2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: dogman on February 28, 2014, 05:41:55 PM
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This is how a magazine was "permanently" attached to a fellow 2a member's lower receiver. An aluminum spacer was made to replace the spring of the mag catch assembly and a stainless steel mag release button was made to weld to the mag catch stud. The button will sit below the receiver surface and is plug welded to the shortened stud. It is very clear that the button cannot be depressed to release the inserted magazine. HPD doesn't agree :( and compares it to the California bullet button ???... see "Post your latest purchases". Should we push the issue with HPD?
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So if there was no aesthetic button would it have passed?
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Nice work
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HPD does not have a written set of standards unlike the ATF. Basiclly, you just got one officers personal opinion. If its unable to detach , it's perfectly fine. If it's not acceptable, they'd must arrest you or confiscate the weapon, which they did not.
Slap any upper to it and just register it.
A 16" barreled upper on your reciever is still a pistol. And also NOT an "assault pistol"!
HRS134-1
........but does NOT include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, ..........
Once you purchased your short barrel upper just slap it on the lower.
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I'd push it!
Because they have no formal or any type of review procedures.
They usually bring in the ATF for their opinion, in which they follow federal guide lines.
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I bet this could have been cleared up just by letting the guys at the window know that there's no way to remove the mag, the same as if it were welded in there. And then offer to let them try to remove it if they wanted to.
For the sake of time, I see why kanaka didn't push it, but I imagine it could be done in a very friendly way.
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The main reason I did not want to push the issue was because the officer who came from the back and declined it already seemed to have an irritated, contentious issue towards the idea of us building these ar pistols. The two guys who were at the window were cool and could tell that it couldn't be taken out, it was until they started passing it around back there that ONE officer disagreed.
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When he likened it to a bullet button, and then gave it back to me through the glass, I kindly offered him to try and detach it to which he responded, it must be welded or silver soldered. Then I told him my magazine was plastic and asked if an epoxy would be acceptable. He said it was up to me if I wanted to take that chance.
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As I signed my registration and got ready to leave, I could hear him in the back talking about how if more of these start coming in they will need to set some type of written standard.
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Interesting. I hope that written standard is for their use and ease of deciding if a lower passes legal muster. The law is not on their side if they decide to use it to restrict people.
Most of the firearm registration guys at HPD are cool. Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Interesting. I hope that written standard is for their use and ease of deciding if a lower passes legal muster. The law is not on their side if they decide to use it to restrict people.
Most of the firearm registration guys at HPD are cool. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Yes, most if them are super cool guys and very easy to work with. This was my first experience with this particular officer.
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They usually bring in the ATF for their opinion, in which they follow federal guide lines.
We do not want that. 30 minutes with handtools is not a cool guideline to go by lol. Years ago, we were going to have a senator request a definition from the attorney general, which would be required to be provided. The plan was to provide the information that we think would equal a decent definition and then hope he regurgitated what we said. It's a dangerous endeavor however, because there are results that are possible that would not be so favorable.
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The thing is there is already a guideline. The magazine must be permanently attached. I think it's a pretty clear guideline. If the officers at the window and unable to detach the magazine without breaking the firearm or magazine, then it should be allowed.
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if i had to argue this in court, i would say that this magazine is not detachable even if it is using the california-compliant catch, and not the one pictured above.
my argument would be that, if the magazine was welded, the gun might require tools to disassemble the gun enough to load the magazine. the upper would need to be separated from the lower so that rounds could be loaded.
popping the the takedown pin isn't much different from using a "tool" to press the mag release button. in fact, there are instances where popping the pin is difficult enough to warrant the use of a tool to aide in the breakdown of the gun.
it would be difficult for the prosecution to argue that the magazine is detachable, arguing that the design allows for a detachment, with the aide of some tool. most guns that are designed for any internal or detachable magazine has been made in a way that would allow for regular maintenance of the magazine components. this is a design used by most manufacturers because it would increase the useful life of the firearm, and it allows for better troubleshooting and proper care.
in our case, the mechanism isn't any different using a cali-compliant mag catch which would require a tool to aide in the removal and reloading of the magazine. the law can't simply distinguish between the two without creating a hard and fast rule that either: a) a certain amount of steps must be taken for the modification to be legal; b) it requires the average user to take a certain amount of time to replace the mag for the modification to be legal; c) it requires a certain amount of difficulty to the average person for the modification to be legal; or d) the modification must be so permanent so as to not allow for future maintenance of the critical, moving components of the firearm.
i think the major line should be drawn where we ask whether a person can detach the magazine without the use of tools. if it can't possibly be done without the use of tools, then it should not be considered a detachable magazine. in other words (because i hate double-negatives), if the magazine can only be detached with the use of tools, then the magazine should be classified as permanently attached.
regarding the comment about the ATF, the ATF is a federal administrative agency. they don't really have much to do with state laws because they really don't have much of a say in what the state chooses to define as legal and illegal. the state may try to rely on a definition used by the ATF in helping to define words within the statute however the opinion of the ATF is nothing more than persuasive; it is not binding precedent.
for reference HRS Section 134-8(c) states:
(c) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.
