surp WWII rifles as my only source of firearms. To the point though, I'm all for following the laws and helping secure more 2nd Amendment rights for gun owners in Hawaii but behind California and New York we're one of the most liberal, anti-gun states in the union. Believe me I hate sounding and thinking like a defeatist, I follow the laws, I exercised my rights to apply for a CCW knowing full well I would be denied and I help educate potential gun buyers on what is legal and isn't in Hawaii but it feels like a battle we can't win if the elected officials and police chiefs that are in office are anti-gun.
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but behind California and New York we're one of the most liberal, anti-gun states in the union. Believe me I hate sounding and thinking like a defeatist, I follow the laws, I exercised my rights to apply for a CCW knowing full well I would be denied and I help educate potential gun buyers on what is legal and isn't in Hawaii but it feels like a battle we can't win if the elected officials and police chiefs that are in office are anti-gun.
In some ways we are behind Cali. But you make a good point about the elected officials, and that is why many people believe the legal route is the way to go when it comes to securing our 2nd Amendment rights.
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Google, state vs albert batalona...he or they were never charged with the use of 30 round magazines in the bank robbery that took place in kahala.
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Google, state vs albert batalona...he or they were never charged with the use of 30 round magazines in the bank robbery that took place in kahala.
Sometimes a charge isn't worth litigating over in court, especially when you have some slam dunks. I imagine if he drove a getaway car that he committed some reckless driving etc - probably wasn't prosecuted for that either.
Its a misdemeanor offense at that. If it had been in a pistol, however, you could possibly bet on them prosecuting that.
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I know this is a relatively dead post, sorry. I received an email copy of that statement sent to mppl by the AG's office. If I recall, since I can't find it anymore, that the email was not very firm. I think it said that the AG's office would not say exactly what is the law. Maybe too little precedence? They, the ag's office' said however that in their opinion that the "high capacity" magazines are not legal. I am almost sure they never used the word illegal. The kicker was, while the question/issue was addressed to the ag, the response someone from his staff replied and signed. No idea if the person was a lawyer but any type of endorsement by the ag was absent. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what I'm reading. Really wish I could find it. Wonder if Keith from mppl would still have a copy available. Again, sorry to revive a dead post. Also, sorry the info is heresayish since I don't have that email. Just some stuff that stuck out when we got the letter. Maybe someone has it and can post it and then have someone better qualified interpret it.
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We have already had numerous (6+ lawyers) interpret the law. Not sure what more people would want.
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There's nothing to interpret. It says what it says, and one can wish and hope that the AG would somehow read it as being less oppressive than it is, but as long as that language remains, you're one change of opinion away from being a criminal.
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@Funtimes... i noticed in the HDF pics and videos of the fun shoot that 30rnd ar mags are being used.
If i join HDF and come out to the fun shoots can i bring/ use my 30rnd mags(" if i had any") or only 10 rnd mags.
thanks...looking forward to the next shoot either way.
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@Funtimes... i noticed in the HDF pics and videos of the fun shoot that 30rnd ar mags are being used.
If i join HDF and come out to the fun shoots can i bring/ use my 30rnd mags(" if i had any") or only 10 rnd mags.
thanks...looking forward to the next shoot either way.
Consult an attorney :). I can't give you legal advice.
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Consult an attorney :). I can't give you legal advice.
I wasn't asking for legal advice, just wasn't sure if HDF had any rules regarding mag use during a HDF sponsored event. I didn't want to break any club rules.
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True you not asking for legal advice, but since he is the big man in charge. If he was to give you a specific answer and you get into trouble and say the big man told you so, the responsibility would fall back onto the big man in charge.
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True you not asking for legal advice, but since he is the big man in charge. If he was to give you a specific answer and you get into trouble and say the big man told you so, the responsibility would fall back onto the big man in charge.
I recommend showing up and doing your thing, we will let you know if you are doing something outside the statutes. Please note that I am a mere member and do not set HDF policy.
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I wasn't asking for legal advice, just wasn't sure if HDF had any rules regarding mag use during a HDF sponsored event. I didn't want to break any club rules.
Whether you choose to carry a magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds is a Hawaii state law issue, not a private club issue.
The best advice you could follow is to "consult an attorney."
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Me telling you what is or is not acceptable, especially in the context of this thread, could most certainly be construed as legal advice (at least I believe so). My only request is that you comply with state laws. I however, can't tell you exactly what the State law is on this, so it's up to you and your attorney or other legal source to identify that information. You can view this photo book and see what people did at one of our last shoots though.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hidefensefdn/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hidefensefdn/)
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Me telling you what is or is not acceptable, especially in the context of this thread, could most certainly be construed as legal advice (at least I believe so). My only request is that you comply with state laws. I however, can't tell you exactly what the State law is on this, so it's up to you and your attorney or other legal source to identify that information. You can view this photo book and see what people did at one of our last shoots though.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hidefensefdn/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hidefensefdn/)
cool pics!
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Me telling you what is or is not acceptable, especially in the context of this thread, could most certainly be construed as legal advice (at least I believe so). My only request is that you comply with state laws. I however, can't tell you exactly what the State law is on this, so it's up to you and your attorney or other legal source to identify that information. You can view this photo book and see what people did at one of our last shoots though.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hidefensefdn/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hidefensefdn/)
Who is the guy in pics 46-52? I'm pretty sure I met him this past Sunday.
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Who is the guy in pics 46-52? I'm pretty sure I met him this past Sunday.
That's one of HDF's directors. His name is Alex.
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That's one of HDF's directors. His name is Alex.
OK, I did meet him yesterday. He can shoot, but was a bit undergunned trying to go for those long range targets at KR-3.