2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: dogman on February 04, 2014, 08:12:07 PM
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I just completed registering three Aero Precision lower receivers as pistol receivers. These are NOT special pistol marked receivers. I ordered two non anodized lowers directly from Aero Precision, and purchased one anodized receiver from Kaneohe Gun Shop's stock since Daniel was the FFL handling the transaction. I submitted the attached ATF letter, filled out the applications to acquire, then waited about 90 minutes while calls were made to Daniel and the ATF. They had to verify with Daniel that the lowers were never called rifles on any paper work. I'm not sure what they discussed with the ATF. The guy at the window told me if I don't hear from them with problems, then they will see me in two weeks. Well the two weeks went by, I picked up the permits, picked up the lowers and registered them today. I would hope this will make it easier for others to do the same. Since I did register one lower purchased from local stock, that should demonstrate any receiver can be registered as a pistol receiver as long as it was never registered as a rifle.
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Way to go!
Told ya , no problems registering lowers as pistols.
They call the ATF if they have a "iffy" item not covered in HRS. Federal laws are much more relaxed.
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Good to know. Thnx
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Thanks for the info on the registration hope to see some completed hardware soon :thumbsup: and thanks for the shout out on the other terminology :shaka:
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What is legal barrel length for these pistols? Or can it be anything since its not an assault pistol anymore.
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Barrel length does not matter because its not a definition of an assault pistol.
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Sick!!! Thanks.
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Thanks for posting. BTW, that letter is old. There should a newer letter that will state that you can go from a pistol to a rifle, and back again.
ETA: Attached ATF Ruling 2011-4. Firearms starting as a pistol can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol, but not the other way around.
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Thanks for posting. BTW, that letter is old. There should a newer letter that will state that you can go from a pistol to a rifle, and back again.
ETA: Attached ATF Ruling 2011-4. Firearms starting as a pistol can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol, but not the other way around.
Way to much to read now.
Let me read it and post a response.
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One more question. Do you have to apply for a pistol permit for this, or can you purchase the lower then register it as a pistol. Sounds like you need a pistol permit from your post. Just clarifying
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One more question. Do you have to apply for a pistol permit for this, or can you purchase the lower then register it as a pistol. Sounds like you need a pistol permit from your post. Just clarifying
Same procedure as buying a handgun. Three visits to HPD with a two week waiting period in between.
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You were able to register the lower as a pistol without having the magazine already permanently attached for them to see? I asked the guys at the window last week about this very thing and they told me "couldn't hurt to try" my intent tho is to mill out an 80% lower and permanently attach a magazine prior to ever going down to hpd to avoid needing a specially marked lower.
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Also, at kgs, Daniel didn't give you a hard time about buying a lower reciever without showing your long gun license but showing your handgun affidavit? I think I'll go down to kgs today and purchase a stripped lower. Also, how do you intend to purchase a complete pistol length upper. I don't think many of the online places that generally sell uppers like psa and jse will ship one because they don't understand this loophole we have here.
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12" PSA Upper on sale today :)
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-chf-12-5-56mm-1-7-a2-profile-upper.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-chf-12-5-56mm-1-7-a2-profile-upper.html)
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I don't think they will ship that item to Hawaii. When you go through the checkout process they have a list of states they can not shop certain items to. I tried to order 30 round ar magazines from them and they wouldn't ship them. They even charged me a restocking fee when they refunded after they didn't send them.
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Just left kgs. Have a declared ar pistol lower on the way.
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Just got my permit to acquire from hpd without issue. In and out in 10 mins.
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Same procedure as buying a handgun. Three visits to HPD with a two week waiting period in between.
If I have a stripped receiver that I already registered at HPD can I turn it into a pistol?
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yes, as long as the receiver never had a stock installed.
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yes, as long as the receiver never had a stock installed.
I'm not sure if that is the way that it works. The reason I think that is because I couldn't just buy a stripped lower off of Daniels shelf because they were already declared rifles at hpd. Daniel had to bring in a serialized lower that had never been declared to hpd and then declare it a pistol lower.
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the FFL just call and fax in a form to HPD to register their incoming firearms.