HRS Section 134-1:
“Assault pistol” means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code § 921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.
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Contact the local ATF and ask their opinion. If its a no-go, its a no-go. If it's a go, ask them to send you a written email detailing how the pistol is authorized via ATF standards.
If you want to be even more thorough, go down to the ATF office and have it inspected.
ATF doesn't have this type of guidelines. This is some made up bs type laws. Permanently is also defined in the 9th circuit already by the idiot who tried making some sort of true assault weapons. Their standard there was basically 30 minutes with hand tools. If it could be removed in that amount of time, it wasn't permanent.
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The magazine must be permanently attached. I think it's a pretty clear guideline.
As much as people may not get this, you have to have a written definition of permanent (ours actually says "Detachable" magazine, so what defines non-detachable would be the question). This is why the CA bullet button may or may not work here; the only reason it works in CA, is because the government slipped up in Court and were judicially bound by their screw up.
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30 mins with hand tools? The design that Eric had and applied to this lower could not be removed with hand tools without breaking the magazine all together. Even by that shaky wording, this should pass no problem.
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If another of these lower receivers were built with only the welded magazine release button, and a few of you gentlemen with the legal knowledge went down when it's being registered, would that be stirring up trouble? Do we have another volunteer who will be picking up their pistol declared lower soon?
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This same attachment method can be done without welding. Take two magazine release buttons and drill both out so they slide over the magazine catch stud. Take one of the buttons and tap threads into the drilled out hole, what ever tap thread size you have that fits the hole. Cut the magazine catch stud so it's lower than the receiver surface. Insert the magazine, insert the catch, drop in the button without the threads as a spacer to replace the spring and epoxy the magazine button with the threads to the stud. The two magazine release buttons come out just about even with the lower receiver surface. With threads for the epoxy to grab on the catch and the button the bond should be permanent.
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I was thinking , if you forceablly try to pry it out with a flat head screwdriver the magazine should give enough to slide out of the catch.
The mag may be bent or warped but may be detached. For sure HPD would not worry about stratching the lower. Just saying it may be forced out.
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I'd say damaging the firearm to get the mag out = non detachable....
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I'm curious, who do you guys see/ask to see if these mods would make it legal at the police station? The people at the firearms registration window?
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I'm curious, who do you guys see/ask to see if these mods would make it legal at the police station? The people at the firearms registration window?
That's the only option I know of. It only takes a little plug weld to permanently attach a flash hider and make a 14.5" barrel legal. I do hope they give it some careful thought and come up with reasonable guidelines instead of one guys decision on the spot. What if the guy was off that day. Then would it have been acceptable?
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That's the only option I know of. It only takes a little plug weld to permanently attach a flash hider and make a 14.5" barrel legal. I do hope they give it some careful thought and come up with reasonable guidelines instead of one guys decision on the spot. What if the guy was off that day. Then would it have been acceptable?
HPD is not a rule making authority - it's not their call. I think that is the biggest thing that people should understand here. Someone else has to make the rules that they go by! In this instance, it would likely be the state AG's office who would have to provide HPD with an opinion when they requested it.
The big problem is we can't have different rules for different parts of the island. It's supposed to be one equal playing field across everything.
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At least they didn't confiscate the lower for a 30 round magazine inserted into a pistol frame
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That would suck
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At least they didn't confiscate the lower for a 30 round magazine inserted into a pistol frame
If the magazine is not detachable the 10 round limit does not apply. The 10 round limit only applies to detachable pistol magazines. They couldn't confiscate my lower because they would then have to go through the trouble of proving that my magazine was detachable. This magazine being detachable was the opinion of a single officer and I don't think the state would have been able to get a conviction if they tried. I believe Eric's original design satisfies the law entirely.
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If the magazine is not detachable the 10 round limit does not apply. The 10 round limit only applies to detachable pistol magazines. They couldn't confiscate my lower because they would then have to go through the trouble of proving that my magazine was detachable. This magazine being detachable was the opinion of a single officer and I don't think the state would have been able to get a conviction if they tried. I believe Eric's original design satisfies the law entirely.
