2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: oldfart on February 21, 2014, 06:36:16 AM
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Alternative Propellants For The 9MM- Part 1
Although I have not visited any gun shops recently, it seems like the supply of powder of all types is more limited now days. The shooters on the outer islands have it rough too.
My favorite powder for my old 45 is Hogdon HP38 or Winchester 231. When supplies started to dry up I decided to use up my old supplies that have been sitting around for years. Fortunately, I stashed enough Bullseye to last me for a pretty long time.
For 9mm reloads, I always used to use Hogdon HS6 or Winchester 540. When those powders became harder to find, I looked around and found a few pounds of other kinds of powders on my shelf. Newbie reloaders may find it difficult to obtain the more common pistol powders now days. But they may be able to find some common shotgun powders which can be applied for handguns.
For this article, I looked around and found some old shotgun powders:
Unique
Herco
Green Dot
Red Dot
Winchester Super Field
All of these powders are still manufactured today.
The test bullet is from Xtreme Bullets-124 gr. Plated Hollow Point.
I found these to be well made, low in price and readily available.
As of today 2/21/14 they are on sale for $93 per M delivered.
Here are the load specs:
9mm Luger
124 gr PHP
LOA= 1.10"
TC=.373"
Fed primers
FC cases or WIN cases as noted
Test gun=stock- SW 3913 (3.5 in)
Accuracy test gun= Br HP
Distance=25 yds
In April of last year, I did a project to simulate Hornady factory XTP loads:
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=7656.0
I tested the factory 124 gr XTP hollow points and came up with an average speed of 1045 fps from my pistol. For this project, I will try to approximate the same speed as the factory XTP load or slightly higher. ( I prefer a little higher myself)
Besides matching factory speed, I’ll also be looking for an accurate load.
Here are the results of the initial tests:
Table note:
J=standard deviation
K=case headstamp
L=primer brand
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This is a great article! My go to powders for 9mm 30 years ago was Unique, Herco, and Bullseye. I used Blue Dot as well. There are a lot of alternatives and I am glad to see you pointing them out and trying to help out those new to reloading. Cheers to you OldFart.
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This is a great article! My go to powders for 9mm 30 years ago was Unique, Herco, and Bullseye. I used Blue Dot as well. There are a lot of alternatives and I am glad to see you pointing them out and trying to help out those new to reloading. Cheers to you OldFart.
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Glad you like this. Standby for Part-2 uploading in 3..2..1..
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Alternative Propellants For The 9MM- Part 2
In Part-1 of this project, none of the test loads reached my desired speed.
So I did a little basic algebra and increased the charges for the powders that showed
the most promise. I did not continue with Red Dot because the primers looked scary.
Then the range closed down.
Fast forward to Presidents Day 2014:
Looking at the test data, all of the revised loads met my criteria for velocity.
For accuracy, it seems like WSF is a good choice as the groups appear tighter
and the low standard deviation in velocity confirms it.
Curiously, back in April 2013 when I dissected the Hornady ammo I observed
5.4 grains of unknown flattened ball powder. Very similar to the 5.3 WSF.
Could the factory load be using WSF?
So for this round of testing, I would say that any of the powders listed here could be used
for the 9mm-124 gr. bullets with good results. One caveat here, some of these shotgun powders are fairly dirty burning. So you will have to clean your gun regularly.
You can reduce the crud by staying on the higher side of the load data.
How is this info useful? When the pistol powder choices at the local shops get slim, you might be able to obtain some shotgun powder instead. Or perhaps you have a friend that loads shotgun ammo and has a 8 lb. keg sitting at his house that you can kakaroach a pound from.
When I have more time, there are some other shotgun powders that I would like to test out. Good luck and happy shooting to you gents.
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Excellent article! Glad that my poor aim didn't ruin your results...
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I finally started a few loads. I am a bit chicken Chet about it right now so I started at 4.4gn unique 124FMJ, OAL 1.130. I am going to go 4.6 and then 4.8. Twenty loads of each and test for cycling and then accuracy (problem for me at times).
What are your low and high points with the powders you mentioned in article 1? Is it similar for all the shot gun powders.
As a new reloadee I am greatful for your shares regarding the topic.
Have a good one!
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Ah...I should have looked at the photos first huh
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I finally started a few loads. I am a bit chicken Chet about it right now so I started at 4.4gn unique 124FMJ, OAL 1.130. I am going to go 4.6 and then 4.8. Twenty loads of each and test for cycling and then accuracy (problem for me at times).
What are your low and high points with the powders you mentioned in article 1? Is it similar for all the shot gun powders.
As a new reloadee I am greatful for your shares regarding the topic.
Have a good one!
:-):-):-)
I suggest 5.4 unique minimum.
At those low charges I think it might not cycle ...burn dirty too.
Let me know how those low loads work out.
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:-):-):-)
I suggest 5.4 unique minimum.
At those low charges I think it might not cycle ...burn dirty too.
Let me know how those low loads work out.
Burn dirty?? Does that mean I just gotta clean my G17 real good after shooting or does that mean I will ruin it with excess carbon?
Did I mention I a really chicken chet about shooting my own reloads. Haha. I let you know if they cycle or not and build up slowly.
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I use imr pb shotgun powder. For 9mm I load about 4.3 to 4.5. Sorry no pics to show groupings but was pretty good. Burns pretty clean.
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Burn dirty?? Does that mean I just gotta clean my G17 real good after shooting or does that mean I will ruin it with excess carbon?
Did I mention I a really chicken chet about shooting my own reloads. Haha. I let you know if they cycle or not and build up slowly.
:-):-):-)
You will see for yourself soon enough.
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:-):-):-)
You will see for yourself soon enough.
OK??
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Burn dirty?? Does that mean I just gotta clean my G17 real good after shooting or does that mean I will ruin it with excess carbon?