Unless KGS specifically specified the receivers as long guns they are just receivers. :crazy: confusing eh!
For nearly all other States that does not require registrations, the ATF uses the simple term , did it have a stock on ?
ATF simple fact sheet:
Once a rifle always a rifle. (sbr)
Once a MG always a MG.
Pistols can be rifle.
Once a rifle, always a rifle.
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If I have a stripped receiver that I already registered at HPD can I turn it into a pistol?
Currently HPD will not allow that, I asked them. I sent BATF a letter requesting clarification of "if an individual utilizes a receiver that has never been assembled as a rifle action, he may lawfully assemble a semiautomatic pistol". I specifically asked them if this would apply even if the receiver was previously registered as a rifle but never assembled. I used the example of local gun shop inventory that may have been registered locally as a rifle and is for sale as a stripped lower receiver. I figure it's best to show documentation rather than to try and debate the issue with HPD. I understand I may not have a reply for a couple of months but their website says all letters will receive a response. They do not respond to emails.
Before I submitted the letter posted at the beginning of this topic, HPD told me I could not register Aero Precision lower receivers as pistols because they only make rifle lowers.
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the FFL just call and fax in a form to HPD to register their incoming firearms.
Unless KGS specifically specified the receivers as long guns they are just receivers. :crazy: confusing eh!
For nearly all other States that does not require registrations, the ATF uses the simple term , did it have a stock on ?
ATF simple fact sheet:
Once a rifle always a rifle. (sbr)
Once a MG always a MG.
Pistols can be rifle.
Once a rifle, always a rifle.
just checked all my hpd registrations and all pistols registrations are labeled "pistol" and all rifles are labeled "rifles" but all of the stripped receivers are labeled "receiver" and does not state pistol or rifle. I know I used my long gun permit to obtain the receivers but shouldn't it be labeled "rifle receiver" on the registration to make it clear it is not a pistol?
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just checked all my hpd registrations and all pistols registrations are labeled "pistol" and all rifles are labeled "rifles" but all of the stripped receivers are labeled "receiver" and does not state pistol or rifle. I know I used my long gun permit to obtain the receivers but shouldn't it be labeled "rifle receiver" on the registration to make it clear it is not a pistol?
I asked them about that also. They said it's noted on their records when it's a pistol.
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I asked them about that also. They said it's noted on their records when it's a pistol.
doesn't the ATF classify AR lower receivers as "Other" on the 4473 - so does HPD require the local FFL to state rifle when reporting to HPD?
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I know Daniel at KGS checks "other" on the 4473 for AR lower receivers, I don't know what happens after that.
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I know Daniel at KGS checks "other" on the 4473 for AR lower receivers, I don't know what happens after that.
if its others on the 4473, than it not a rifle or a pistol and its just a receiver.
technically it can be built into a pistol
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if its others on the 4473, than it not a rifle or a pistol and its just a receiver.
technically it can be built into a pistol
So what rules or laws are the HPD following? Are they just interpreting the laws/rules to the best of their knowledge or are they actually enforcing a law/rule? How can we get clarification in writing?
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So what rules or laws are the HPD following? Are they just interpreting the laws/rules to the best of their knowledge or are they actually enforcing a law/rule? How can we get clarification in writing?
Their own!
So what rules or laws are the HPD following?
Yes
Are they just interpreting the laws/rules to the best of their knowledge
You cant AG restricts that for civilian.
How can we get clarification in writing?
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Would it just piss them off, if one brought in a detachable mag pistol lower with a 16" barrel.
And there is not a thing they can do but register it.
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So what rules or laws are the HPD following? Are they just interpreting the laws/rules to the best of their knowledge or are they actually enforcing a law/rule? How can we get clarification in writing?
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=13744.0
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16' barrel pistol
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Would it just piss them off, if one brought in a detachable mag pistol lower with a 16" barrel.
And there is not a thing they can do but register it.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/902960_2017723845937_798670135_o.jpg)
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Would it just piss them off, if one brought in a detachable mag pistol lower with a 16" barrel.