:thumbsup:
You have stolen my thoughts and think as I do!
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:thumbsup:
You have stolen my thoughts and think as I do!
I've seen a lot of the things you said a while back that I thought were impossible, such as owning the pistol I'm cleaning right now, and they seem to be panning out. Thank you for all your advice Bradah suka. :shaka:
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I've seen a lot of the things you said a while back that I thought were impossible, such as owning the pistol I'm cleaning right now, and they seem to be panning out. Thank you for all your advice Bradah suka. :shaka:
Glad to help! and get the general public informed how to jump thru the loopholes.
Many thought i was crazy about owning non assault pistols and certain NFA in Hawaii.
researched these HRS and USC since 1997 when the Clinton Ban was still in place.
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I've seen a lot of the things you said a while back that I thought were impossible, such as owning the pistol I'm cleaning right now, and they seem to be panning out. Thank you for all your advice Bradah suka. :shaka:
Yep, thanks suka!
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If the magazine is not detachable the 10 round limit does not apply. The 10 round limit only applies to detachable pistol magazines. They couldn't confiscate my lower because they would then have to go through the trouble of proving that my magazine was detachable. This magazine being detachable was the opinion of a single officer and I don't think the state would have been able to get a conviction if they tried. I believe Eric's original design satisfies the law entirely.
Just curious where in the HRS does it say if the magazine is not detachable the 10 round mag limit doesn't apply to pistols? I wanted to make a copy but couldn't find it. And is there a definition of a fixed non detachable magazine as per Hawaii law? Such as the CA def. which I think is that the magazine is not detachable if it requires tools to remove it or the removal of the action
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Just curious where in the HRS does it say if the magazine is not detachable the 10 round mag limit doesn't apply to pistols? I wanted to make a copy but couldn't find it. And is there a definition of a fixed non detachable magazine as per Hawaii law? Such as the CA def. which I think is that the magazine is not detachable if it requires tools to remove it or the removal of the action
read the red parts in a sentence.
HRS 134-8
(c) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.
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NON detachable ammunition devices (not by the specific name MAGAZINES) is not prohibited under HRS.
It is not a grey area, It is not mention thus NOT prohibited.
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A henry repeater pistol with 15rd capacity
A revolver that holds 12 rounds in the cylinder.
Both are pistols that hold more than 10 rounds, but the ammunition feeding device is permanent to the firearm.
BOTH are legal!
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A henry repeater pistol with 15rd capacity
A revolver that holds 12 rounds in the cylinder.
Both are pistols that hold more than 10 rounds, but the ammunition feeding device is permanent to the firearm.
BOTH are legal!
Ok so say a 30 round pmag which is a detachable mag that can be used in a pistol which is illegal to have according to HRS 134-8 is fixed in the pistol it becomes a permanent ammunition feeding device. And being that the pistol doesn't have a detachable magazine it's not considered a assault pistol as defined by the HRS
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an unassembled pmag holds zero rounds.
The body is inserted into the pistol and the follower and floor plates are then assembled after its permanently installed.
Thus again legally the Pmag hold zero rounds before assembly.
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Ok so say a 30 round pmag which is a detachable mag that can be used in a pistol which is illegal to have according to HRS 134-8 is fixed in the pistol it becomes a permanent ammunition feeding device. And being that the pistol doesn't have a detachable magazine it's not considered a assault pistol as defined by the HRS
you are correct
:thumbsup:
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an unassembled pmag holds zero rounds.
The body is inserted into the pistol and the follower and floor plates are then assembled after its permanently installed.
Thus again legally the Pmag hold zero rounds before assembly.
Ok gotcha thanks suka!
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Its all a legal word game.
magazines holding zero rounds is also a loophole and I used it once at HPD.
permanent ammunition feeding device is the correct term to use.
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Very true its all a word game. that's why I'm puzzled why they didn't let the fixed mag release catch pass "inspection" there is no law that says you need to weld your ammunition device to your receiver is there? it just say detachable magazine as a definition for assault pistol so if the mag release is disabled it can't be detachable anymore
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Very true its all a word game. that's why I'm puzzled why they didn't let the fixed mag release catch pass "inspection" there is no law that says you need to weld your ammunition device to your receiver is there? it just say detachable magazine as a definition for assault pistol so if the mag release is disabled it can't be detachable anymore
ATF has strict guidelines for affixing muzzle devices on barrels for permanency. I guess thats where they got the idea from.
Happy building
Please post pics and join the AR pistol club.
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Permanently attaching a muzzle device requires a pin to prevent the device's removal which is then plug welded so the pin cannot be removed. Same concept with the welded mag release button.