Did I mention I a really chicken chet about shooting my own reloads. Haha. I let you know if they cycle or not and build up slowly.
[/quote
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Dirty burn means sooty deposits and unburnt powder particles, especially in the breech area.
It won't damage the the gun directly as long as you clean the crud out occasionally.
Generally, hotter loads burn cleaner than light loads.
You will probably have to scrub the chamber more vigorously too.
Carbon build-up could cause failure to chamber.
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Burn dirty?? Does that mean I just gotta clean my G17 real good after shooting or does that mean I will ruin it with excess carbon?
Did I mention I a really chicken chet about shooting my own reloads. Haha. I let you know if they cycle or not and build up slowly.
[/quote
.....
Dirty burn means sooty deposits and unburnt powder particles, especially in the breech area.
It won't damage the the gun directly as long as you clean the crud out occasionally.
Generally, hotter loads burn cleaner than light loads.
You will probably have to scrub the chamber more vigorously too.
Carbon build-up could cause failure to chamber.
Thanks for the clarity my friend :shaka:
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The 124 gr hollow points are on sale now to Tuesday. Other plated 9mm on sale too.
Coupon=9mmPlated
88.00 per m.
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The 124 gr hollow points are on sale now to Tuesday. Other plated 9mm on sale too.
Coupon=9mmPlated
88.00 per m.
Is this for the Xtreme-bullets? Any places you know of selling the above powders you mentioned on Oahu, I may call around to see what I can muster up.
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Is this for the Xtreme-bullets? Any places you know of selling the above powders you mentioned on Oahu, I may call around to see what I can muster up.
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Yes xtreme bullets.
These powders are second choice if you cannot get normal pistol powder.
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Is this for the Xtreme-bullets? Any places you know of selling the above powders you mentioned on Oahu, I may call around to see what I can muster up.
Stopped in at WGS on my way home from the range last week and they had Unique and Red Dot. Like was posted, pistol powders are extremely tough to find right now. I'm down to my last 4lbs of N320, no way it's going to last me through this season, and last 5lbs of 3N38, those shotgun crossover powders are about all that's left. Looking for some E3, but can't even find that.
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Stopped in at WGS on my way home from the range last week and they had Unique and Red Dot. Like was posted, pistol powders are extremely tough to find right now. I'm down to my last 4lbs of N320, no way it's going to last me through this season, and last 5lbs of 3N38, those shotgun crossover powders are about all that's left. Looking for some E3, but can't even find that.
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My friend told me that WGS had Ramshot "COMPETITION" pistol powder last week. I never used that before but it is a really fast pistol powder.
Looks like a good choice for 45acp. I dunno about 9mm though. Maybe too fast.
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My friend told me that WGS had Ramshot "COMPETITION" pistol powder last week. I never used that before but it is a really fast pistol pistol powder.
Looks like a good choice for 45acp. I dunno about 9mm though. Maybe too fast.
Might have to stop back in and see if they still have some. As much as I dislike working up new loads, there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid it with all these shortages. Their load chart shows a fairly small margin from start to max load for 147 though, smaller margin than I'd like. Thanks for the heads up.
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My friend told me that WGS had Ramshot "COMPETITION" pistol powder last week. I never used that before but it is a really fast pistol powder.
Looks like a good choice for 45acp. I dunno about 9mm though. Maybe too fast.
Once again, thanks for the heads up on this powder. Have not tried it yet in 9mm yet, (but I will as soon as my 9 Pro slide gets back from S&W...again), so hopefully I don't get the :stopjack: sign dropped as this is a 9mm thread, but, just wanted to post that in .40 minor and major, this stuff works really well. Single digit SD in minor with greater velocity than N320, but with less muzzle rise. SD in the low teens for major, about the same feel, comparable to N320. Couldn't believe it, especially the minor load. Meters well, but it does seem to take a little longer to settle down with consistent drops when starting with an empty powder hopper.
On a side note, both minor and major loads with moly coated bullets were super clean. Almost no smoke, and after 300 or so so rounds, was almost as clean as when using CMJ bullets with N320.
.45 is next, hopefully the results will be like what I've found in .40.
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Once again, thanks for the heads up on this powder. Have not tried it yet in 9mm yet, (but I will as soon as my 9 Pro slide gets back from S&W...again), so hopefully I don't get the :stopjack: sign dropped as this is a 9mm thread, but, just wanted to post that in .40 minor and major, this stuff works really well. Single digit SD in minor with greater velocity than N320, but with less muzzle rise. SD in the low teens for major, about the same feel, comparable to N320. Couldn't believe it, especially the minor load. Meters well, but it does seem to take a little longer to settle down with consistent drops when starting with an empty powder hopper.
On a side note, both minor and major loads with moly coated bullets were super clean. Almost no smoke, and after 300 or so so rounds, was almost as clean as when using CMJ bullets with N320.
.45 is next, hopefully the results will be like what I've found in .40.
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That is useful information. Thanks for the mini review.
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Here is another alternative powder: Winchester WST.shotgun powder.
As the supply of normal handgun powder is getting thin, if you have some of this powder you can try this recipe in the 9mm.
However, I do not recommend this unless you are really desperate.
9mm
124 gr Xtreme PHP
5.2 gr. WST
LOA=1.12"
TC=0.374"
Primer=Fed (GM100 for this test)
Case= FC
Test gun=sw3913/ 3.5" bbl.
AV=1035
SD=23
You can expect velocity of around 1030 to 1070 depending on your bbl.
Accuracy at 25 yds was actually pretty good... see the pic-squares are 1"
Velocity deviation was not so hot.
I would not deviate too much from 5.2 gr.--the pressure curve seems weird.
Large variation in charge weight did not affect velocity as much as predicted.