Since I plan on registering firearms in the future, I try not to piss them off ;)
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This is how I want to bring my pistol in for registration once i am done "permanently" attaching my mag :thumbsup:
I think I would also need to bring some "Snickers"
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/tomthebaker/Newer%20%20Default/20130920_113509_zps79c0bc91.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/tomthebaker/media/Newer%20%20Default/20130920_113509_zps79c0bc91.jpg.html)
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:rofl: 75 rd mags
HAAAAAAAAAAA! :D
That will piss um off badly!
:rofl:
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Headline reads:
Recently surge in AR pistols
has HPD crying foul!
The law was to keep these dangerous pistols out of civilians hands.
These ghost pistols are just to evil for civilians to have.
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Please use caution! ATF defines pistol or handgun as begin designed to be utilized with one hand.. (which is absolutely crazy as every proper, non "sport" handgun grip style is two handed)
Having a forward grip on a pistol, or just a place easy to hold, may be construed as manufacturing a AOW, which is an NFA items not not legal in HI. Come to think of it, I know that short barreled, suppressors and full auto is banned by name in the HRS 134, I don't know if AOWs are.. This might be a totally legal option but would still required a $200 tax stamp… Im going to look into it.
plagiarized from internet: (but I agree with what it says)
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.
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Glad to have your input OGC. If the completed firearm is registered with HPD is it safe to assume it's totally legal?
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Glad to have your input OGC. If the completed firearm is registered with HPD is it safe to assume it's totally legal?
Eric I don't beeline that to be a safe assumption because the guys at the window are not legal experts. If a cop who understands the law better saw you using it at the range he could arrest you and this is a gray enough area that the state probably could prosecute. I would refrain from putting any type of vertical or afg. Maybe a bipod type grip would be okay. You can make the case that the purpose is not for a second hand to maneuver the weapon but to set the gun down on a table to be stabilized.
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Btw I'm not advising the use of a bipod grip, I wouldn't put any type of foregrip personally.
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Vertical foregrips are a big no-no with the ATF. Angled foregrips were okay the last time I checked. With any of these areas you have any question at all about the legality, I'd suggest writing the BATFE as dogman did. You can lay out your desired setup and ask them for an opinion if that is a legal configuration. Then save that letter, in case you have any problems in the future.
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. Come to think of it, I know that short barreled, suppressors and full auto is banned by name in the HRS 134, I don't know if AOWs are.. This might be a totally legal option but would still required a $200 tax stamp… Im going to look。
Cater,
AOW are legal and are only $5 to transfer.
$200 is a manufature tax.
Is for individual manufacture not under a SOT.
Since OGC has an SOT their is no tax and would tranfer to the owner for $5 .
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I get the paperwork done and pay $5 to BATF.
Wait wait wait
Then I have a new AOW. Which is still classified under HRS as a normal pistol.
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I appreciate the info guys. I was actually thinking about changing my handgaurd to a quad rail to accommodate a verticals foregrip but I think I'll pass. It's actually not all that difficult to shoot as it is and the recoil isn't very much at all.
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OGC,
Are y'all willing to do an AOW and transfer it to a trust?
No Kealoha signature required!
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Intrested anyone care to translate to lay mens english about sbr and aow..please
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just found this - is this something that could help with registering at HPD and clear up some of the personal interpretation of the law/rule? ???
I guess the part on page two that states "if an individual utilizes a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action, they may lawfully assemble a pistol" and the part on page three that states it is "legal" to attach a Magpul AFG to an ar15 pistol - can this help us out in any way?
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af82/jonlagon72/atf01_zps07e2e6e9.jpg) (http://s996.photobucket.com/user/jonlagon72/media/atf01_zps07e2e6e9.jpg.html)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af82/jonlagon72/atf02_zps3773dce8.jpg) (http://s996.photobucket.com/user/jonlagon72/media/atf02_zps3773dce8.jpg.html)
(http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af82/jonlagon72/atf03_zps29795853.jpg) (http://s996.photobucket.com/user/jonlagon72/media/atf03_zps29795853.jpg.html)
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.
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ATF had ruled a perpendicular 90 degree device is a fore grip.
Id need to find that ruling and post.
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OGC,
Are y'all willing to do an AOW and transfer it to a trust?
No Kealoha signature required!
Not until we spend some time with our and the NRAs attorneys. We have to make sure not to mix and match federal and state law and comply with both independently.
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So if federal law states a stripped receiver that has never been made into a pistol or rifle is a is still a receiver and neither a pistol or rifle, where is the state law that says my receiver that has never been made into a rifle is now a rifle? Also can someone tell me where on my registration does it state my receiver is a rifle ?
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So if federal law states a stripped receiver that has never been made into a pistol or rifle is a is still a receiver and neither a pistol or rifle, where is the state law that says my receiver that has never been made into a rifle is now a rifle? Also can someone tell me where on my registration does it state my receiver is a rifle ?
It's not on the state level.
It's only a federal code.
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.
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Not until we spend some time with our and the NRAs attorneys. We have to make sure not to mix and match federal and state law and comply with both independently.
AOW are a loophole in Hawaii and is legal in name if it doesn't fall into the "assault weapon" catagory.
It's just a normal pistol under hrs.
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:wtf:... only a Smurf would consider a handstop a foregrip!
A hand stop is NOT a foregrip by ATF at 45degrees.
Must be 90 degrees.
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It's not on the state level.
It's only a federal code.
so does that mean my receiver is still a receiver and not a rifle in Hawaii? if it is, how does HPD have the authority to say it is not a receiver and I can not make it into a pistol?
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If HPD transferred it to you on a long gun permit , they have a case to argue in court.
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.
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Not a foregrip
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Now that I'm thinking about this more, isn't an "AOW" with a 16" barrel just a rifle without a buttstock?
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Now that I'm thinking about this more, isn't an "AOW" with a 16" barrel just a rifle without a buttstock?
No
Anything that is not a rifle or handgun by definition under ATF.
Pen guns, cane guns, belt guns, smothbore handguns, 2 handed handguns, etc....
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What's the ATF definition of a rifle?
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What's the ATF definition of a rifle?
Fired from the shoulders,
Handgun fired from one hand.
Btw the 1919 is a rifle, because the a-6 model has a buttstock and was meant to be fired from the shoulders.
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and for your AR pistol
(http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/images/D/ParallelWeb.jpg)
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17895&cat=292&page=1 (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17895&cat=292&page=1)
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(http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu212/ke6guj/atf_ARpistol_letter.jpg)
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(http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=27183)
(http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=27184)
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so does that mean my receiver is still a receiver and not a rifle in Hawaii? if it is, how does HPD have the authority to say it is not a receiver and I can not make it into a pistol?
letters above should answer your Q's
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upusknf6sA0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upusknf6sA0)
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What do you guys think of a magwell grip on the ar pistol?
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What do you guys think of a magwell grip on the ar pistol?
Gay?
:love:
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Gay?
:love:
:rofl: seriously? I think they look pretty cool!
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:rofl: seriously? I think they look pretty cool!
Just playing withcha!
I tend not to put anything on my firearms, not even scopes.
Plain Jane for me.
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deeznuts,
did the letter help?
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What about the legality of those? Being that they are design to accommodate a second hand?
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What about the legality of those? Being that they are design to accommodate a second hand?
only vertical 90degrees perpendicular fore grips.
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What about the legality of those? Being that they are design to accommodate a second hand?
(http://cdn.thektog.org/forum/attachments/f93/442d1315111786-mako-security-magwell-grip-atf-mwg-letter.jpg)
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Fantastic. I think I'll be ordering one.
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Could you just order a dedicated pistol lower instead?
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Could you just order a dedicated pistol lower instead?
Explain ??? . . . There are lowers that are marked "pistol". Is that what you mean? The registration process would be the same.
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I want and assembled an AR pistol because HPD and the State doesn't want civilians with an assault pistol or any pistols with more than 10 rounds.
Soon I'll have a Hawaii/ATF legal select fire AR rifle.
600-700 rounds per minute.
WOW will HPD go crazy.
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Could you just order a dedicated pistol lower instead?
If you are talking about a single shot lower, that would work.
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Just going to have reread this and related threads a few more times.
So:
1) Buy virgin receiver, build it as a pistol. You have a legal pistol, provided you comply w/ the "assault pistol" regulations.
2) Buy virgin receiver, build it into a rifle, then back to a pistol. You have an illegal "Pistol Made from a Rifle" and you're a Felon.
3) Buy any receiver built any way. Apply to BATFE to register reciever as an SBR. Wait for approval. Build it as a pistol. Now you have a legally registered SBR. N/A for us in Hawaii, so far.
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I want and assembled an AR pistol because HPD and the State doesn't want civilians with an assault pistol or any pistols with more than 10 rounds.
Soon I'll have a Hawaii/ATF legal select fire AR rifle.
600-700 rounds per minute.
WOW will HPD go crazy.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when you register that.
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Just going to have reread this and related threads a few more times.
So:
1) Buy virgin receiver, build it as a pistol. You have a legal pistol, provided you comply w/ the "assault pistol" regulations.
2) Buy virgin receiver, build it into a rifle, then back to a pistol. You have an illegal "Pistol Made from a Rifle" and you're a Felon.
3) Buy any receiver built any way. Apply to BATFE to register reciever as an SBR. Wait for approval. Build it as a pistol. Now you have a legally registered SBR. N/A for us in Hawaii, so far.
1 is correct
2 is technically a SBR
3 is apply and get approval first then assemble.
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I would love to be a fly on the wall when you register that.
Need some time and funds
But will post pic and video.
So far only purchased the lower.
Added
And ATF letter
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Here's the lower , already at the FFL.
Notice the 3 o'clock detent.
(http://www.spikestactical.com/images/prodimg/STLCFZ4.jpg)
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Now that is a thing of beauty! Looking forward to your further exploits, I have several bare receivers and at least one will be a fixed mag, no stock, short barreled firearm.
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So if federal law states a stripped receiver that has never been made into a pistol or rifle is a is still a receiver and neither a pistol or rifle, where is the state law that says my receiver that has never been made into a rifle is now a rifle? Also can someone tell me where on my registration does it state my receiver is a rifle ?
I've read thru this thread a lot of times but can't really tell the answer from the letters
I have the same question too. Can a registered "receiver" be made into a pistol ? ...or because it was first registered as a receiver using a long gun permit, hpd will not let you make it into a pistol?
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HRS has no provisions for handgun, rifle switcharoo.
It all federal, under the ATF.
Since you legally have possession of the "receiver" you can legally assemble it into a pistol. Again HRS does not prohibite it specificlly (loophole).
Therefore , bring your receipt , and the ATF letter on the first page when u register your pistol.
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I have the same question too. Can a registered "receiver" be made into a pistol ? ...or because it was first registered as a receiver using a long gun permit, hpd will not let you make it into a pistol?
Right or wrong, the last time I checked, HPD will not allow registering a lower receiver purchased with a long gun permit as a pistol. I am still waiting for a letter from BATFE that hopefully will specifically address this and allow any receiver regardless of how it was originally registered, to be assembled and registered as a pistol as long as it was never assembled as a rifle. Even if I get the letter, it is still up to HPD if they want to change their "policy". I will post any results. Daniel at Kaneohe Gun Shop currently has some lowers that he registered as pistol receivers for sale if you want the "easiest" route to getting a pistol lower.
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ATF have stressed in the past by open letters to FFL to not sale "receivers" to anyone under 21 years of age. As they may be made into a pistol.
Dog,
ATF takes exactly 3-4 month for a reply. I have not gotten one back sooner. Plan on it and post a new topic and hopefully Mods will sticky it.
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Dog,
ATF takes exactly 3-4 month for a reply. I have not gotten one back sooner. Plan on it and post a new topic and hopefully Mods will sticky it.
One to two months more to go. :sleeping:
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cool thanks guys
I'm not in a rush to make a pistol but it would be neat to make one out of the lowers I have now
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Just wanted to share what I found about using a Magpul afg.
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Shoot one of these ar pistol at the shooting fair last week. It was nice. To load it PITA